Nerfing items paid for with SC is fraud

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Twistdlester, Mar 28, 2013.

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  1. Nasher

    There does seem to be a lot of bait and switch scams going around since the "F2P" generation started. For some reason some games developers/publishers seem to think they can do what they like and nothing will happen.

    E.g. Gearbox with Colonial Marines.
  2. Deadeye

    all of those things (except for maybe the AV turret, don't remember a direct nerf for it) started out very well only to be nerfed or replaced later.

    After the first SMGs they came out with a second set of SMGs that are said to be better, the phoenix lost the OHK infantry ability which was OP when it first came out and resulted in much money being made by sony. Breaker rockets, a "must have" when the game first came out, have been nerfed a few times though they still work.

    Next to be nerfed are the pump action shotguns a lot of people bought as well as the shotguns on the NC max because everyone saw them both as OP and bought them and now they're being nerfed.

    Even the rocket launchers: they come out with AA and AV lock on versions (cha-ching one) then the annihilator makes them both pointless (cha-ching two) and its then changed just in time for the Empire specific launchers (cha-ching three).

    Either this dev team can't balance a weapon to save their lives or the good old bait-and-switch is alive and well in their ranks. Whether you agree with the nerfs or not, you have to admit there is a pretty clear pattern going on.
  3. SgtBreastroker

    Partly the dev's fault and partly the community's fault for whining for nerfs.
  4. ChaosRender

    The first SMG work just as well as the day I bought it, and I would not trade it for the second. Just because you bought one gun but prefer the style of another is not bait and switch, it is you being a bad consumer.

    All shotguns will get a balance pass which is fair, and it may hurt the PA more than the other but unless they gun can no longer kill it is not a bait and switch.

    I have a A2G launcher I only use it to shoot ESFs, I use the default for everything else and would never use a Annihilator. So how are they replacing each other? The phoenix is barely useful and has been since it was put in to the game, I had plan to buy it but after seeing it I decided the Default is still better.

    And at the end all of these weapons form shotguns to rocketpods, to SMGs all still work, all still kill, and all still fill the role they where designed for. So how have you lost anything, unless you feel you have a right to things that are broken, or not yet balanced? And yes you may say oh they should be balanced before they come out and my question is how? No Test sever, or internal testing will find all the cheap and pathetic ways plays will use a weapon to kill others. Far bigger and older MMOs than this have tried and they still can not predict how there users will use what is given to them no matter how much testing is done.

    And saying that a company is not allowed to make improvements or balances to there game stagnate the game. Would you be fine if prowlers, libs, magriders, phoenix, scatmaxs, shotguns, annihilator, and may other things went back to how they where when the game launched and never changed for better or worse? Nothing added nothing taken away way for fear they will have to refund all the money spent up to that point, nothing can be added unless it is a clear down grade for fear people well call it a bait and switch. This is what you are asking of SOE, stagnation of their game for fear a player may feel slighted and demand a refund they would have to pay.
  5. Endlos

    Logged in to post pretty much the same thing, but Eugenitor hit the nail on the head.

    Pay 2 Win sucks. People called the game P2W as soon as the pricing system was announced, and people were all like "noooo, they're sidegrades, it's an either-or choice."

    Now we have shotguns that one-hit kill people when before we only had shotguns that took 2-3 hits. Now we have rocket launchers that are 100%, invariably better than stock.

    SOE is pushing this game down the toilet and won't stop until all the people getting milked by their pay2win ******** wise up and stop handing over money for the newest bestest OSK.

    Real-money should never be used for any performance or gameplay alterations. Never. Ever. SOE should have gone hog-wild making models, armor, gun skins, camos, cosmetics. Things to make yourself look different and stand out. As soon as you start charging money for improved performance, you've completely ruined your game.
  6. Cryosin

    It's the same way in every F2P game. Take a look at League of Legends: You spend $10 on a champion, $20 on a skin, and then possibly more on boosts and rune pages for runes. At any time Riot can nerf that champion.

    I agree that testing weapons can be handled better, and there are some obvious balance problems, but what are you asking for?

    Do you want overpowered and underpowered weapons that are purchasable to never be balanced and changed?
  7. Deadeye

    And what, exactly, is wrong with them being in fear of having to refund our money? If they want to not have to do that, then they should get it right the first damn time.

