Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Blitter, Oct 31, 2017.
If there's no lock, they can at least try to do one withOUT leaving the other.
I think it is a mercy that Ring of Scale raids will not be open to raid teams that have failed to beat EOK T3 18 times.
If they open up the Fell Foliage raid to anyone, guilds will just get stomped by it. You gain nothing, and it demoralizes you further. Some guilds would choose to bang their heads on the Cactus and fail, fail, fail and fail some more.
All that would do is distract from the real work and progress that struggling guilds will now be able to make in EOK.
Take a week or two off of raids in the beginning of ROS. Form groups and get your guilds to 110.
Get new augs, new spells from the group game in ROS, then get back into EOK and work through it and I assure you, when you get to ROS raids you will have earned it and appreciate your achievements far more.
I feel for the guilds who have been banging their heads against T2 EOK raids for months. It worries me that with current EOK requirements even if they beat all of T3 raids as soon as ROS goes live they will be stuck doing them still for another 6 weeks minimum before they can even attempt the first ROS raid. At least with ROS early raids being available without the seal they could start working on doing those while EOK raids are on lockout. Starting an expansion playing catch up doesn't bode well.
EOK raids aren't fun, except maybe the final one, but that could just be because its the last one and means progression is over!
I'm selfishly hoping that ROS raids drop full Charasis seals back flags so we don't have to keep going back!
What happened to devs wanting us to play in the new expansion?
RoS raids are going to be harder than EoK. If a guild can't win EoK why worry about RoS? The solution will be for Devs to add a newer, easier Hardcore Heritage raid in RoS next spring. Maybe 2 of them with nice augmentation drops?
No i was NOT kidding.
Not going to worry about your second paragraph as the EoD1 discussion has nothing to do with this thread really (dunno who brought it up, i find it ridiculous myself not to have it by now).
Ok, so you call this a "continuation expansion", something "new".
(something "new" need not be something "good" though too)
And well, i agree - already said so in my posts above:
It'd be something new:
It'd be a first if they'd SELL this as an EoK1.5.
Previously, we had two things that come close:
There were "updates" of zones added to an expansion sometime after launch, at no additional cost as part of an update.
And then there were expansions that kind of built on another (thinking of VoA+RoF here for example), but that were "true" stand-alone expansions.
VoA had the Alaran language as a "progression-meter".
RoF had a quest to max Alaran language in minutes, allowing anyone to take part and effectively backflagging everyone for VoA content all in one go.
As things are announced right now, RoS is nothing but an add-on to EoK.
It is NOT a "standalone" expansion (and as such shouldn't really cost us extra, but that's not for here).
So, RoS T1 is effectively EoK T4.
You have backflags dropping in EoK T2 for EoK T1.
You have backflags dropping in EoK T3 for EoK T2.
I fully expect backflags to drop in EoK T4 for EoK T3.
Doesn't make sense to you?
Well, can't help it - it makes total sense to me.
And if they for some reason decide to actually make this a stand-alone expansion yet, then i fully expect the RoS T1 raids to be accessible after only some group progression, as is usus.
With perhaps an added quest or questline similar to that Alaran langauge quest to give people other "progression" they require in the current expansion from an older one.
I actually think a lot of the "confusion" and uncertainty is coming from exactly what you call "new":
That they're wanting to sell us stuff that "by rights" should have come with EoK already.
The level increase was "due" with EoK.
Since the seal of Charasis was in EoK from the start (as someone aptly remarked above),
any zone/raid that should have used it should have been released at the half-year mark, as was done at least once in the past.
People speak about "the race" and other people feign ignorance on what the race shall be.
If RoS is to be an expansion of it's own, then the race for serverwide firsts starts for all - a clean slate if you want.
But if RoS will be released as it is announced and beta'd now, then i wonder why it's got it's own name, it's own "collector's edition" and it's own price when it is nothing more than EoK1.5.
In this case, the "race" would have to be considered only to be "on hold" (artificially of course) right now but continue (as opposed to starting a new one) at release.
We'll see which it's gonna be as the release date draws closer i guess.
More unrecognized Irony.
So what happened to your old guild?
Oh yeah, you mentioned in your reply. It dissolved.
Yes, we all saw the Seal of Charasis achievement. Some of us, me included, believed they would build off the EoK expansion and Howling Stones would be part of the next expansion. But did we all know that it would be required to enter the raids in the next expansion and there would be no other raids open without the seal achievement?
Since i don't beta, i can not comment on the difficulty.
When i did betas in the past, difficulty was massively increased each time, even when in (sometimes new) max level and max (beta) gear.
All i do is compare it to any other expansion release so far, with or without level-increases.
The race was on, people rushed to get the initial progression done before the weekend (and first official raid day in the expansion) and went on to try the first events of that expansion.
Especially with a level increase, events were always "harder" than the previous stuff.
That did not mean however "unbeatable".
(and new max level was usually a matter of days only too, max AAs was of course another matter)
To me personally, everything hinges on the word "expansion", and my understanding of what that is or should be.
As things are right now, i don't think RoS qualifies for that - much less so if the EoK progression is "seamlessly" continued in RoS.
