Why is the NS-15M not being touched in the LMG changes?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. Scr1nRusher

    You would be surprised.
  2. Mongychops

    I still don't understand why the NS-15M needs to be changed.

    OP is simultaneously saying it's intrinsically OP because of 0.75x ADS on HA, and UP because low DPS.

    From the PoV of TR and VS, its differentness from the other low damage output LMGs adds needed variety. Without such a big difference the TR would have 3x 652 RPM LMGs, just like the VS AR problem, but without one even having something unique.

    Why can't we see what happens with the LMG changes first. Considering the buffs to the non top tier LMGs coming, it's possible things will be a lot more balanced. If they aren't I'd rather see a different nerf, like moving ADS CoF, than speed.
  3. Scr1nRusher

    The best way to solve that is remove 0.75 ADS off it & buff its DPS to 652.

    Sometimes balance is really simple.
  4. Takara

    How much of a distance does someone move side to side or forward and back in these situations...less than a meter? less than 2 meters. The change in speed is so minor and at the distances moved in games it's less than fractions of a millimeter difference. It's all math that points to almost nothing. It would only be noticeable in long distance moves. Not all fights are ADS...cherry picking one moment that makes it OP is silly. It's all smoke and mirrors. The prowler and Vanguard can move faster then the mag....they are the same class of vehicle...there isn't a wave of people claiming OPness.

    I play engineer...kill heavies plenty. People who think .75 is op are using it as a crutch for their inability to overcome. It's all conjecture as not all weapons with .75 are list topers....some of them actually show less KPU/KPH than guns with .50. And it makes all of the arguments presented completely uneducated.

    Balance is achieved by taking all things on an object to make it different but function similar in end results. For example a car with high acceleration and lower top speed vs a car with high top speed and slower acceleration. One is more useful in a track with turns well another is better on straight aways....which is the better car? The one that fits the track you are currently on. Its a bit over simplified...you can have a gun with .75 that is balanced...that is the flaw in your arguments. So far everyone has stated .75 is completely broken...that argument is just dumb. No one noticed it...it never exsisted as a problem tilla bout a year ago when someone decided to start a witch hunt on .75 because it was on VS guns.

    .75 Being OP movement is the PS2 equivalent of anti-vaccers. They are drawing a conclusion with no actual correlation.
    • Up x 1
  5. Scr1nRusher


    What if 0.75 ADS is factored out of the game entirely?

    What would actually change?

    No Crutches to rely on & nothing movement speed wise to blame.
  6. Mongychops

    ...but you really haven't shown that this is necessary.

    The NS-15M already pays for its 0.75x ADS speed with a; lower RoF, lower ADS moving accuracy, and worse hipfire accuracy compared to the NS-11A and NS-11C. The very fact that the non 0.75x ADS weapons for the TR and NC (MSW-R and Anchor) are more popular demonstrate that other stats can outweigh 0.75x ADS.

    When LMG changes go live, adjusting the most popular LMGs and buffing the less popular ones, we can then re-appraise the NS-15M and see whether it is too popular. There are still plenty of tweaks that can be done to adjust it. Something as simple as a FSRM increase (2.0x up around 2.25x to 2.4x) would rein in the HSR wizards. Reducing weapon diversity should be a last resort, there are far too many TR & VS near duplicates already.
  7. Scr1nRusher

    Think of it this way.

    Currently(Pre-LMG changes) there are 4 0.75 ADS LMG's in the game:

    • Orion
    • BG
    • SVA-88
    • NS-15m(and its almost 15 re-skins)

    Post LMG changes there will be 1 0.75 ADS LMG:

    • NS-15M(and its almost 15 re-skins)

    DBG should have honestly just got rid off 0.75 ADS on LMG's in 1 fell swoop instead of only doing the VS LMG's that have it.

    You just compared a LMG to a Carbine & AR.............

    But look at what you just said.

    0.75 ADS on the NS-15M has hurt it.

    Lower ROF(which can be buffed to 652 RPM) is the biggest issue it faces. Other then that its a solid weapon.

    You are forgetting that the VS Orion is usually phased out for the BG, skewing the numbers.

    Its not about popularity or diversity its about getting the job fully done.

    If 4 LMG's have 0.75 ADS, and you are removing 0.75 ADS from 3 of them leaving 1 left over, the jobs not finished.
  8. FrozenCustard

    I'm 100% fine with the NS-15m having .75x ads movement speed, as that's its gimmick when compared to the Bull and isn't a high fire rate CQC powerhouse like the pr0rion. If it got its .75x taken away it would be to similar to weapons such as the Bull.
    • Up x 1
  9. Scr1nRusher

    Hold on.. let me get this straight.

