TR - The OP Faction.

Obvious troll is obvious.
However there is a one valid point in OP's statement: Claymores
I have no idea why PM and BB have these bright "I am here" lights while Claymores lasers DOESN'T render for enemy (ultra settings player here, and yes, despite some claims from TR that laser is visible, lasers still don't render for enemies)

I think this is the best line. I had to read it twice due to OP's name.
It's just hilarious coming from the best and most aggressive Mag player i've ever seen on Cobalt.
Thanks for making me smile.

i main vanu BUT (see the green)

No it really isn't. If the TR max truly is that bad (IE just the fractures) do something to the TR MAX. You don't further screw up the balance because another part of the game isn't completely balanced.

Couple things; the AV MAX -is- that bad for the TR, we've been begging for a buff since day 1. Secondly, the GK isn't overperforming.

It's pretty much besides the point tho, you don't imbalance one aspect of the game because another is borked balance wise.

Roughly 1016 people lol'd and rising.

Striker OP? That Striker?!

Lol.

We also have the AMP pistol...i mean 900+ rof pistol...that's insane man.

Only thing that makes a faction OP is higher population and more organization. When I started playing, TR was the "OP" faction. Now, as we are unfortunately noticing, the VS is the "OP" faction. Maybe the NC will get their turn to be OP next.

Doesn't have to be higher pop AND more organisation. Having only one is enough.

Everything is OP from the right perspective. People need to quit grumbling about other people's toys and learn how to use their own.

Someone PM'd me and asked me to take a look at this post. You know who you are.

Lets look at a few stats. I faction-colored most things to hopefully make it more easy to follow.

Firstly,

It looks like this claim has a basis in truth, Claymores get 28% more kills then the Proximity mine, and 37% more kills then the Bouncing Betty. The KPU of Claymores, not to mention kills, is the absolute highest in the game (among explosives), above even C4.

As for the rest of this...

Hoo boy, i've written at length about this. The remainder of my post is long, and I'll be surprised if anyone actually finishes, still... I felt like going on at length.

Every single thing the TR has on the Harasser is best at what it does, except for the Aphelion, which is outstripping the Vulcan by 7% in kills.

For a baseline...

Marauder-H has 156% the kills of the Canister-H, and 614% the kills of the PPA-H.
Gatekeeper-H has 504% the kills of the Saron-H, and 493% the kills of the Enforcer-H.

I know the goal was to give the TR a long-range option, but 500% better...? It already has the best primary cannons, both the HEAT and the AP shells outstrip everything on the Magrider, and that WAY overcompensates for the lackluster AV capacity of it's MAX / ESRL.

P2-120 AP has 128% the kills of Titan AP, and 158% the kills of the Supernova FPC
P2-120 HEAT has 208% the kills of the Titan HEAT, and 193% the kills of the Supernova PC.

To take a look at some ES AV on the TR side of things, well... here



I was all prepared to laugh at the claim the Striker is OP (well, ok - I did laugh) ... But looking at it again, sorted by Vehicle KPU, the Striker is competing on par with the Lancer in Kills, and it's not significantly behind the Phoenix in Vehicle KPU. It's actually ahead by 4x for Air KPU. It looks like the Striker is ~40% behind the Lancer in Vehicle kills, but it's only 3% behind in overall kills, and it has 240% the Air kills. The Phoenix still reigns for overall kills, of course, but I attribute this to the fact that it is good at killing infantry, so it's fired at them more often (Plus... when driving a limited-lifespan rocket, targets of opportunity are sometimes the only choice.) Overall, I wouldnt say that this justifies the advantage of 500% that multiple TR ES secondaries have over their competitors.

Now, lets take a look at MAX AV.



Well, right away we see that the Pounder is right on top - that's really no surprise, given that it's a short range splash weapon. When firing at vehicles, they just don't have the reach. This does, however, still matter in terms of overall AV capability, as there are plenty of opportunities to use Pounders on vehicles, given that you can lug them along and not sacrifice much AI potential.

To use the current top V-KPU MAX weapon, Vortexes set the standard.

For V-KPU:
Comet: Left has 1.22, Right has .83 (5333 total kills.)
Vortex: Left has 1.89, right has 1.58 (704 total kills.)

Falcons: Left has 1.13, Right has .68 (2605 total kills)
Ravens: Left has 1.74, Right has 1.75 (2418 total kills.)

