[Suggestion] NC maxes urgently need those Machine guns

Well you're wrong.

I disagree

Blueshift perhaps can be close. the Mercy is not even close to what I was watching in that video, and I've used both.

You can disagree all you want, it doesn't make the slightest difference to your being wrong.

Slugs are strange beasts, they are massively RNG dependant at range, if you get some "lucky" rolls you kill, if you get "bad" rolls you can hit nothing with whole magazines; people seem to only remember (and indeed video) the "lucky" rolls.

This is why you are wrong Blueshifts and indeed Mercys (although you're right Blueshifts would be a bit better) would work much better on average at that range, not only does using Mattocks, Blueshifts and Mercys quickly demonstrate this to be so, but the maths clear does too - how would a weapon with a worse CoF actually have "better" over all accuracy at longer ranges? If you can explain that too me, by all means do so. Never mind that both Blueshifts and Mercys have much better sustained fire and much better reloading times

I understand where you're coming from there, I really do. But it's an incredible streak of luck shown in that video if the slug Mattocks aren't as accurate as they appear to be.

Also, the Mercy flat out sucks, in my opinion. They're equally RNGesus dependent but the Alpha damage is far lower. At the ranges shown in that video it would take years to kill with Mercies, Blueshifts a little less perhaps.

I agree that they have better sustained fire and reloads, but we are talking about kills here, not suppressing a door. If my Mercies hit 1/4 or 1/3 at 100 damage or less, it's FAR worse than the possibility of gibbing as was shown in that video.

I'd be willing to bet that an HA would kill a TR/VS MAX 1v1 at 30m if they both stood there and just let loose on each other, let alone the dodging disparity.

I thank you all for the feedback and comments. I really want to see this come to live sooner than later so I ask people of all factions to give us support for this. Ns machine gun and ns shotgun for maxes.. While this doesn't fix the core problem of the nc max it would balance our ability to use our max just as much as tr and vs use theirs and that's all I really want. People who have played both factions can clearly see how much weaker the nc max is over all..

One thing I don't understand except that it must be just a reaction to being hit with a shotgun is this instagib argument vs the other factions. Any infantry that's at 8-10 meters will be instantly killed no matter the max being used. But for some odd reason because its a shotgun the amount of (power) behind the weapon in the victims mind is that the shotguns power is vastly superior when in truth all maxes ai weapons kills in real world terms instantly. .3 of a second doesn't even matter in real life because no action can be taken to change the outcome in .3 of a second. The reason why nc complain is for that .3 seconds we give up any controllable killing past 15 meters and we give up 90% of our ammo pool and we give up 4 more seconds to reload. Now if that doesn't seem fair well then let me tell you it isn't any anyone whos played all the maxes can tell you its so much easier farming on a tr or vs max in multiple scenarios.

Since I tend to look at the battlefield in binary.. as in each person capable of firing and hitting enemies a 1 and those not a 0. A max counts as +2 if it can fire at enemy and -2 if it cant.. now take a battlefield say outside of a base being sieged.. each nc max out there not able to fire back is -2 while each enemy is +2 now take all the numbers together and youl have yours and your enemies total collective force as I call it.. its almost never wrong either.. you know when your factions total collective force is actualy higher by NOT using a max that something isn't working as intended.

This is simply untrue. It's fast, yes, but TR/VS are NOT instant. Are you punished more for missing with an NC MAX? Probably, yes. But practically speaking the TTK difference is huge when put in actual-game scenarios.

It is instant from the POV of the victim, thanks to latency. The only 'real game' difference is that you're punished far more for missing in an NC max. And you have far fewer shots in your mag in an NC max. And you have zero effectiveness beyond CQC in an NC max. And you're reloading more than 50% of the time in your NC max.

Meh. You're basing the first sentence on perfect play MAX side and flawed play Infantry side. MAX units are so slow that lag comp hardly works in your favor, ever.

Again, seeing those Mattocks slugs in action disabused me of the inability to kill at range with NC MAX notion.

Harder punishment? Yes. So is a sniper rifle, but the range roles are fully reversed.

Do I think you ought to at least have the option for a fast RoF weapon? Of course.

ALL MAX AI sucks at range. I don't know that slugs are much worse than watching +75% of your Mercy bullets hit the wall behind your target instead.

