Paladin Wishes

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Allayna, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. yepmetoo Augur

    You making odd choices doesn't change anything about the spells.

    Using Force of Timorous over Crush of Timorous when crush does literally 2x the hate, I just don't know what to tell you. I mean, other than jopals in stratos and birds in alishai (mearatas is an outlier as due to banes the spell set is completely different as long as you aren't tanking the boss), what do you need actual stuns for?

    Crush of E'ci is cripped only by its recast timer. If you have the spell gems for 3 direct hate stun/crushes, it should be used.
  2. Allayna Augur

    And if I didn’t use FoT either? o_O

    I’m saying I use a lineup devoid of either and have good survival/aggro main tanking.
  3. Maedhros Augur

    This is pretty mind blowing.
    You do not design a class around niche behavior.
    There are zero times in modern Everquest as a paladin that you must kite. Neither in group or on raids.
    That your fear of a stun locked kited mob even comes up is pretty silly. There are not enough stuns that are on different timers to keep mobs infinitely stun locked.
    That you do not automatically think of the massive tactical advantage that exists for the other knight that can snare and instantly cast spells while kiting is pretty disappointing.
    What would the tactical advantage to a stun locked kited mob be even if it was possible? Don't tell me that you think you would be able to keep agro off any kind of competent dps while you were 50 feet away running around kiting and stunning, it ain't gonna happen. If it was possible to infinitely stun lock mobs, which again it isn't, you would be far better served to stand there toe to toe and swing your weapon.
    You fear a reality which will never exist, that is incredibly short sited for a paladin that posts as often as you do in these kinds of threads.

    No one that I know of is asking for stuns or crushes or both to be instant cast with kiting in mind.
    We are at a clear disadvantage when it comes to tanking with the massive majority of our spells having long-ish cast times. Shadowknights enjoy many of their bread and butter spells being instant, and very nearly everything that a Warrior does is applied instantly via discs or AA's.
    As paladins, our agro generation is so low in the first place, every single spell interruption is a big deal. It means we have to battle so hard to keep agro through the spell interruptions that we cannot spend anywhere near enough time using our self healing spells, which themselves have a very very slow cast time while tanking.
    I've been asking for instant cast stuns or crushes or both since EOK and it is going to take many more voices getting on board to help make this a reality. Inventing niche unrealistic ways that stuns could be overpowered is very contrary to our needs.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    Lol, over react and imagine vividly much?
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    Let me introduce you to yepmetoo as he is asking for instant stuns. I provided a counter argument as to why that is unlikely to happen.
    Yes I agree and quicker cast times one some spells is part of the remedy.
    Yes that's true.
    Yes I agree.
    Ah now the reason for your outburst becomes clear. I'm not the one who's afraid of the argument. You are.

    I support instant cast spells and AA for paladins in these areas and at appropriate levels (i.e. parity with what SKs have gotten to enable them to function as interrupt free as warriors):

    1. Shackles of Tunare and Shackle line (i.e. SK Darkness line)
    2. Crush (i.e. SK Terror and Spear [focused level 89+])
    3. Preservation (i.e. SK Gift of Draygun line)
    4. Force of Reverence line (i.e. SK Bond of the Blackwater line) [and yes I know it's a stun]
    5. Halt the Dead (i.e. SK Darkness line)

    Uniquely Paladin instant cast spells now include:
    6. Dichotomic (a 60s recast stun)
    7. Force of Disruption or Divine Stun (with Max AA) [on same timer]
  6. shiftie Augur

    I have no horse in this race on the instant stun vs kite convo but let’s play out the logical outcome.

    If a mob is being truly stun locked why would I need to kite, the mob in question wouldn’t be moving. We could both stand still just having a staring contest you would literally be running around for the mere nostalgia of kiting. A stun wouldn’t need to be instant if my motivation were kiting.

    In the event you are thinking of a multi mob kite you remove the requisite “lock” from the conversation. As stuns spread out across multiple mobs does not a lock make.

    My only downside to instant stuns is that it would mess up my internal clock of timing that 20 years has bestowed upon my muscle memory for timing the cast of the next stun.

