Paladin Wishes

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Allayna, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. Overboard New Member

    Is it appropriate that Paladins have zero agro ability compared to SKs ?
    Is it appropriate that SKs make heal parse with their life taps and beat Paladins easily ?
    Is it appropriate that SKs DPS crush anything a Paladin can do ?

    How about the damn Dev's of EQ recognize and give Paladins proper AGRO / HEALING / DPS to reasonably Tank in Raid events.

    For sanity's sake already --- Paladins need to be on par with SKs with agro / healing / and DPS.
  2. p8aa Elder

    Exaggeration leads to nothing, though it gave me still a good laugh. Do you really think devs will believe you ? Like paladins cannot "reasonably" tank in raid events, lmao...
  3. Allayna Augur

    Paladins tank fine. We have fewer discs than an SK which makes us more "spikey" on damage. We also have less "passive" type abilities and abilities that fire from abilities, CToD fires from so much that an SK hits. We still tank fine. We heal fine. We can burn....laughably, but our sustained dps is meh.

    If we had a reduction in refresh on our 2 AA AE aggro abilities we'd be in a better "grab mobs" place. A third would be appreciated but I won't hold my breath given the latest insights by EQ developers. It would still be far less than the SK but would put us in a better position to do our job, pull groups of mobs off of melee/hybrids and priests.
  4. sojero Augur

    With how forthcoming Dzarn has been recently, and how he was talking about making/keeping classes unique paladins may want to pull together and rethink what they want to present to the devs again. Asking for stuff like moar AE agro probably wont get you much as "they" (Eli so that may not go in lines with what Dzarn wants, so might want to send him a PM to get a more realistic answer) said in the IRC chats many many times that that was the "utility" that the SK brought and wanted to give pally/war the ability to stand in when needed but not to overshadow SK.

    I know I have been trying to for a good while now look at the SK class without the thought of "oh pally have XYZ how can we compare" and just look at the vision of SK. I like to have fun on forumquest but when it comes to where to improve SK I try not to look at what other classes have, cause if I want that, I play the other class.

    With the riposte changes that have happened I know all 3 tank classes have the ability to ask for some stuff now, though Dzarn sees the reduction as a good thing for all 3 tank classes (probably to swarming) now is the time to ask for single target dps increases.

    Also another thing I think all classes need to do, especially in threads like this is to educate the people that may not know, and bring data to show it, that think things like the person you replied to. Thinking they couldn't tank, agro, dps etc, I think that would help the community as a whole.

    I know for SK I was irritated with Drogba when he got us nerfed by showing what we could do, but then I quickly realized, hes making sure we don't fall into the "necro club" issue that Dzarn spoke about and I was happy that the change happened. It is also why I don't mind sharing how much DPS SK can do, as I (only me, i have no idea how the dev team sees SK) as the DPS tank so I dont think it out of bounds to have good burst (hello HT!) but out sustained isn't the best as our dps stuff has 12 and the big stuff 20 minute timers on it, and to combine it we have to do 12 and 24 minutes.
    Allayna likes this.
  5. Allayna Augur

    This was well thought out, respectful and appreciated.

    I have been forthcoming with paladin lineups that increase tanking survivability and aggro. I don't think there's a major difference between the 3 tanks in standing up 1 raid boss. I do think there is a major difference when we talk about standing up multiple mini-bosses or add waves etc....or quick attention grabbing abilities.

    I attempt to dispel the claims that paladins cannot tank, cannot survive, etc because like you stated, it's not beneficial for the game to shroud in secrecy all these abilities. I've also posted self parses of tanking dmg, heal parses and dps parses.

    I don't think a third ability for paladins would encroach on the SK forte of AE Aggro....because SKs have 3 AA and 3 spell lines, one of which is not timer linked for loading lower levels of the same line. The AA are 45s refresh compared to 1:30 on a paladin....I think the AE aggro corner on the market that SKs have isn't threatened in the slightest by the addition of 1 spell or 1 AA ability or by shortened refresh.

    Our guild roster has 3 main SKs. There are 28 level 110 Alt SKs in the guild.
    We have 5 main pallies. There are 11 level 110 Alt pallies in the guild.