I use slugs all the time on my NC MAX and ive never had a problem with the shot not going where i wanted it to, i think its more of people want sniper shotguns and refuse to accept anything worse is good.

In all honesty having just carefully re-watched that video again there's some fishy stuff going on, at one point he lands 4 consecutive headshots at a range that must be over 60m. He also 2 and 3 shot kills well over the range of a two shot kill with slugs (which means either he was "kill stealing" targets or something else weird was going on).

So I dunno what is going on there, but he seems to be overly accurate to me (not in aiming, but rather that his slugs go exactly where the center dot is, rather than where the CoF would usually send them. In fact he seems to have better accuracy than crouch-shooting Mattock MAX usually would - and he is NOT crouching!)

Both the Mercy and the Blueshift have better accuracy, so should (and would) be able to kill better in those ranges than that MAX.

The advantage the NC Mattock MAX has is if it gets lucky, it will kill, but as you see a couple of times in that video equally it can empty both mags and not get a single hit.

Not a chance, at 30m a Mercy or Blueshift (or even Onslaught or Mutilator MAX would destroy a HA well before the reload) an NC AI MAX could be in trouble at that range if they need to reload however.[/quote]

It goes exactly where you aim it, only you cannot account for the CoF, the longer the range the more of an issue that becomes.

Exactly the same issue as with hip-firing slug using infantry shotguns, which is why most ADS if they are using slugs (with ADS it goes exactly where you aim it, baring drop).

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You're going to have to teach me how to MAX, because I cannot do these things

Let's put it this way, IF you can use a Mattock MAX like that fella in the video then you'll be a BEAST with a Mercy MAX and most especially a Blueshift MAX.

I might make an NC character just to round out my account (and I've also learned that playing a faction/weapon/whatever helps me exploit its weaknesses better when against it) but for now, I'm still learning Red Rover. I kind of like TR, more than I thought I would.

Mattocks (and Scattercannons) with slugs can be just as accurate as Mercies and almost as accurate at range as Blueshifts when used properly.

The thing is, in order to do so you have to:

1. crouch
2. stop moving briefly while you pull your dual-triggers once
3. let your COF settle between shots

However, 99% of the playerbase on all three factions don't bother to do any of these things when stomping around in a MAX. Instead they're constantly moving around and mash the fire button down when they want to fire, and they hardly even think about COF bloom, which is why you get such wild variation in players' estimation of these weapons' effective range.

Here are the COFs of the 3 weapons when standing / crouched:

• Blueshifts: 1.15 / .9
• Mercies: 1.25 / 1
• Mattocks/Scats with slugs: 1.5 / 1

If you crouch fire and let your weapon settle between shots, Mattocks/Scats w/ slugs will alwaysbe as accurate as Mercies. In addition, Blueshifts - even if burst fired - will only get 2 bullets that are more accurate. After the 2nd shot their COF has bloomed to 1.02, and the Mattock/Scat slug gun is more accurate.


Of course the DPS of all three weapons will suffer at range. with Mercies/Blueshift, you want to burst fire. With Mattock/Scat slugguns, you want to fire single shots like Darthsebious was doing in his video.


Are NC Mattock/Scat slugguns as good at range as Blueshift or Mercies? No. Blueshifts are slightly more accurate, and although slugguns can be as accurate as Mercies, you have to let the weapon settle between shots, which hurts DPS.

But the difference isn't anywhere near as big as many people would lead you to believe.

You bring up the bloom of Blueshifts but not for Mattocks. All shotguns have a bloom of 1. MAX, infantry, all of them. All MAX MMGs have a bloom of .05.

So if you fire just once with Mattocks, your COF turns to 2.5/2. It takes 20 rounds out of either Mercy or Blueshift to get that high while also sitting in the dirt. It takes 15~ shots for their standing COF to reach that high. It takes 5-7 shots for Mercy/Blueshift standing COF to just reach Mattock standing COF.

While the Mattock is waiting out its COF bloom after every shot, both the Mercy and Blueshift are killing before needing to even think of a COF reset. Mattocks, or any shotgun really, need to COF reset after every shot. Mercy/Blueshift needs to COF reset after maybe every 20-30 rounds. Counting the twin arms. NC every 2 shots needs a COF reset, TR/VS every 40-60 rounds needs a COF reest.