    Alternatively they could add a separate set of spells on the same timer that do nothing but aggro and make them instant as well as the crushes if we are really that worried. The only real advantage of instant stuns and kiting is the potential proc of healing light

    Things I’d like to see instant
    Ward
    Vanquish the fallen
    Crushes
    Stuns
    Halt the dead
    Audacity
    Shackles
    Nennius and Maedhros like this.
  7. yepmetoo Augur

    I don't know what to tell you. I have a hard time believing that none of the dps in MS are good enough at generating hate as to make it hard to keep reliable aggro without using the available aggro tools.

    I mean, for example, Tolzol and Behelit kind of make it hard for me sometimes. Eventual aggro (after 2-4 casts) sure, but by then they could be dead.

    I'm not talking an SK getting a fulmination which makes it near impossible to get aggro without a lucky taunt (since unyielding fails on most raid content), I'm talking about balls to the wall melee dps.

    Refute + 1 crush + FoD + valiant isn't cutting it. Dicho is less than a regular fast stun and has 60 second recast, if you're using that.
  8. yepmetoo Augur

    Your argument was so absurd I didn't bother logging into the forums to reply yesterday. Its a really poor strawman. I was at a loss how you could possibly think that.

    As shiftie said, if you're stunning something, kiting is irrelevant.

    The point is that our hate spells get interrupted, and the other 2 tanks' do not. That is a ridiculous problem for us to have.
    Maedhros and Brohg like this.
  9. Allayna Augur

    Refute as a tag. Valiant + Brilliant + Censure + Admonish. That's about all the spell spam you can get through with that order, you can click dicho as needed or protective if you're into that kinda thing.
  10. Wulfhere Augur

    I appreciate that you're all focused on tanking scenarios but you aren't thinking all that creatively (or haven't played a bard). The simple ability to be able to cast spells while moving is powerful. Several gems of instant cast stun gives the paladin the ability perform drive-by stunning. They can kite at least one mob while stunning and potentially stun locking another mob. That immediately doubles the paladin's ability to do crowd control using bard-like tactics (i.e. bard mez).

    That stunned mob may be in the kite or it may be tanked by someone else. That mob may have a dangerous spell that needs interrupting. Gained distance on a kited mob has a number of tactical advantages. Immobilizing a mob allows one to kite in a smaller space (combine with root for ghetto mez). I can think of more pulling/splitting tricks related to pursuit range. Shrug.
  11. Brohg Augur

    Nothing about those scenarios sounds remotely "OP". Those use cases sound like an impossible pain in the . You bring up bards and I will counter by the observation that their ability to run & cast sure ain't breaking encounters now, even with snares, mezzes, charms, and more in their toolbox, not just 24s cool down stuns.
    Maedhros likes this.
  12. Wulfhere Augur

    Yeah I was thinking of that too but decided not to suggest it since I'd rather have Crushes, not more no-DMG spell gems.
  13. Wulfhere Augur

    Totally agree and I've listed the paladin spells that fairly well match SK instant cast spells in form and function. I'm trying to make a convincing argument to the Devs who would have an easier time approving them.

    Sk have many parallel (core) spells with Paladin and neither class can instant cast those. I'm leaving those out of my list (e.g. Audacity, Censure, Valiant, Protective) because of class balance (imho). I'd be happy to have them too and would enjoy them while they lasted.
  14. Wulfhere Augur

    Refute lacks hate override so tagging with that is not the best choice. Otherwise I see a very SK-like tanking spell set for self healing and some (not much) +hate.

    My variation of that lineup is Refute + Valiant + Brilliant + Censure + Protective, tagging with FoD.
  15. yepmetoo Augur

    Is this some kind of joke? I cannot believe the dps in MS are that freaking terrible that you're telling me that you can use that for aggro. That is freaking absurd.

    Refute does 0 hate if resisted.
    Brilliant does sub 5k aggro.
    Censure and Admonish do essentially 0 aggro because there is a negative hate override on the heal that is almost as high as the nuke damage.