Pounders: Left has .7, Right has .51 (6999 total kills)
Fractures: Left has 1.57, Right has 1.28 (713 total kills)

From the above, I draw the following conclusions:
Firstly, Ravens are excellent at everything. They have ~half the AI potential as Comets or Pounders, but given that they are competing nearly on par with the Vortex, who have less then a third of the total kills... there's no scenario in which Ravens aren't a good pick. Falcons are merely pretty good overall, and seem to be a mix of AI and AV comparable to Comets, just with less overall kills, and much higher Alpha damage. They do give up quite a bit of overall AV / AI for the massive initial burst, however, and as a whole, they are simply inferior to Ravens.

Pounders and Comets are both good options, but Pounders have significantly higher AI potential (132% the number of overall kills compared to Comets.) and Comets have significantly higher AV potential ( As an average of both arms for V-KPU: Comet 1.205 vs Pounders .895 ... which works out to V-KPU advantage of Comets, which have 135% the AV potential of Pounders. In a nutshell, Pounders are better at AI by the same percentage that Comets are better at AV - as these are intended to be AV weapons, that does give an advantage to Comets.

Now, the real culprit as to why the TR needed viable long range: Fractures.
To compare them to Vortexes in the same manner as we did Pounders to Comets...
As an average of both arms, Vortexes have an overall V-KPU of 1.73. Fractures have an overall V-KPU of 1.425, and Fractures have a kill-advantage of ... 9, which is negligible. The Vortex has 121% the V-KPU of the Fracture. Yep, it's slightly worse, AV, but the difference is nowhere near enough of a disadvantage to justify the 500%+ advantage that a few of the TR secondaries have over the VS / NC.

A disadvantage is a disadvantage, however, and I would say that the TR did indeed need a good long range AV solution, but one proportionally comparable to the main cannon for the Prowler especially, which already had the absolute best primary cannon in the game. This means that it should output less performance then the Saron, as the Magrider's primary cannon is already the absolute worst primary cannon in the game. Additionally, the Striker could use another minor buff or two, and I wouldn't mind if Fractures had slightly increased AI and AV potential (Less CoF / slightly higher Velocity, ideally) to fill the gap in overall infantry / max based TR AV performance. Simply transfer some of the Gatekeeper's potency to the Fracture and the Striker, and quite a few issues will be solved.

For a few references, please see the following blob of my previous balance posts / stat analysis, assuming you like oodles and oodles of reading and hours of staring at stats.
There's no TL : DR for this. I kept most of the below objective, and a few posts go back to data from years ago to compare prenerf versions of things to the current ones.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...ed-into-the-ground.233196/page-2#post-3279345
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...r-nerfed-into-the-ground.233196/#post-3278750
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...gets-a-long-range-option.233171/#post-3278206
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...gets-a-long-range-option.233171/#post-3278075
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...eper-2-weeks-later.233108/page-4#post-3277400
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/mr11-gatekeeper.232915/page-7#post-3276525
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/mr11-gatekeeper.232915/page-3#post-3274667
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/mr11-gatekeeper.232915/page-3#post-3274653
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/mr11-gatekeeper.232915/page-3#post-3274585
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/mr11-gatekeeper.232915/page-2#post-3274404 (Important DPS one)
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/mr11-gatekeeper.232915/page-2#post-3274243
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...-av-pre-nerfed-ppa.232840/page-7#post-3273538
https://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/3ihbxj/comparison_of_harasser_esav_weapons/



For a quick DPS-over-time comparison, here's the damage of the Saron versus the Gatekeeper. Keep in mind that the Gatekeeper has no recoil, no bloom, and a 1.75 second reload, not to mention a full 200m/s velocity over the Saron or Enforcer. In the above blob of links is a statistical analysis of the prenerf PPA compared to the Gatekeeper. In a nutshell, the PPA was better at AI, but the fact that you can compare their AI potential at all to a supposed competitor to the Saron / Enforcer is simply silly.

To quote myself on the direct Saron vs Gatekeeper comparison, An excerpt, from the bolded link that I believe is relevant here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Gatekeeper wins after the first magazine with accurate fire, and continues pulling ahead. In the second case, the Saron wins if we ignore bloom and spam-fire, and even then - the Gatekeeper keeps up until it has to reload. By then, enough damage has been done by both parties that any further damage simply doesn't matter, assuming that most shots connect. The above ignores resist values, so this is straight DPS - I'm still looking for the new resist values for the new weapons, they still weren't 100% correct last I saw them, so at the very least, the above is accurate vs infantry. The gatekeeper's AI potential alone is massive.



