Until 6 months into ROS they get a returning player, decide to take them into the final zone doing ROS progression and get them killed in the green mist because they don't have dragon 1 AA. Then it is realised that they need to stop doing ROS progression and go back and do 18 month old content so they can stop dying and finish ROS content. Mid/low tier guilds will feel it now, higher guilds will feel this a few months down the line when they start getting returning players that have missed EOK. Anyone who cannot see this is a bad idea, is not looking ahead.
I did not say anything about loot. Go ahead, hit ctrl-f and search for loot. Do it. See, the difference between the mid tier and the elite is you guys are in it for loot. Elite players tend to like RAIDING. There does not have to be anything in it for some raiders. The chance to play an alt (possibly already geared better than you) in a raid is sometimes enough incentive. Some guilds do not allow main changes or playing alts on raids so that is the only way we could get to play alts in a raid setting. Or possibly just for flags/achievements. Which you cannot comprehend because peasant.
I would agree there should be an easier way in ROS to get the blocker without doing EOK Group Progression.
That was supposed to be playing, my brain is frazzled. There is a problem with the green mist guys in the final zone if you don't have dragon 1 Achievement done. I've heard reports that the first zone is death at 105, awaiting on a Credit card fix so I can purchase the expansion to check the zone out with a group of 105s myself.
No not really, it doesn't take guilds like that very long to knock out that kind of progression. Not all applicants have had that character around forever for reasons and are still given opportunities and assistance to get those things done. What you don't think they go back and get their Hero AA from past expansions either right? Oh right that's old content and below those casual / family guilds to deal with, but the rest of the raiding guilds seem to find or make time. Left and right eyes, yep.....so tired of doing that also, but we do it for those new players that have made member and don't have them. DoN...MPG guess old content still does have life. Guilds that piss and moan about it non stop are the ones that have and will continue to have problems getting it done.
Omens of War was a continuation of GoD indeed. Guess what? Both of those were gigantic expansions with far more developers on staff. The same for VoA and RoF to lesser extent. Those expansions required MUCH longer time investment to get down, especially while current. Nowadays, even mid tier guilds raid 1-2 days per week in order to down all relevant current content when on farm. How does it hurt the game in the least if a player returns and needs help doing some previous expansion content? It's not in the games worst interest if elite, mid or low tier guilds have PLENTY of incentive to do EoK. For the folks that don't want to be dragged back to do it for 60th time, don't log in. Some will find it fun to go back with low numbers at level 110 or alts. Especially the returning players who never got to experience the content. I do agree that the amount of wins "may" need to be adjusted at some point though for the Seal
Not only do you have no loots, but you're still level 100! LOL -Rat ( and I thought MY Magelo was out of date lately)
I suspect you're correct regarding casual or family raiding guilds being in the minority. Look how many have been forced to fold just since TDS cam out. And now that raid gear only trumps one expansion old group gear as opposed to two expansions - it causes even less casual raiding. You have a way of twisting words. No one proposed "dumbed down" or more importantly "every single guild beating everything". That's your spin on everything, and I'll call you on it. -R
I guess I took it for granted thinking being at the halfway point would equal mid tier. But your right, we are a family style guild but describing us as Low-tier raiding would be more accurate (maybe rating us a 6 outta10?). I did mention low-mid earlier in the post, but left it out later. Either way, Queen/vault is the sticking point for a lot of raiding guilds. I can't speak for them, but I doubt many of the guilds stuck on Queen/Vault will be into RoS before May. If they push hard through the holidays and have active raiders, then maybe by the end of March. So which is the greater injustice? Allowing 1-2 raids in RoS open without EoK flagging reqs on release. -or- Family style raiders having no raiding available to them in RoS ever and Low tier raiding guilds having no raids available to them for 3-5 months. We raid as a 2-guild alliance with a few guests that we treat as equal members. I can't address all of our difficulties here in this thread. One of our biggest issues is retention. Both from keeping people within the 2 guilds but just as much as keeping people active within the game. Blocking out all RoS raids will not make retention any easier. People return to the game to check out the new expansion. No one wants to return and find out they now have to finish back-flagging their T1/T2 & complete a full T3 seal /EoTD2 before their guild can take a look at RoS raids.
