Why is the NS-15M not being touched in the LMG changes?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. Iridar51

    And arguments have been made. 75% ADS on LMGs removes the primary downside of HA ability, the class already overloaded with advantages in form of AV capabilities, meaning it sacrifices little by carrying medkits instead of C4, which also frees up implant slot for something combat enhancing, and large magazines, which is also a big advantage.

    Mobility is not HA trait, nor it is VS trait, nor it should be "NS trait", when NS isn't even a faction, so there's no faction balance to preserve.

    That doesn't require proving. Hard, datamined movement speed stats have been presented, and I don't think I need to prove that HA can use rocket launcher and that LMGs have large magazines.

    75% ADS on LMGs adds to the long list of advantages of HA class, which increases its popularity beyond healthy, and breeds a special kind of players who only pick HA to easily win 1 v 1 fights and feel cool about it, when it should not even be what the game is about. 75% ADS on LMGs is harmful for the game and should be removed.

    I'm not saying anything new here, all of that has been said previously, by many different people, many times over. That's the arguments we stand on.

    One of the counterarguments was "nope, you're wrong, 75% ADS does nothing". This counterargument collapses in on itself. If it does nothing, then the one who made that counterargument has no stake, and no reason to oppose changes.

    Another laughable counterargument was "75% ADS only does something at X range". Who the **** cares? It's still an undeserved advantage.
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  2. Scr1nRusher


    4 LMG's in PS2 have 0.75 ADS.

    After the LMG changes only 1 LMG(which has like 10 re-skins......) will have 0.75 ADS.

    That strikes me as a unfinished job.

    Why do 3/4th's of the work?

    0.75 ADS should be off the LMG weapon type for good.
  3. FateJH

    If that's the case, then there is an equally simple solution, one that also impacts any future movement modifications that can be made to the classes: "the Heavy Shield movement penalty overrides all other movement modifiers." This is similar to the Resist Stacking problem of yore and can easily be solved in exactly the same way. Unlike the Resist Stacking issue, we also don't have to affect Infiltrators (e.g., Nano-Armor Cloak).

    While that does affect individual player mindsets in the game, is that going to stop our said player from then finding the next class that allows him to do the same thing, if Heavy Assault is no longer his go-to? Are we going to play games of "finding the ***** in the FTOM class's armor" until the selfish player moves onto the next class that he feels lets him own 1v1, and continue to do so with each subsequent class?
  4. FateJH


    If the developers explicitly stated that they wanted to remove 0.75 ADS from all LMGS, and then left the 0.75 ADS on the 15M, then it would be a 3/4ths job.

    What you think and what they think are separate things. If what the developers have stated and what you want coincide, then that's a different story.

    (I also don't trust PTS for any definitive anymore. Things that the playerbase, in whole or part, have wanted go there to die, while things that the playerbase didn't want, in whole or in part, get promoted from there without change and with little rhyme or reason as to when one or the other will happen. And some things have just skipped PTS altogether, so I suppose you can hope for that.)
  5. Scr1nRusher

    Thats exactly what they did & why I've made this post in the first place.

    They did remove 0.75 ADS off all ES LMG's(Orion,SVA-88,BG), but not all LMG's(NS-15M).
  6. FateJH

    They did say this? I admit to not perusing the Reddit for PlanetSide 2; and, I rarely pay attention to the Twitter feed. There might be something in Announcements but, if you could forward me to the place/thread/source where I could read where they discussed removing 0.75 ADS from all LMGs, then I shall politely bow out of this thread.
  7. Scr1nRusher

    I literally just explained it & Bolded/Underlined it

    I'm not BSing what so ever.

    They finished the job, but didn't finish the job.
  8. FateJH

    So they didn't actually state it explicitly anywhere?
  9. Iridar51

    1) It still provides the mobility advantage to the class that should not have mobility, even if it's while the overshield is offline.