Feedback / error / thoughts checks are welcome.

Claymore = big box on a stick that only does damage in one direction
Gatekeeper/Vulcan = stop b*tching about those already, I mean seriously
The Prowler = really easy target to hit because it's a square
Striker = not sure if trolling here or just very stupid
Pounders = YEAH their KPH is high! FRACTURES ARE HORRIBLE! Did you even think that it's our only option?
Mosquito = hard to fly, rewarding when mastered

Firstly, see my post above for an extremely detailed answer:
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/tr-the-op-faction.234045/page-3#post-3290997

For the Vulcan, I agree - everyone has one now. The Mjolnir might need a bit of a buff vs AI, if the goal is to give them all the same general capabilities.

For the Gatekeeper? ... How about no. The TR / NC didn't "quit b*tching* when the PPA / ZOE were at their height, and rightly so. The things were stupidly overpowered to inane degree - the only reason they stayed as OP as they did was due to a balance-change-freeze as a part of the OMFG effort, so when the nerf hammer was finally allowed to be dropped, it made them useless due to overkill. The Gatekeeper, as I have explained in any of thirty ways in previous posts, complete with performance numbers and direct comparisons to the PPA, has a stupid amount of potency.

The Gatekeeper-H is currently outputting 500% the performance compared to the Saron-H or Enforcer-H. As someone with a BR100 of all factions, TR included, I want the Gatekeeper to remain viable. Prior to it's release, the Prowler primary / Harasser Vulcan was the only real AV teeth the TR had. Pairing the best by far long range AV secondary with what was already the best MBT primary, not to mention the highest performing Harasser AV... It's upsets the overall vehicle balance between factions, there's no competing with the TR, it takes vastly superior numbers to try.

To quote myself from my above post:

The Gatekeeper has a 200m/s velocity advantage over it's competitors, the Saron / Enforcer (both harasser and MBT) only have 300/ms velocity. The Gatekeeper has no recoil or bloom, the lowest reload time at 1.75 seconds, and unlike the Saron / Enforcer, a magazine size cert option. To add to this, the MBT Gatekeeper has 30 shots, compared to the Harasser's 20. Shouldn't this mean that the Saron / Enforcer get a roughly 33% magazine size boost for MBT versions? Heck, the Saron, when maximally certed, has a 2.55 second reload time. When reload certs give tenths of a second at best, a maximum certed Saron still has a .8 second longer reload then a stock gatekeeper. Yes, this matters. Sustained fire capability should give longer reload speed, not shorter, as is the case with literally every other gun in the game.


So no, I will not stop complaining. I will, however, complain in a constructive, logical manner, and recommend fixes that I believe would be viable (not to mention, fixes I would enjoy using on my TR.)

Um, yes - you have correctly identified it's shape. The Magrider is a glowing squished-sphere thing with a glowing undercarriage and flames that shoot out of it's rear when it boosts, there's not much more it could do to be obvious on the battlefield. The Prowler has the lowest profile short of the Lightning, making it nigh unhittable when it's shooting over low cover. It's also the fastest MBT in the game. The Prowler makes a good target, all MBT's do, but at least the Prowler can mitigate this in the easiest manner by use of cover. It is rather broad though, which makes it more difficult to navigate around in urban / high obstacle density areas, so that's something.

To quote myself from my above post, again...

The Striker has almost identical AI capability when compared to the Lancer. As of yesterday, given the same overall number of users, it had a grand total of 9 more kills, worldwide. That's fairly good balance there, but it's still behind in vehicles. 40% lesser AV performance and 240% greater AA performance seems fair on paper, but i'd like to see it gain another manner of advantage somewhere, as AA is sort of niche, and like the Lancer... it's just not worth carrying around full time for a niche scenario (AA) that occurs even less often then that of the Lancer's niche scenario (AV at ~300-600 meters)

The I'd like to see the Striker get a bit of an AV buff, or a bit of an AI buff, perhaps a slight buff for both. Either that, or simply add a full lock-on-only firing mode that forces a reload before being able to fire. (Making the Striker either a Dumbfire launcher, or a lock-on-only, no dumbfire launcher with a simple mode swap and a reload.) - the mechanics for both already exist, so this probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement, and it would give a high degree of versatility.