Xnao talking big on how top end raiders would help these guys get the raids completed for free, but if they EVER "change the difficulty" by removing dps checks that once again have no effect whatsoever on these higher end guilds, the whole game will supposedly lose all the players in a mass exodus lol. You kinda wonder based on the "it's obvious as hell principle". This problem is nothing new. If what he's saying realistically worked, this wouldn't be a problem for anyone, and no one would have posted anything. All these saints that beat everything would be helping out on their alts for free just for the privilege of flagging people through an entire expansion that the high end raiders have already fully experienced with a cleaner crew. What he's proposing doesn't work. Plus with his crewella deville attitude it's obvious he doesn't really want to help them, but just to look down on them. No one could have fun raiding with that kind of guy =/. Who wants to fully commit to what xnao has said, get a raid geared alt, give it to another guild that actually needs the help and raid with them for no loot at all for weeks on end just to help those guys out. Let's see what his list looks like. If enough of you do it, I'll do it too. Let's see what the makeup is of that raid, 10 rangers, 5 wizards, no shaman no bards lol. But hell why not right?
Nightops, I just did some quick and limited research on your raid force. From what I was able to gather, I see you've had a joint raid force with another guild for many years. You guys also raid 3 days per week and have an EXTREMELY unique DKP system. Just based off those three things alone, I understand why there's retention issues with your force. You raid the same amount of hours/days per week of mid or high tier if not MORE, yet aren't getting anywhere near the same results. EoK had multiple easy raids and that hasn't helped with your guilds retention issues etc. Why then would more difficult RoS raids being open help? With the way their tuned currently it'd just be demoralizing to fail on those consistently instead of putting full attention on correcting other things holding your raid force back IMO. You say no one wants to come back and have nothing they can raid in current expansion. I say "most" don't want to play the game with a force they feel aren't going to be able to beat the current expansion when they hear their friends and buddies who play less or the same amount aren't having issues doing so for "most" part
I'll side with Seldom on fixing the dkp systems. A lot are really messed up. However.... Usually the guilds that have a harder time raid longer hours.... That's the price of progress that they constantly pay while everyone is saying they want to just be given loot and ignore it. It's dumb to act like they are "deciding" to raid longer hours just for fun. There's another issue and it's obvious. They lack something, and the fact that they are willing to raid through that lacking and take that extra time for even some of the same results is frankly amazing. Good on them, and bad on everyone that's trying to twist things around. What low end raiding guild that is struggling in this way is raiding 1 day a week? Let me know when you find your unicorn of an example. The let them eat cake lunacy is strong with these guys.
Reval, while I don't know of any guilds that raid "one" day per week that are struggling, I know multiple that raid "two" days per week year round that struggle. On flip side, there are also multiple 3-4 day per week raid forces that struggle. Many of them have a ton of the same similarities. They tend to be 1.) Weak leadership. 2.) Joint/pick up raid forces for long durations that never merge under one tag. 3.) Suspect/Inefficient ways of doing loot. 4.) Retention and lost of talent due to above and other obvious reasons. I respect Nightops for trying to improve his raid force consistently and take his posts seriously because he doesn't just say give us free trophies plz! I'd be willing to wager if Nightops raid forces merged, put the most knowledgeable folks in leadership(not the most popular), and began rewarding the best performers/giving incentives for good attendance..... All would be A OK with some other small tweaks here and there. No need for a dream team lineup of classes
I'm not sure that the new level cap is really going to help guilds beat the EoK Kar`Zok raid if they haven't yet. Levels will give them more HP and resources, higher skill caps, and base values to spells, but that's not going to matter much for the Aura of the Kar`Zok, preventing all ability to crit. I keep seeing posts that RoS raid gear requires EoK pieces to make, as if it were a higher tier within the same expansion. Is there no substitute piece to buy from a vendor for making the RoS gear, as with tiered armor in the past?
When none of the raid force can crit, alliances become very important for DPS. If you aren't in a high DPS guild, then just getting most of the DPS on the raids rotating alliances, and using them effectively goes a long way in getting this raid down before blockers. I still feel alliance spells were put into EoK specifically to help middle to lower DPS guilds get through kar'zok without blockers as the fulmination wasn't visible for months (and still shouldn't be in my humble opinion). It initially wasn't a parse spell, it was a bone thrown to guilds without perfect DPS to help them power through certain events in EoK. The devs knew that some guilds would struggle with an event in which DPS was severely crippled by not being able to crit, and alliances were the tool they added to give middle to lower DPS guilds a fighting chance. My guild is a good example, we are not a high DPS guild by any means, I would say we are somewhat in the middle. Once we really got on the DPS to setup alliance rotations with their fellow class members, and got all the DPS to learn how to use these effectively, we were able to power through kar'zok much easier back when none of us had blockers. Once everyone does have blockers, T3 is actually very easy, it's just breaking through that initial hurdle of getting kar'zok down a few times that can be the challenge for some guilds.