    It is NOT my (or yours or any customer's) responsibility to buy only prenerfed weapons. It is my responsibility to my faction, to my outfit and to myself to kill as many enemies as I can before I die. It is Sony's responsibility to make sure anything they release is properly balanced. The price for failure (i.e. they have to nerf the gun) should be to refund us the station cash or certs spent on the gun and we, as the customers, should have the choice whether we accept those changes by buying the gun again or spending our cash and certs someplace else.

    All I'm arguing for is choice. Our choice to accept or reject changes made to weapons we pay for. We should not have to deal with that old, stupid argument of "buyer beware". A lot of people, IN REAL LIFE, have died because of that. It's why we have consumer protection laws. So, please, don't defend them taking our money then screwing with what we paid for with no consequences, it hurts you as much as anyone else (unless you are working for Sony).
  8. ChaosRender

    So I have to ask where do you the consumer take any responsibility in all of this? Do you have any responsibility when it come to purchases you make with your money? Do you go to the gas station and demand a refund because gas is cheaper the day after you fill up?
    And me personally if I have a choose between a balanced game and one of my guns changing a little I will take a balanced game. And I say that knowing my HA's shotgun is on the balancing block soon, and may not work the same after, but it will work and I will still kill with it.
  9. Vapid

    It's a f*cked up business practice, but it's not illegal. When you clicked "agree" box, you lost your right to complain. Simple solution: don't buy anything that hasn't been released at least a month.
  10. Deadeye

    Your analogy is a little off. Imagine not if the price of the gas changed but its octane level did. If your car required premium gas, let's say 93 octane and the next day you start having trouble with your engine. You take it to a mechanic who says the octane in the gas was suddenly 80 octane. You go to complain and the guy points to a sign that says by pumping the gas, you accept whatever octane is pumped in. I'll tell you right now that wouldn't fly with me, anyone I know or the regulatory authorities and courts when I sue him.

    In the reverse, if you only pump regular because you think premium is too expensive but you find your car working great during the next week. Well the gas tanker accidentally put the premium gas in the regular gas tank. That's not your problem, is it? Would you return the gas? I know I wouldn't. Macy's just had that problem with a necklace that their catalog say was $47 when it should have been $479. They couldn't complain when it sold out at the wrong price because it was their problem, not the customers'.

    To address your analogy directly, you can't really complain about gas changing price. It happens, but I bought a new computer chair at staples a few months ago on a Friday. The next day my mother saw it was on sale in a circular in the newspaper. I brought the circular and my receipt to the store and they refunded me the difference. Staples did the right thing. They didn't tell me to take a hike, they made a company policy of a 30 day price guarantee. They took responsibility and now I am a happy customer and will continue to shop there in the future. Sony could learn a thing or two from them.

    They can make their buffs and nerfs all they want, but the right thing to do would be to refund us. They say they data mine everything in this game, so they must know who bought what with what. And it doesn't actually cost them anything to have the software take the weapon, type 700 SC in our account (or refund the 1000 certs to our character) and let us choose whether to buy it again.

    I'm not asking for a credit card charge back, just the option to rebuy the gun if I don't care about its changes and the ability to buy something else if we do care about the changes.
  11. Cl1mh4224rd

    Your analogy is even worse. What part of you requires a one-hit kill weapon or would incur additional expenses if you suddenly find yourself without a one-hit kill weapon?
  12. Deadeye

    It's not about what I "require" it's about what I was sold. To use a truly propper analogy, let's say you just bought a blue sports car. It's so fast, no one in the older cars can pass you. You are also a lawyer. Thanks to your new car you chase ambulances faster than the guys in red and purple. They complain to the car company and during your next maintenance visit they take out your 500 horsepower engine and put in a 100 horsepower engine.

    When you complain and demand a refund on the car, they tell you that deep in all the paperwork you signed at purchase was a clause that said they can modify the car without compensating you. You sue and I'll bet the courts would side with you. Why? Because to do otherwise would be to set a dangerous precedent.