    This might have something to do with the utility/benefit to the raid a paladin offers, ie splash/combat rez/GoL/HealTT vs how drastically un-fun they are to play in a group setting. While the SK utility to a raid is mass tanking/aggro, much longer disc duration/self healing and dps so their is a need for fewer on raids. But the ease of playability makes them an easy choice for group tanking. Just my observations.
  6. sojero Augur

    I wasn't calling you out on this, sorry if you thought I was

    Lets look at current hate on ae abilities (with no agro mods included)

    Hallowed lodestar
    1: Increase Hate by 13500
    2: Stun (1.00 sec/113)
    3: Increase Hate by 6000 (x3)

    Beacon of the Righteous
    1: Increase Hate by 17000
    2: Stun (3.00 sec/113)
    3: Increase Hate by 8000 (x5)

    initial hate
    hate after 45 sec

    I don't know if beacon/lodestar gets extended and not at my computer to test it (never paid attention on the pally.

    Explosion of Spite 45 sec recast

    Explosion of Hatred 45 sec recast

    Stream of Hatred (directional, not ae) 45 sec recast

    Total initial hate when cast

    hate after 45 sec (second time to cast)

    Revulsion 30 second recast -- i don't ever mem this spell, it is never needed if you know what you are doing
    9522 to 10498

    As you can see, SK are not that far ahead of pally on hate over time. Pally have the nice niche of having stun attached (only effects lower end targets) and the hate over time aspect. Sk have more control of when to use theirs.

    revulsion line is what makes us stand out (you can mem more than 1, but goodness why would you ever want to!) and is what makes us have the ability to do more over time by a decent amount, not great.

    I don't include the other 2 sk hate abilities because they have damage attached and can not be used all the time. In raids to much stuff is mezzed i rarely mem an ae damage, and in group depending on the group comp, tons can be mezed unless in a ae dmg group, then sk really stand apart from pally/war, but thats our niche.

    Pally beacon is more hate on its initial cast, which is amusing, I know exactly when a pally has cast it cause it puts me to around 88% on the mob, and I let them have fun :)

    Fun in group game is relative to the person and has nothing to do with the game. MY wife loves pally in group game (the pally I use is hers) but she hates raiding, so she doesn't do that. as for ease of play of sk in group game, yeah they are easier to start out, but there is a huge difference between a well played one and a crappy one, just as there is for pally. That is sadly why there is a ton of alt/bot sk but a ton of crappy ones too.

    As to discs, sk does have one additional disc, reavers. Pally have so much other stuff gaoti and aoti and first spire that make up for that time difference (not including epic because it would be the same as what sk epic adds to sk for time and use). and theirs helps the group where ours only helps us, so if pally are not tanking they can add more to the group, where sk only has epic to add.

    As to the self healing, SK has the potential to do more I think, but the control ability of the pally is what makes theirs just as good. SK is very proc dependent and lifetap requiring double crit to be good and only healing self (minus some small stuff that we cant control, bite, theft, epic) where pally can heal themselves a ton, and everyone else.

    So this is what I mean when I say look at the flavor it adds, both do the same thing in different ways. Can you do everything you need to tanking wise.... yes, so keep the uniqueness of each class.

    As for dps, well thats where everyone wants to improve, so go on and get em tiger!

    If I am wrong, which I could easily be cause typing this between other stuff, please tell me how, this is how we all learn.
  7. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    You left out the small fact that the two Paladin abilities are on a 90 second cooldown once used - that matters. Also left out that your harmonious/concordant procs (we didn't even get an upgrade to our harmonious) are an AE aggro tool (PBAE Hate = 2,329) vs. our single-target AE focused proc (Hate=3514). You did leave out our Valiant line which is a nice improvement to Paladins since it's issues were fixed. You can't just gloss over the other abilities simply because they're inconvenient to use around mezzed mobs. We don't even have to make that type of choice because of the lack of options.