But as i said repeatedly now, i think it's far too early to really worry - we just do not know enough yet.
It could still go either way.
I expect people to race to level 110 initially, perhaps doing RoS progression along the way.
I also believe in a more "sandbox" approach, even when i realize that EQ is not really a sandbox game.
I see nothing bad in letting people TRY new raidevents and bang their heads.
At the latest when another guild on their server will have beaten the first event of the new expansion they will realize that perhaps they "have to" go back (with their new levels and spells now) and gear some.
And between EoK lockouts try their heads against the RoS wall again.
But that's again assuming a "true" stand-alone expansion, not what i see announced right now.
I hear what youre saying, but you have to put yourself into that hypothetical position of a person thats in a guild that has not progressed passed T2 EOK. Now ROS opens and you get stomped by ROS raids and after finally admitting defeat, return to EOK with your tail between your legs..
Is this not more demoralizing?
Does this not open up even greater potential for additional guilds to collapse?
Does this not lead to even more quitters and guild transfers?
I believe it is far worse for struggling guilds to have access to raids in ROS that will just crush them.
If not now (beta time) then when? 5 months after launch? It doesn't really matter, they're gonna do what they want anyway but something to think about.
5 more levels plus hundreds of AA, like others have said, is a huge boost in power. Not only for DPS, but tanks as well. I don't see any mid tier guilds having that many issues completing all tiers of EoK raids once the raid force is at 110 with most of the new AAs. I think some people forget just how much power 5 levels adds to a character. If your guild still cant progress through the later tiers of EoK after the level cap increase, then you guys need to take a hard look at your guild because there is little excuse at that point.
That said, I'm in a guild that completed all of EoK months ago, and I'm still not sure I'm a fan of requiring the EoK T3 raid flag for the RoS raids. Turnover is the one constant in many raid guilds these days, even the successful ones, and the thought of having to backflag new recruits constantly in the previous expansion is not that appealing to me.
I can't honestly say which is more demoralizing:
*trying something and finding it "too hard" for the gear/organization you have
*being artificially locked out of even trying.
I see a semi-sense in lockouts withIN an expansion.
But i see no sense in lockouts ACROSS expansions, really.
Back in the days, we bought PoP.
We did some progression and eventually hit our wall.
But we were free to try (provided we found the mobs up - static zone spawns for progression was BAD).
We camped Lucid shards, did Luclin mobs and even others - occupied ourselves with something else and geared a bit in the process.
And when WE felt we were "fit" for another go at PoP, we went.
That's something completely different from what we can expect to date from RoS,
where it's (for the people you mentioned) so far really only sit tight and go somewhere else, if you "feel" (let alone BE) ready or not, until you finished your flagging.
Of course those people still get "something" from RoS and i am sure that will help them in EoK T2 and T3 - i think anyone disputing that is daft.
Yet, even in GoD we knew it was "beyond us" at the time, and we STILL went.
It took me YEARS to get into and beat Tacvi, but at no point did i have the feeling i was being held back by the Devs because i did not yet complete PoP.
I honestly don't know which is more demoralizing.
When the beta is not quite closed i think.
At the moment, you can see that many things are not decided, changed/added/discarded on a daily basis.
I said above:
Too early to complain.
Never too early to raise concerns.
So talk is always good i think.
But since we cannot be sure about anything regarding RoS it's basically one big "what if" discussion right now.
Only as we see more official details can we then turn this into a "if...then" discussion.
Flagging creates another issue. It means it takes even longer to field a full raid force on the next tier. The first raid of T2 is usually the easiest raid in the expansion to help raid forces break into the next tier. Now with flagging it means endless farming the previous tier so you can field the necessary force. With mid tier guilds, there are a lot of low attendee players, players that leave, players that return. So we will end up trying RoS T1 with 40. And you are saying that RoS T1 will be a harder raid to beat then EOK T1 was for 105s? Another reason why this is a stupid idea. It seems like the only benefit of the flag is for the elite guilds to laugh at the mid tier guilds still raiding EOK. But go ahead, feel good for yourself. This expansion will kill EQ, but at least you got your gear first.
This is like, the 24th time someone has said that.
What is happening on this expansion though is quite different in the way it is holding people to completing previous expansion portions (both in raid and group) is something that is totally different than in the past though. It feels different and definitely concerns me.
Though it is different, every time something new and different is added... someone does claim it's the end of the game.
If I were in a mid tier guild without enough members to fill a raid I would /tell elite_guild_leader could we borrow some of your players on alts to help us beat this event so we stop whining on forums.
I imagine elite_guild_leader would say yes. Perhaps even offer non alts. They are usually nice people and helping the peasants gives them good publicity.
IF the flags were removed there should be some sort of compensation for the people who are actually willing to do the work. Which would also make the peasants unhappy. Peasants are always unhappy and threatening to run away. This thread is a slap in the face to the players who care.
You should all be ashamed.
DING! Let's keep making it harder and harder to progress with less and less content.
The rubes that pay us will never notice........ Heh
A revamp of the Old Sebbilis revamp comes to mind here. Most of the work is already done.
Separate names with a comma.