I'll quote myself again here, but for a full analysis, read the above. There's another 5 paragraphs or so.

The V-KPU of Fractures is 82% of the Vortex's. This is not a terrible number. It's less, yes, and it needs buffing.

To review, and compare to the VS:
The Lancer is 40% better at AV, the Striker is 240% better at AA, kills and users are essentially identical.
The Vortex is 18% better at AV, and has the same number of kills as the Fracture, which needs buffing.
The Pounder has 32% higher Infantry kills then the Comet, which has 34% higher AV kills then the Pounder.

The Gatekeeper has 500%+ higher performance then the Saron.
The Marauder has 600%+ higher performance then the PPA
P2-120 AP has 128% the kills of Titan AP, and 158% the kills of the Supernova FPC
P2-120 HEAT has 208% the kills of the Titan HEAT, and 193% the kills of the Supernova PC.

As for suggestions: Transfer 100-125 Projectile Velocity from the Gatekeeper to the Fracture, remove any CoF the Fracture has, and add on a secondary charge that arms at ~75 meters, doing 20-30% greater damage to armor at range. The Fracture is now a deadly, long-range armor piercing monster.

Give the Gatekeeper some manner of drawback - the complete lack of recoil or bloom, combined with it's extremely short reload is most of the reason for it's overpoweredness. Give it a small amount of bloom (Nothing greater then the Kobalt), and a small amount of vertical recoil (No greater then 1/3 of what the Saron has per shot) - Increase reload by .5 seconds. Even this tiny amount would go a long way to balancing the weapon. Even with the above, the Gatekeeper would still have +75 / 100 m/s velocity over the Enforcer / Saron, and a shorter reload then the Saron by .75 seconds.

Yep, you just defined every ESF. Unlike the Scythe, at least the Mosquito / Reaver don't drop like bricks when aiming even slightly towards the ground. That said, I have no problem with the Mosquito as it is. It's currently the fastest ESF, but it suits the TR playstyle well, and everyone has to have an advantage SOMEwhere, leave it as is. The only real complaint I can think of for the Mosquito is that the Banshee was overnerfed rather significantly, although given that Hellfires are the best AI Rocketpod between the three, it hasn't affected that many pilots that i've seen. Still, i'd like to see the Banshee buffed slightly.


Just a few thoughts.

Maybe remove the "sorted by Vehicle KPU". Is confusing if you are just going to talk about total kills.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Please, don't use different values for sentences like that. It makes no sense.

Using "total kills" everytime a TR gun has better numbers but when not, you start looking at other values. Besides, total kills, alone, is probably the worst data to measure effectiveness.

Yay, we only need 16% more HAs with Striker to be almost in line with Lancers!

I could say Striker is 71% behind the Lancer in VKPH. I'll say it again: statistics


I really appreciate and respect such posts, but try to keep coherence.

My opinion:
- Claymores: don't have a delay, more damage. Require more time to be placed, but unless you are an Infil going for a suicide run, that doesn't matter. So yeah, best.
- Striker: is intended for G2A, but only if said aircraft is flying mostly straight & nose down, or hovering. Combined with the effectiveness of AA MAX with lockdown, the TR have more G2A power, lacking medium-long AV until the GK
- Marauder-H: is clearly best. PPA overnerfed.
- Gatekeeper: CoF so small I've noticed it shooting at a stationary small target at ~400m. Any drop at all? +200m/s muzzle velocity. There is no "but" about that gun.

Regarding "Prowler cannons OP". Last month, Vang's AP was always above Prowler when looking at vehicles killed by, except for Sunderers.
This month things changed. Which confirms GK is over the top, especially for the Harasser, even taking in consideration the lack of kills from Striker and Fractures.

Replies colored in green for simplicity, see below.

Thanks for reading. I doubt many have bothered.

I feel bad for saying so little compared to your wall texts But in short, I was just trying to say that you mixed so many data and then writing some conclusions that didn't make much sense or just didn't mention important details.

If I say Gk has 5336 kills, and the Enforcer 1082, those numbers together look REALLY crazy. GK is 500% more powerful!
But if you add that's the work of 864 TR Harassers compared to just 220 for NC, doesn't look THAT crazy. The real data, the one that really matters (I think) is a 25% better perfomance (which is enough to yell OP!).

God, someone needs to do a version of this, for this thread.