    Left out:

    Insidious Denial (lifetap + PBAE Hate)
    --- Lifetap: 4,996 / 5,246 / 5,508 (RKI / RK II / RK III)
    --- Hate: 3,885 / 4,079 / 5,508 (RKI / RK II / RK III)

    Hateful Bargain (DD + PBAE Hate)
    --- DD: 5,866 / 6,159 / 6,467 (RKI / RK II / RK III)
    --- Hate: 22,530 / 23,657 / 24,840 (RKI / RK II / RK III)

    Are either of those even capped on the number of targets that they can hit? I've always wondered if those hate values for Bargain are just typos in the client side file that is used by the parsers. It seems awfully high for the small amount of mana used for the spell (100 + 308 per target). The damage on those spells is comparable to what a Paladin can do to a single target without much if any trade-off in the amount of mana used for the AE based SK spells.

    There are two AE things I wish Paladins had - a stun and a direct damage (I don't think either are within their design ideas for Paladins though).
    --- The stun I would just put in place of the undead only stun which isn't needed (it shares a timer with another stun that works on all mob types and the current version has the wrong mob level cap on it).
    --- The AE DD would be along the lines of the Cleric tremor line of spells.

    I don't have time to get into it right now, but...
    --- SKs are better at spell based DPS and Melee based DPS (there are all kinds of little things that add up for the SKs)
    --- SKs are also better at single target hate than Paladins (even ignoring that the SK AE spells work on targets of 1 or more)
    --- SK passive healing abilities are better than Paladins
    --- Paladin mana usage is higher than SK

    Paladins pay a much heavier price with regards to their tanking, DPS and aggro abilities to be able to cast heals on other characters than SKs pay for their necro side of spells. Whether it's too high a price is debatable.
    Allayna likes this.
  8. sojero Augur

    I didn't conveniently leave out that the pally ones is on a 90 second cooldown because that is widely known. Its not like sk don't also have to make decisions of when to use ours, if we blow all 3 at one time its 45 seconds before we can use ours again as well. The point was, we have to blow 2 to match your lower one, and then we would have to blow all 3 to match your higher one so if you did yours on a rotating 45 second, your at almost the same hate as our 3 ae (one is directional, though that really doesn't matter) so we have to use revulsion line to pull ahead of pally when you look at it over time.

    I did leave out harmonious because I don't use it and I often forget about it. It is also not something we control, so you could say it procs once a raid (or pull in a group setting) or 1 billion times.

    I left out valiant because I have no idea what the actual #'s for the hate are that it produces and wont factor in things I cannot control for.

    Nope addressed those here:

    Insidious Denial has no max target in raw data

    Hateful Bargain also does not have a max target in the raw data, but it also sucks our resources faster the more it hits, its the only thing that I can use that I watch my mana and endurence drain fast with.

    These 2 also have our lowest resist adjusts so are resisted more than other spells. Bargain is also on the same timer as spear so use would also depend on the situation there.

    I mainly used bargain when swarming and it would deplete my mana quickly compared to not using it, its great for older content along with insidious.

    Yes sk is better at dps, not even a discussion really, kinda in the design I think.

    go add up the #'s for sk vs pally single target agro, i think you will be surprised. If you want we can send things back and forth in tells to compare what we see and weed it out then post it back here.

    Of course our passive healing are better, cause pally active healing is better. It is the tradeoff between the 2 classes.

    Paladin mana useage is as bad as/worse than rangers, and is the one biggest concern that I believe paladins have.
    Xanathol and Xeladom like this.
  9. AcemoneyFV Augur

    Shouldn't Paladin's be like gods? I think so. :D
  10. Overboard New Member

    The Paladin is a tank class. Yet, they do not compete in agro, dps, and in many parses, on healing compared to an SK. This must be addressed by the Developers or they're just deciding to make the Paladin a useless class -- the minions on this forum are undoubtedly mostly group tanks, or lower level raid types.

    For the rest of the mouth pieces who think they have insight, do us all a favor and the . The Paladin is an after thought on raids --- they splash heal (!) --- the Paladin is a tank class, the developers for sanity sake, need to wake up and give them appropriate AGRO / DPS / Heals to fulfill that roll effectively.
  11. Allayna Augur

    I think the AE aggro problem is being misrepresented. It's not about the hate, it's about grabbing the attention of loose mobs. After ours are down, we have nothing to quickly grab aggro on multiple targets from priests, melee or hybrids. The SKs have tools, whether you use them or not or how you use them is your issue.
  12. sojero Augur

    recruit more sk than, sk cant splash :) there isnt a single raid that i can think of that you need an sk on, you can do ever raid if you rotate the ae of war and pal, and there is no chance of other taking the agro off them if they are playing right. In the group game, mez some mobs or bring a bunch in every 45 sec and your golden, your rune from weap and valiant will make sure you keep agro.
  13. Allayna Augur


    mez some mobs... anyway, I didn't say we couldn't do AE aggro or that I have trouble keeping aggro. I think I've said quite the opposite actually. What I said is that with only 2 AA abilities and 1 spell that uses witness hate, we are far outmatched in the AE aggro arena and it's inconvenient to have abilities down on a knight when there is a literally a counter knight who has 0 downtime on AE abilities.