A LOT more killing power for TR/VS. Even if you don't kill you are doing damage and forcing the enemy to waste medkits, wait for regen, hold up their Medics to heal, and just giving your faction more time to setup postions, do their damage, flank, or just kill.



And people say MAXes don't have support roles.

If you crouch-fire, stationary, and lower your DPS by waiting for reset, then yes Mattocks can be almost as accurate at Blueshifts and as accurate as Mercys.

They still however have horrible sustained fire compared to Mercys/Blueshifts and have a terrible % reloading time compared to either.

Comparatively with a Blueshift or Mercy at the same ranges you can likely kill just as quickly as a Mattock doing all the above, when not crouching, actually moving and blazing away full auto without really worrying about bloom.

This is why you're actually often best using Hacksaws with slugs if you want to copy the Mercy/Blueshift ploy of pop out of cover kill 1-2 pop back in..... dispite Hacksaws having terrible CoF, because they at least unload the most DPS in the direction of the enemy most quickly allowing you to roll the dice and get back into cover.




Crouch-firing reduces your mobility a lot (and often reduces your field of visibility) for the trade off, same with stopping moving (which is often impossible or plain stupid to do - especially since the Archer, as it is asking for a headshot), letting your bloom reset is just sensible, but again will lose you kills at times, as much at it gets you kills at other............. and as mentioned Mercys and Blueshifts don't really need to do the above.

I specifically mentioned that you would need to let the bloom settle between shots (see step 3 in my post). How is that not bringing them up?

But you're correct. Mercies and Blueshifts are signficantly better at range. IMO they're too good at range. I'm not one to reflexively throw the nerf bat at things the moment there's a balance issue. But TBH I'd rather the devs bring TR/VS MAX accuracy down closer to slug level than buff accuracy on the NC side. AI MAXes are powerful enough as it is.

I have fixed that for you, much welcomes.

It has nothing to do with perfectness of play or speed of the unit. On both sides, when the enemy starts shooting you, you don't see it until a few milliseconds later. Meaning that the TTK on the receiving end is always lower than on the sending end. You can be the most "perfect" infantry player in the world, and you still won't be able to see when a MAX starts hitting you with bullets any sooner than a total n00b would. It's all up to the client->server->client connection. Meaning that even the most "perfect" infantry player will still see an extremely quick TTK from a non-shotgun MAX at close range.
So your assertion that I'm "basing the first sentence on perfect play MAX side and flawed play Infantry side." and "MAX units are so slow that lag comp hardly works in your favor" really don't make much sense.


Regardless, though, the essential point is that I see no practical, real-world reasons to use shotguns over chainguns in any situation. Can you provide me any?

"In addition, Blueshifts - even if burst fired - will only get 2 bullets that are more accurate. After the 2nd shot their COF has bloomed to 1.02, and the Mattock/Scat slug gun is more accurate."

That is the part where you bring up Blueshift needing just 2 shots to reach Mattocks sitting + still COF. You are comparing a weapon that has already started shooting to something that has never fired a single shot. Then once the Mattock does fire its first shot it has that bloom of 1, who is again, 20x times bigger than anything TR/VS MAXes have.

Outside of headshots, no NC MAX slugs can kill with 2 hits unless they are under 8m where Slug damage drop starts. Maybe a cloaker can be 2 shot at 10m, need to do the math.... After math, a cloaker can likely be 2 shot without headshots to 13-15m. On the other hand Mercy kills in 8 hits at any range and Blueshift kills in 7 hits at any range. And as you said, Blueshift gets to fire 2 rounds (4 with double arms) before reaching the Mattocks sitting + still COF. With luck that is good possible damage. And they can keep shooting for a good while longer still.


So not only are NC MAXes reloading many times more often than TR/VS MAXes. They need to COF reset far more often as well meaning an entire NC class requires a lot more control/skill than its TR/VS counterparts.This is the main reason I see for NC being so bad on live servers. Their MAX is just to limited thanks to shotguns and nothing but shotguns. Puts them at a disadvantage from the start.

Just think if MBTs, or ESFs worked like this. Or better yet. What if infantry classes did this? TR cloakers only had SMGs and NC/VS only had snipers, with no scout rifles or anything else for the class. That **** wouldn't have lasted past beta! But somehow MAXes lasted for 3 years now like this.