    The only reason Sony and other companies get away with this in their games is not because of the "EULA" or their "TOS", it's because there are no regulations or laws covering virtual items despite it being a multimillion if not billion dollar industry. It's like the 1800s all over again. We take till we can't take it anymore and we just stop paying. Some day the laws will catch up but probably not anytime soon.

    I will personally not be buying any more guns until after they are fully balanced (maybe not even then) and will keep my premium account until my alpha squad boost runs out, but after that, I'm done paying except for maybe cosmetic items. By then I will probably have already spent enough for years of subs but I'm tired of this baiting and switching whether the rebalancing is needed or not.
  13. Rebelgb

    HOW ABOUT THIS OP: You give back 50% of the XP you gained while using an obviously OP weapon you purchased that was eventually nerfed, and SOE gives you back your SC?

    Wont do it huh? Go figure....
  14. ironeddie

    I'm in two minds on this, soe need to make money the game is a buisness so new weapons have to be made attractive to buy. Sometimes & seemingly every time new weapon gets nerfed & in getting wary of that but sometimes it'll be genuinely needed. I bought the HE main gun for my mag & lightning but blast radius got nerfed so that the weapon is next to useless & now I've switched back to the stock weapon on my mag, the pump action shotgun is about to be nerfed I bought that to. Essentially real money wasted & obviously nobody can feel good about that. Maybe soe should go like team fortress & just sell cool hats.
  15. GSZenith

    another random having not reading PP/ToS/EULA etc...please i beg you Sue SoE and we can all have a good laugh..

    ofc :O and i'm 18+ as well!
  16. Jex =TE=

    Anyone that buys anything on PS2 gets exactly what they deserve now. Either you're stupid or your not.
  17. Lelouch

    Just remember, as a consumer you have rights. No matter what EULA or TOS states, as it doesn't over-wright the law in your country.
  18. SmellyBoots

    lol it just sounds like you want chance to get the most OP weapon whenever they nerf your old OP weapon for free.

    Your analogies are wrong anyways, You were not sold the weapon. You were sold Station cash which you got your money worth. They did not change the value of the Station cash.

    What they did was force a massive recall on the online product (which you traded for station cash) which was not working the way they intended. They viewed the product as defective to the gaming experience so it has been changed. You know that it is possible for them to recall their products as they have done it a lot in the past and you also signed a TOS accepting those terms. It was a risk that you chose to accept when you traded your station cash for the product.

    If you get your station cash back why shouldn't the people who put their certs into get their certs back?

    if you were going to pass regulation for online games then what would you pass? You get your station cash back because they made adjustments to an old item that doesn't really fit into their game. This allows you to get new products that they have worked on for free? Is that right at all. Just because you spent 7.00 at the start of the game does not give you the right to access newer products that they have worked on or built since the purchase of your old weapon.

    Should you get your station cash back when they introduce a newer and better product? If we go by your car analogy It would be in their right to offer a newer and faster car every single week. They could do it too because instead of real world products all they have to do is make changes to the number values of that weapon. In effect offer a new and better weapon is a nerf to the old ones as they are not as good as they were. Then they would be in full compliance of the law of not being able to change weapon stats, but what a ****** game that would be.

    Also for those that think its a baiting and switch can you name all the weapons that they have done this too?
    The smg were not a bait and switch as you knew that there were going to be two sets. If you didnt know then you were not paying close attention to the announcements and that is your fault as a consumer.

    All I know of is the Air re-balancing which was needed as it really sucked to play on the ground with OP air
    Mag-rider nerf as they had much larger tank kills vs the other EST
    The HE and heat re-balancing as prowler could farm to hell and back
    and now the shotgun balance which people have been calling for since the pump actions came out and the Scattermaxes have long been over due to be re-balanced.

    The only fraud here is people seeming to think that they have a right to new products when re-balancing is done here. You have no right to have access to a new item since the game has been re-balanced.
  19. hostilechild

    The only thing they should get in trouble for is nerfing a weapon they sold only to release another one with the same to very similar stats to the pre-nerf (la80 -> longshot was perfect copy others are just similar). i.e. They already knew the previous one was OP so why release another in its form or in the case i mentioned simply to sell the same weapon again.
  20. RadarX

    We are going to go ahead and close this up. If you have concerns about weapon changes, we have plenty of threads available to discuss it. Thanks!
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