    2) NMG and Adrenaline, the most popular variants of the overshield, only slow down the user while they provide the benefit. They shut down after expending energy, and HA is sonic the hedgehog again, despite already taxing in fully on the overshield advantage.

    In other words, it would be okay with resist shield. You'd have to choose, either you move fast, or you take less damage. There is no choice like that with NMG / Adrenaline. Activate until you expend energy, and move freely afterwards.
    You're mixing up cause and effect. Effect - that players switch to HA - I only mentioned to prove the existence of the cause - HA class is objectively too strong.

    "Play HA if you actually want to kill enemies in this FPS game" is what people say, and they're not wrong. The game is very near the stage "play HA or don't bother".

    While I strongly feel that 75% ADS is not a trait that a single LMG should have, it's not the real culprit, of course. It's the HA shield ability, but that's another topic.
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  10. TombsClawtooth

    It's called wishful thinking.

    No they never stated anything of the sort. This individual is trying to prop up his argument through fabrication.
  11. FateJH

    This is sort of what I was arguing with Scr1nRusher about "traditional class system," where "heavy" characters who tank move slowly and "light" classes that make less health move quickly. We don't have that at the moment; and, we're not going to get there by nickle and diming our way through the classes. It needs to be a concerted effort to modify everything. In fact, under the current flat system, it's an insult that the Infiltrator has 100 less shields when no other class is affected in some way but that's another debate for another thread. Puting that discrepancy aside, all classes have the same basic health before class perks; all classes have the same basic defense before class perks; even the weapon systems they use are similar to each other in respects, or they have access to said simialr weapons; we're not under obligations to say that anything is off the table when the only thing we're really balanced around are our class specific abilities.
    I'm trying to avoid framing it in cause and effect terms. I merely wish to establish whether you are implicating the Heavy Assault because everyone uses it because it is strong individually, and whether you would apply the same implication to another class should the "individualists" flock to it because it becomes stronger than the HA?
  12. Scr1nRusher

    They removed 0.75 ADS off the ES LMG's that had it.

    But they haven't yet on the NS LMG that has it.
  13. Takara

    You quoted me and edited my words....don't do that any argument you have made is invalid when you physically change my post and quote it.

    I've said it several times....taking away all .75 isn't really going to change it much. But it is a nerf...a gun with that stat being taken away means it's losing something....to balance it out it has to be given something. If you are saying .75 is broken OP but some of the guns that have it are under preforming compared to guns that don't have it....then just removing it means those guns are lacking in all other stats and the .75 was helping it keep up by your own logic.

    I'm not saying it's worthless, I've never once argued that...never in the history of the conversion. My argument is that it is such a small number increase over .50 that it isn't the culprit in why the gun is so effective. You can make the number seem large by saying .75 is 50% more than .50. But the numbers it's used to calculate are relatively small. I would in fact suggest your giant problem with the guns come from different metrics. Perhaps the gun has to good of a shot spread or it's ROF might be mildly high considering it's recoil. But to say the guns break the game because the class using it moved a fraction of a step faster then the other guy well aiming down the sight seems more than a little outrageously silly.

    But none of that matters cuz you totally win arguments with /thread.
  14. Scr1nRusher

    0.75 ADS is something that shouldn't be on a LMG.

    That weapon type isn't about movement, its about longer duration's of firepower compared to other weapon choices.
  15. Takara

    What people feel and the truth are different things....changing something that would be irrelevant that doesn't actually solve the problem would be worse...that is poor management. It would be better to invest time in an actual solution and inform people then letting the black hole of misinformation create a panic about something. Like I said...people heard it was OP and they want it nerfed. Well...I heard the GK is op...therefore nerf? See how that works? It's a bad way to balance items...it leads to things like current ZoE, Fracture, and versions of the Striker. This is what we are trying to avoid by not blindly throwing blame on something there isn't really any evidence for. All you are really doing is sucking something that can be used to help design new or old weapons...removing potential flavor from the game.