    You have gotten better at downplaying the abilities of SKs. Stun/Splash is a lame argument for paladins being weaker than SK in literally every other aspect.

    FD - multiple
    Fixed Invis
    An epic that actually matters
    You mentioned 1 more disc than paladin in a previous post but completely neglected mortal coil, 4 min up-time, convenient of you.
    In short...massive amounts of passive healing and defense.
    Let's not downplay Tylix's Skin either bro, literally a game changer between when it's up and not up.

    But I could see some improvements to the Bite line of AA and spells if you wanna heal tap for your group more, since that's what the SK base keeps saying that paladins have over SKs....yours taps mana to the group too ya?
  14. Wulfhere Augur

    I ask that the Light line of heals be discontinued. Instead continue to upgrade Protective line and remove the stacking conflicts on the Guard recourse (even slot 11 looks okay as it's fairly redundant with druid Adrenaline Effect).

    Burst line will very much welcome target type 52 (Friendly or ToT) change someday.
    Touch line would also need quicker cast time (e.g. 3.0s) to earn a spell gem with any regularity.

    I'd really like a new friendly-ToT group heal or splash heal, for raids.
    Metapsyche likes this.
  15. sojero Augur

    You know, at this point I actually just feel sorry for you. I'm sorry.
  16. Metapsyche Augur

    YES! Although personally I like the light line, I would trade it in a heart beat for some of these changes. Fixing guard recourse to at least not bounce Vie would put it back in my rotation. As mentioned before, if literally everything is copy pasted from previous level xpac’s and we only get one change I would vote for target type 52 on all of our heals.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    I like the items you listed except for these two that I have questions about.

    Timers 5 and 6 are designed to force a paladin to choose between stuns or crushes, since the introduction of Crush lines, and limit stun spell gems in a "stun locking" spell set. Even so, the number of stuns a paladin can memorize has increased in recent years from 2 to 4, with Dicho and "Force of" lines. I don't see a good reason to remove Timer 6 (or 5) restrictions.

    I personally don't use either flavor of Timer 6 spells because of the 24s recast timers. Too little power for a mostly dead spell gem. So while I do like reducing the recast time to 12s, I would want that on both the stun and crush lines for either of them to earn a spell gem.

    I think instant cast stuns are very unlikely because they would enable a paladin to cast on the run (i.e. kiting) and would be over powered. A stun locking kiter sounds too good to be true, not even bards could ever do that.
  18. yepmetoo Augur

    I didn't say separate them to different timer IDs. I said modify the recast timer.

    You can have two abilities, A, and B, A with a 30 second and B with a 12 second recast.

    When you press B, it locks out A and B for 12 seconds, if you press A it locks out A and B for 30 seconds.

    There have been a few of those. Basically, the big damage crush needs to have a faster recast to help with aggro and dps. We don't have the spell gems to waste in many cases for something with that long a recast.
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    Neither did I.

    I think you're saying to remove Crush from Timer 6 and give that Crush line a 12s recast, keeping Lesson at 24s recast on Timer 6. That means you want to load up spell gems with multiple Crushes and you don't care about memorizing even one Lesson. I'm saying reduce both lines to 12s and keep Timer 6.
  20. Allayna Augur


    There have been issues with paladin upgrades for a few years, granted we received a few gifts lately, including GoL, LoH changes, valiant fix, Hand of Tunare changes and in the coming patch HTT style heals from direct heals, all of which are welcome changes.

    Those periods of stagnation have left many of us to adopt new spell sets that don't use crushes.....

    I just hope that we continue to get the attention going forward into new expansions, as in our class specific spells that are given to everyone actually see upgrades.

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