Paladin Wishes

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Allayna, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. sojero Augur

    Draygun line has our longest cast timer, it's not instant.

    Spear has a cast time.

    Preservation needs to be compared to tylix skin, and has a cast time.

    Also should explain rest of the comparisons as they dont really make much sense.

    That is meant to help you refine your argument :) I would lose all those lose their cast times.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    The point I'm making is that Refute as the very first aggro spell is a bad choice. Start with FoD and your 're good. If you are merely attacking a raid add that is already aggro on someone else then it doesn't matter, BUT you should KNOW the DIFFERENCE.
    I'm saying, with others, that the spell gems you quote are terrible aggro and wondering why you would put that forward in the midst of a "tanking aggro" mini thread?
    What!? None of that is "bonkers" and We all (me, you, others) debated and provided data to the Devs to get those improvements. You're way off-base ascribing or denying credit due here.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    My mistake. Touch of Draygun has a cast time and Gift is the recourse. I withdraw Preservation (Shiftie called it Ward) from my list of instant cast spells.
    Yes but at 0.2s base cast time plus Quick Damage V (20%) can an SK cast it on the run? I believe so but haven't tested it.
    Agreed. I was leaning towards the fact of the recent "Increase Aggro Modifier" that Preservation got and compared it more to the Draygun line. Looking more closely they are all 3s cast times. Withdrawn.
    Much thanks. I picked spells from the same expansions that served the same or similar purpose at the time they were introduced. A good example of this is Valiant Deflection vs Insidious Deflection in CotF. They are both 0.5s cast times and I for one will not ask for Valiant to be instant cast, upsetting that balance. Other spells I listed (with one mistake so far), SK got instant cast upgrades at some point and I look for paladins spells matching those.
  4. Allayna Augur

    ... o_O

    I know the difference for hate override on initial aggro. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter, in practical application. For it to matter enough for me to load, crush would need a major boost imo. Near instant cast time if not instant would be a start so that we could tag on the run. Nothing OP about tagging a mob, and since it doesn't stun it negates the previous argument about being OP .... o_O

    The dmg component is super weak and the spell itself offers 0 self healing. I's not like we have an entire AA line dedicated to increasing our survivability off of terrors, whoops, I mean crushes. Cascading Theft of Defense AA line. Works on Terror/Hateful Bargain. Terrors are instant cast aren't they...

    Wulf...what I'm saying is there is 0 problem with our single target aggro if you play with your lineup and be aggressive and competitive AND I have little use for a spell gem slot eater that only does aggro....not aggro and healing (valiant). The lineup I listed will have you only making it through 4 spell gems before it's back up, throw a crush in there if it makes you feel better...
  5. sojero Augur

    It is .16 after hastened. We can get it off about 1 in 5 casts while running, testing in GH. not reliable at all when you need agro. terror is more agro, faster recast as well.

    Also, just as the others said about kiting, when you are kiting you don't want to do damage as you will get summoned so it doesn't really play a part, at least in no way I have really seen.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    What are you talking about here? No one said casting crush on the run is OP. We are all in favor of Crush lines getting 0s cast time.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    I agree that a paladin can hold aggro on a single target very well. I replied that I use a variation of your spell set to solo/molo and 2-box. It's a good spell set when no one is competing for aggro or as Yepmetoo said:
    Yepmetoo is right in that spell set does not generate much +hate which is the subject between you and him. Yepmetoo replied with the apx +hate of your spell set (its' weak) and then you digressed into defending your spell set and it's +hate generation. I pointed out that Refute is not the best choice to tag with because it lacks hate override. You retorted that it doesn't matter (it does) and here we are.

    If you are trying to teach someone to tag as a paladin, then should do not advise them to tag with a spell that does not have a hate override. It's bad advice and you should know better (and you do). There are plenty of choices for a paladin to apply a solid tag (with hate override) for initial aggro. Refute is not one of them. In the cast where the NPC already has aggro on someone, then and only then it doesn't matter.