    I've yet to see a single video showing a .75 heavy next to a .50 heavy ADADADing Black em out so people would have to guess which one is moving faster. I would guess the difference is so minimal it would be near impossible to tell....or so minimal even Ray Charles could keep up with it. It may even prove me wrong...I will be the honest guy here and tell you i don't know. But if I can track a guy sprinting at full speed doing ZigZags in the fieldwhich is WAY faster then a heavy with .75 then I shouldn't have much of an issue with him walking slower at .75 :p
  16. JojoTheSlayer

    When you mainly try to back up your "claims" with insults. It says more about you, than me.
    It also gives a strong indication that you ether are immature or down right dont have full confidence in your own statements.
  17. Scr1nRusher

  18. Takara

    You have the right to believe that...but editing my words when you quote me is something someone does when they try to manipulate the truth. So it makes me unwilling to really trust you.

    Second...there is no rule that says that. In every other war game out there they don't make LMG classes move slower....why is it suddenly a rule here? Your argument just says it doesn't belong there....but your only evidence for that is yoru own personal feeling and you have yet to explain why it can't belong there. Or shown us how or why it's op... Most Terran guns have 133.33% more AMMO then NC TR weapons...looks like a pretty massive number but it's only ten rounds :p less than a half second of fire really.
  19. Scr1nRusher

    I edited it for a reason.

    See, 0.75 ADS is a crutch that people defend if they use/abuse it & is something that people point fingers towards.

    Lets cover the basic facts.

    1) This game has hit detection/netcode issues.

    2) The infantry in this game have no inertia/weight physics.

    3) SOE made alot of poor decisions & choices because the game was pushed out too early.

    For all extensive purposes this game would be better if Infantry had weight/Inertia & 0.75 ADS was phased out entirely.

    But........ Thats another group of topics for another day.

    What we are talking about now is how the NS-15M will be the only 0.75 ADS LMG to not have 0.75 ADS removed in the biggest Infantry Weapon type balance patch in a long while.

    DBG removed 0.75 ADS off all ES LMG's(Orion,SVA-88,BG), but they didn't remove it off ALL LMG's(NS-15M).
  20. Iridar51

    I don't agree. First we have MAXes, clearly a heavy unit. Slower, more durable, more powerful.

    Weapon classes are different enough from each other to establish a baseline. "Mobility" isn't necessarily raw movement speed, even though ligh classes get access to adrenaline pump that affects that too. Mobility can come in form of good hip fire - don't need to slow down by aiming as much, or high DPS - don't need to stand for a long time shooting at enemy, dispatch one target, and move on.

    And abilities are important, just because it's the only real big difference doesn't mean it should be disregarded. HA's ability slows him down, clearly an intention to demonstrate overall heaviness of the class. It doesn't make sense for one piece of equipment to slow him down, and another piece to speed him up, even if relatively.

    Of course, but only if it's actually stronger. All I want is a good game for everyone to enjoy. For now, I feel classes are in more or less good relantions between each other and HA is the only outlier.

    So buff to compensate? I didn't say anything about flat out stripping it off. Long time ago, 75% ADS weapons got a flat nerf to accuracy. So if 75% ADS gets removed, it makes sense to buff accuracy.

    Why are you arguing with numbers? Yes, it is 50%. That's not a few fractions of a meter, that is 50% more distance traveled. It makes shots 50% easier to dodge for a class that's about tanking shots, not dodging them.

    "And meh meh I dunno not a problem for me" is not how you win arguments.

    I'm not talking about people who jump on monthly "X is OP" train. I'm talking about people who played the game for a long time and know how it works. Like me.

    I didn't "hear somewhere" 75% ADS is OP, I've seen it applied in game, and applied it myself, and I know it is an advantage that should not be on the HA class. Yeah, the real culprit is not 75% ADS, it is the HA shield, I've been saying for a long time it needs a rework. But that is actually a lot more job than tweaking a few numbers in weapon stats spreadsheet, so I'll take what I can get.