    People say the Bull is bad.

    But agree the NS-15M is good.

    SO WHAT IS IT PEOPLE??????????

    If you take 0.75 ADS off the NS-15M & buff its RPM to 652 its not going to be a bad weapon.
  10. Mongychops

    Yes, I did, because the difference between a medic and a HA in combat is the effectiveness of overshield compared to self-heal. Therefore comparing the NS-11A and the NS-15M can be done when you bear in mind the innate strengths of the class they are on.

    All weapons have good attributes and downsides, plenty of weapons have a gimmick that costs it dearly elsewhere, on most other weapons 0.75x ADS is paid for with nerfs to accuracy (eg Carnage, Zenith). Having downsides for 0.75x is perfectly fine, and plenty of people use the weapon anyway. The only problem is if too many use it.

    What are you talking about? I was saying that for the TR and NC, rather than the NS-15M being the best and most used LMG because they don't have a 0.75x ADS ESLMG, actually far more people use the MSW-R and Anchor, because they prefer the lower TTK. Which is proof on live it is possible to have a 0.75x ADS weapon for the HA which doesn't beat out all competition.

    You haven't demonstrated that there is a "job" that needs doing, the VS LMGs with 0.75x ADS were far higher RoF than the NS-15M, add in the fact that the NS-15M is available to all factions, and I completely fail to see the urgency to deal with a problem you seem to have invented.

    Diversity is absolutely a problem, part of the purpose of the upcoming LMG changes is to try and get more players using the other LMGs than the current favourites by better differentiating the LMGs in role. Having LMG arsenals that basically consists of mid-low RoF 143 damage weapons with no standout features does not help this.

    Seeing how the currently proposed mix of buffs and nerfs changes things, and then looking to see what needs to be done is a better approach.
    • Up x 1
  11. Scr1nRusher

    Name every single NS-15M Variant in the game.
  12. Iridar51

    Well then if it's nothing you're not gonna lose anything when it's removed.

    Faulty argument is faulty.

    • Up x 1
  13. FateJH

    But, if that is the case, removing it isn't going to accomplish anything either; ergo, as the argument goes, there would be no reason to remove it, and efforts to improve the 15M would be better spent elsewhere.
  14. FrozenCustard

    If you take away its .75 ADS and increase the RPM to 652 it's just going to be a worse T32 Bull.
  15. Scr1nRusher

    Boo hoo....

    Also you should really compare stats of the weapons,especially after the LMG changes.
  16. Iridar51

    There is a reason. Some people want it to happen, because they feel it has a negative impact on the game. If there are people who don't want it to happen, it's on them to prove why it shouldn't happen. "It's not an issue for me, so it's not an issue for everyone else" is a crappy logic.
    • Up x 1
  17. CorporationUSA

    I would basically make it the current Orion and bathe in VS tears.
  18. FateJH

    And so is changing it because people complain. People will always complain about something. That's the nature of people.

    You'll never convince me of that that the onerous is mine when I am not the one making the initial argument. Inertia dictates you have the case to prove. "We have to change it to make it better?" That's not your reason. If the solution does not involve removing 0.75 ADS, you'd never agree to it, even if it would make it better in a good way, if I may project onto you.

    The 15M is not causing an observable problem, it is equally popular across all factions and BRs, and any demand that it be adjusted should come with a reason that must be articulate, logical, and carry evidence that the change itself addresses the issue brought forth. Underperformance must be proven, if that is the reason, and I will still argue underperformance does not mean we play "let's trade things" but "let's improve things." I do not support changing things without good reason, and is the bane of how the development of this game has been carried out in the past.
    • Up x 1
  19. Scr1nRusher

    Its still part of the proven issue of 0.75 ADS being on a LMG.

    After the LMG changes its going to be the only 0.75 ADS LMG to not get 0.75 ADS removed.

    So the "issue" of 0.75 ADS being on a LMG is still going to persist until its removed off the NS-15M post LMG changes.
  20. FateJH

    There is no proven issue. You just keep saying there is an issue but "you" are not something we can render into proveable evidence. Building arguments based on tautologies - "the issue with 0.75 ADS LMGs is that there are LMGs with 0.75 ADS" - just lead to specious argument.

    I liked your petition for traditional class structure better but, even then, I'd rather we actually get the developers to agree to adopt the classical structure before we implement the feature nickle and diming. The horse before the cart.