    Using that spell set, you should be tagging with Force of Disruption AA then start your spell weave beginning with Refute. Refute is not notch +hate. Valiant is solid +hate. Censure and Admonish are both -hate (lowering aggro), apparently not enough for you to loose aggro to that DPS Yepmetoo is talking about. Rinse and repeat.

    To be clear, I like and use that spell set. I just don't claim that it's a super +hate tanking spell set (in a raid). Replacing Admonish with Protective noticeably improves +hate, trading some damage for more defense. The order then becomes: (FoD), Refute, Valiant, Brilliant, Censure (twinheal), Protective. That's my variation. I also sometimes swap Refute for Crush of the Timorous Deep (Timer 5) to add damage, when I don't need the defense of Refute. Refute is better for boxing though.

    ps: This spell set explains why you ask the Devs to remove the -hate mod from Censure line ;)
    pps: I've said that I do not use Timer 6 spells because of the 24s recast times (Crush and Lesson).
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    Thanks Sojero that's great info.

    Again I'm just looking at which spells SK have gotten over the years that are (or have become) 0s cast time and therefore cast-able on the run. From those I looked at paladin equivalents and made my list of recommendations to post in this thread.

    My rationale for Crush is based on it being comparable with Terror (+hate) and also Spear (+damage). For Crush, I want the 0s cast time of Terror or at least the 0.2s cast time of Spear.
  9. p2aa Augur

    Listing warriors abilities being instant cast time as an unfair favor is dumb. Warrior is a pure melee class, so it's intended that their abilities are instant cast. Comparing how many instant cast abilities paladins have versus SK is more right.
  10. shiftie Augur

    Except when comparing the three tank classes and only 1/3 suffers from interrupts while doing the primary job of tank/aggro dump. Please go away if you have nothing useful to add instead of trying to make this about your class.
    Xeladom and Maedhros like this.
  11. sojero Augur

    Maybe ask for an instant cast no damage/no stun agro like terror for pally? I see the devs keeping the cast times as they do 2 things instead of 1. I look at the censure and sk lifetaps having the same "effect" damage + heal and having the same time. I mean honestly I would love to have a version of terror on the same cast timer that had a cast time of .5 that also did damage, would be kinda cool. but i don't think with aristo limited time on spells that will happen lol, why I don't ask for it.

    I would also love an FoD ability, but I think that should be pally only as it gives flavor difference between the 2 classes.
    Xeladom likes this.
  12. p2aa Augur

    Oh really ? How do you take into account the massive self healing advantage that knights have over warriors, that shows especially in group content, and that there is really no more meaningful warrior mitigation advantage over knights ? You can raid with 0 warrior in your raid nowadays, using paladins and SK to MT Raid bosses without problem.
  13. yepmetoo Augur

    So you pick, as support for your argument, a mob where you are the only person on the mob other than a healer for between 90-180 seconds depending on dps upstairs? Are you kidding me?

    You could cast refute only and keep aggro on a mephit at that point. What possible relevance does this have?

    How about you try that on, say, GMM3 on the first add dps kills? Tell us how tagging with refute, FoD, valiant and two nuke/heals works to keep aggro off balls to the wall dps.

    And for reference, I put more aggro that you noted on mephits if I'm downstairs (warrior, paladin, cleric usually), and I don't get beyond 20% of the warriors aggro.

    I'm just shaking my head here.
  14. Allayna Augur

    Shake your head. Play how you wanna play, don't adopt my lineup, IDGAF. My lineup will probably change in a few weeks anyway. And my lineup changes event to event throughout the night, sometimes drastically.

    It was the most recent mob I main tanked for a quick log search. On the rest of the garbage from this expansion, I either see taunt (ty new taunt messages) or harmonious from SKs to pull aggro from me. Otherwise it's on lock or pulled from warriors/sks. TBH. What mobs are we "pulling" or tagging. Very few. But the Hate over time is nice while it gets to the raid. I start my spam line with attack on @ the mobs feet. Valiant > FoD > Brilliant > Censure > Admonish > Dicho. The majority of the aggro is likely related to Valiant and FoD, while the survivability comes from B > C > A.
  15. Bigstomp Augur

    Tank classes should not be trying to nerf each other. We all can tank. Some are better at some assignments but for the most part we can all do it all.