    That rotation couldn't keep aggro off a boxed zerker alt much less a real dps.
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    Bards have 3s base cast time for a reason (the power of movement) and encounters are designed with all their toolbox in mind.
    The core paladin stuns (Timers 4 and 5) are 10s recast (with Improved Stun AA maxed).
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    Refute Rnk III does 7900 base hate on resist afaik, unless you can show that a resist fails to aggro a mob at all?
    Censure and Admonish lower hate with hate mods from mask and Preservation.
    Not sure what Allayna is thinking either. It's a good solo/molo lineup balancing damage + self healing (like SKs Lifetaps spell set).
  18. Maedhros Augur

    Wulf, if you have to come up with absolutely bonkers ideas about how OP run and stun could be, its a pretty big reach.
    The spells that you mentioned being instant cast are all very niche.
    We do not need niche spells to be instant. We need our freaking high cast bread and butter spells such as stuns and crushes. If you don't agree, fine, we can all agree to disagree.
    Also, if you think instant cast stuns are OP, but instant cast root isn't, I feel there is no use trying to talk any sense into you whatsoever.
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    Maedhros, I explained why (parity with SK) I chose the instant cast spells I suggest.
    Crush is on my list of instant cast hopefuls.
    Instant root is powerful (paladins deserve some) but the mob can still act, just like with SK snare. It's not stunned/mezzed.

    You want to lobby for "bonkers" OP stuff like was done last year and paladins will again get nothing. I'm taking a different approach this year is all. I don't mind the Devs reading all this and drawing some fair conclusions for the next expansion whether they listen to me or another poster. It's a fun debate.

    For me it's easy to understand why SK got certain instant cast spells and paladins did not. It's because SK are a pulling/kiting class. Any instant cast spells that paladins get will be looked at from that perspective and not simply for "tanking without interrupts". There are plenty of spells that an SK would want to have instant cast that are not (hello Touch of T`Vem etc), for game balance. Paladins are no different.
  20. Allayna Augur

    I tag with Refute because it is instant cast and I can then roll immediately into Valiant which is amazing aggro after the fix.

    Maybe test it before you believe the status quo pally hype. At the beginning of the year in TBL I used a more stun based lineup as a stun locked mob is 100% slowed. Against raid bosses as the main tank, like I listed below, I go for more survivability without sacrificing aggro. But believe what you like.

    [Thu Oct 03 20:35:16 2019] You begin casting Censure Rk. III.
    [Thu Oct 03 20:35:17 2019] Your Irae Faycite Shard: Censure feels alive with power.
    [Thu Oct 03 20:35:17 2019] You are brightened by faint praise. You healed Allayna for 82181 (113779) hit points by Censure Heal III. (Lucky Critical)
    [Thu Oct 03 20:35:17 2019] You hit Dark Waters Sing for 75133 points of magic damage by Censure Rk. III. (Critical)

    /GU Tanking summary for: Allayna | Total Melee | Damage: 31384419 | Avg hit: 34337 | Attempts: 1412 | Riposted: 273/1412 [19.33%] | Parried: 24/1139 [2.11%] | Dodged: 15/1115 [1.35%] | Blocked: 21/1100 [1.91%] | Defended: 333/1412 [23.58%] | Missed: 165/1079 [15.29%] | Hits: 914/1079 [84.71%] | Real Hits: 914/914 [100%]

    /GU Dark Waters Sing in 767s, 61990k AH | Allayna 14483k AH | Cleric 11291k AH | Shaman 10003k AH

    I only included the 2 healers in my group, a shaman and a cleric for the heal parse. For context, we burn the top mob in smoke and only limited tanking and healing deal with the 3 mephits downstairs until the boss up top is dead.

    Not sure what to say Wulfhere, but I use it, and it works. (Good) Paladins are constantly re-evaluating their lineups and seeing how they can squeeze out more healing or aggro or survival...

    As far as the crush debate, the last mob I loaded a crush for was probably for DPS in T2 RoS. Crushes have been limited by timers and recast times for years and have fallen out of favor with me personally as the aggro generation does not warrant a spell gem, certainly not 2 as some paladins front load double crush.

    I assume everyone knows the spam key also includes the AA Force of Disruption, Spurn and Yaulp. The 2 other swing buttons could be dicho or a stun.

    As for the lobbying for "bonkers OP" stuff, I think we made some positive lobbied changes in the past year.

    Gift of Life - often a raid saver.
    Lay on Hands - completely redefined it.
    Hand of Tunare - never used previously due to silence, now used every fight.
    96% Rez while in combat
    Valiant witness check aggro - fixed as well.

    I'm sure there is more that I'm forgetting.

    I'd be fine with some bread and butter not being instant to keep SKs the niche "kite tank" even though that mechanic hasn't been used in quite a while. But making those spells 0.2 isn't instant, prevents running and casting and increases survivability. More ranks of Stoicism wouldn't hurt either.

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