    All 3 tank classes are useful.
    Stephen51 likes this.
  16. Warpeace Augur

    Maybe its being asked to be removed by several Paladin? Why should we have a negative agro mod on that spell and as a community be OK with that yet complain about agro generation?
    Allayna likes this.
  17. Ofearl Augur

    Negative agro is horrible. Granted I used that spell line if I am not in a assigned tank spot, I use it for the healing part only.
  18. Maedhros Augur

    Nothing that I said is more dumb than your continued insistence that knights have anywhere near equal mitigation to warriors. You have a massive advantage in the disc/ability up-time also. That is NOT to say that I think knights should be as strong as warriors in that department. I think there is a fine amount of balance between knights and warriors in the mitigation department with the warriors having the CLEAR and rightfully distinct advantage.
    I am trying to state my case in the agro and self healing department, that most of my stuff has cast times which unequivocally put paladins at a disadvantage versus the other two tank classes in that we deal with a disproportionate amount of spell interruption whilst tanking.
    This is pretty much indisputable.
  19. sojero Augur

    I want to put this into context. All sk lifetaps except for dicho have as long as or longer cast times than your main heals.

    SK side
    Xalgoz's Bite -- dont usually have this one loaded, its a rarity
    Casting Time:1.5
    Recast Time:60

    Insidious Denial -- same as valiant line
    Casting Time:0.5
    Recast Time:6

    Spear of Tylix
    Casting Time:0.2
    Recast Time:24

    Dire Testimony
    Casting Time:1
    Recast Time:24

    Touch of T'Vem
    Casting Time:1
    Recast Time:12.5(10.5 with AA)

    Touch of Hemofax -- this one should only be cast 1 time (before raid and than forgotten)
    Casting Time:3
    Recast Time:10

    Pally side:
    Casting Time:1
    Recast Time:5

    Burst of Morninglight
    Casting Time:0.25
    Recast Time:12
    spell gem lockout: 3 --- the downside (most sk dots have this as well)

    Casting Time:0.25
    Recast Time:150 -- the downside, useable only when soloing from my experience

    Not really a heal, but in a way is cause it doubles them:
    Brilliant Exoneration
    Casting Time:0.5
    Recast Time:18

    Crush of E'Ci -- also does dmg
    Casting Time:0.5
    Recast Time:24
    Hate Generated:14956

    Crush of the Timorous Deep -- adds a tiny amount of dmg (should be more, a lot more)
    Casting Time:0.5
    Recast Time:12
    Hate Generated:19219

    The refute line for both is now instant cast, but pally got the upgrade of more agro per tick after the initial hit than sk do

    Now the spell that seems to be breaking a narrative:
    Terror of Kra'Du
    Casting Time:
    InstantRecast Time:6
    Hate Generated:14751

    That is the only one that has to do with our tanking and has a instant cast. As I have said in the past, the problem paladins will have in making an argument to make stuns and crushes instant is that they do more than just agro, where sk is just for agro and the instant was given to us so that we could kite because that is the role that the dev team wants us in.

    Force of Disruption
    Casting Time:0.1
    recast 9
    Hate Generated:16000

    as a PS most of our dots while being instant have either a 3 second lockout on spell gems or a very low resist modifier, same thing many of the pally spells suffer from. And until sk get dot revamps most do not load or use any dots for many reasons that everyone knows.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  20. shiftie Augur

    The difference is that while both of us are getting interrupted you mitigate at a much higher rate via passive healing. We do not have that luxury and the swing is that much worse when we get an aggro spell interrupted and then have to cast a heal that gets interrupted. It is a compound problem.
    Warpeace and Allayna like this.

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