I Want To Talk About TR Problems.

Vanguards are also used as AA with great results, actually leaving them to be better against ESFs (which are the major threat to MBTs) and perhaps slightly worse against Libs, which are still 2 shotted though. The Magrider's AA capabilities is in a different situation, but the Magrider deserves its own discussion thread help it.

I don't agree. Each faction has their weapons that are either "Best in class" or very good "All around"
I grant you the Striker was OP in it's time but it has been nerfed into uselessness, so that problem has been solved for you.
Each faction should have weapons that are nearly OP that is the attraction to that faction.
Anyone who has been playing this game since release has seen the population swings happen. They happen BECAUSE of the new weapons that come out that are faction specific and nearly OP.
SoE will continue this cycle BECAUSE it's good business. How boring would it be if EVERYTHING were equal?

Look at the old forums post and you will see everyone at one time was crying because the NC was so over populated. At the time the SCATMAX was in it's full glory, after it got nerfed and the Striker came out TR population exploded. Now we see the same happening. The Striker has been nerfed and the population will swing most likely to the VS and the Zoe Max.

Sure there are "Hardcore" players in each faction that will stay with their faction, but if you stick around very long you'll see the TR decline, not because of small "balance" changes but because of major nerfs and OP weapons in other factions.

It is a cycle that will continue to the end. Be patient your favorite faction will have it's heyday.

Except that even when NC was overpopulated the TR and VS, overall, were still outscoring NC (at the time a lot of people were trying to argue that was because they were overpopulated). Also, the pre-nerf NC MAX outscored the TR MAX by 8.5% on average, whereas the post-nerf Prowler was outscoring the NC Vanguard by 20% (and the Magrider was outscoring it by 17%).

NC, overall as a faction, has never been outscoring TR or VS from any of the data I have seen- if you have some data to the contrary I would really appreciate seeing it. True, there was a time when NC MAX was outscoring the others (again, by about 8.5%) but during that time, overall, NC was still scoring the least of the three.

It is true that there is evidence of population shifts and there is probably a fair amount of merit in the idea that these shifts may be guided by perceptions of a faction being OP- it is just that these perceptions only sometimes reflect reality.

Can I see where you're pulling all these numbers from? I'm not doubting your statements, I'd just like to see the hard data behind it myself, especially for things like the ESMBTAV against infantry and the performance of the ESFAI weapons.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/stats-stats-and-more-stats-nc-hardmode.150797/

Dash's post above is a good example that is current.

The API data I was referring to regarding pre-nerf NC MAX score advantage versus post-nerf Prowler score advantage was pull some time back in late March early April so I am not sure how easy it will be to find- also, unless someone copy+pasted the data itself then I believe the API only goes back so far so I doubt that it would be easily recoverable.

SOE may be able to do it but for some reason, despite offering the API publicly, they seem really touchy about delving into any of the numbers themselves (only recall Higby discussing the numbers when the Magrider nerfs took place) and CupBoy used to be one of the best at pulling the relevant data but apparently got enough flak from SOE about doing so that he moved on. Strange when you think about it, since at the very least that kind of data gives everyone an objective anchor for a reasoned discussion- it is as if they prefer people posting worthless personal anecdotal information and arguing about it.

Sweet. I remember one that listed infantry and vehicle kills separate, but I've no idea what happened to it or where I first found it.

Wait you're going to compare the scores of a MAX to the scores of a tank????

No no, what I was doing was point out that the general consensus on the pre-nerf NC MAX was that it was gamebreaking OP yet if we look at the data from that time it was only outscoring TR MAX by 8.5%. However, even after the nerfed the Prowler it was still outscoring the NC Vanguard by 20%.

So, something that nets you 8.5% higher score is considered gamebreakingly OP and in desperate need of fixing but something else that nets you 20% higher score after being nerfed is consider just fine.

I'm not comparing MAX score to Tank score, I'm comparing the ratio of MAX to MAX to the ratio of Tank to Tank and there is a difference.

I brought this up back when the data was posted & made the exact same arguments. Was met with nothing but flaming, criticism, told to learn to play, called baddie by endless line of TR players. They could never come up with data or a argument. Hell, I've seen screenshots during Prowlers golden days with players having 300-700 k/d just sitting in a Prowler using HE rounds. Just sick & tired of the double standard development & endless nerf circle to get people to play other factions. Even with said nerfs, TR has always consisted remained on top of almost every category or damned close. Anytime you bring it up, the people who rely on OP weapons/vehicles immediately get defensive out of fear of losing their advantage.

True enough, though not of everyone.

I commend the OP for starting such a thread as I can empathize with the situation- no one likes to be told that they are only doing as well as they are in part because of what they are using rather than how well they are doing. It is not an easy thing to admit.

I think you're right that there are some players who are at least somewhat aware that they are having a slightly easier go of things and just want to protect that advantage but I tend to think they are in the minority. I think most people just suffer from the fundamental attribution error.

I remember a time we NC were OP. I remember that time fondly.... It was back in tech test / beta >.>

YES! I'll take this version of the Striker.

Lancer does equivalent amount of damage to tanks as Striker and is dumbfire and has extremely high velocity. You are maybe thinking of making the striker a weak anti MAX/ infantry suppression weapon or something?

Doubt they will change this due to the fact the weapons on the NC side aren't really 'slower' firing like back in Planetside one where the Assault Rifles, the Cycler and the Gauss Rifle were 'comparible' but it did require more rounds to hit with the Cycler than the Gauss. In this game, with the low TTKs, no one really notices the 'difference between the guns persay short of the more skilled, ammo conservative types.

Supposedly, this will be changed so the fractures AI damage will be significantly less than it is now for GU15. This is a Wait and see bit.

This is going to be impossible to fix. From experience from Planetside 1 when the TR had their AI and AV MAX (Dual Cycler and Pounder) swapped... The Pounder was terrible for AV due to range and the fact that you had to arch your shot so dramatically to hit targets further away that there was a limit to how effective it was. To fix that, they opted to swap the Dual Cycler with the Pounder. The Dual Cycler being a heavier Cycler mounted on a MAX, it was basically sporting 12mm or 20mm guns. Problem was, it was still effective as an AI MAX because of sheer volume of rounds being fired at the infantry, even after lowering the AI damage component to encourage people to use it for something other than AI.

In the case of the Vulcan, you can't make it seem 'less' damage wise because the sheer volume of rounds. And in the case of 'reasonability' you can't lower the AV damage or AI damage (Well, you can lower the AI some more, but then, the issue will be why the hell do the VS and NC have 'two-three hit kill ability' versus the TR needing to empty nearly half a clip to a whole clip to achieve the same thing argument that is bound to rise.

The issue here is, that the Vulcan weapon should be setup less as the 'AV' weapon, and more for the AI weapon. The Marauder, on the other hand, setup to be the AV weapon where again, you have the higher AV damage and slightly better range, but lower AI damage so the round spamming of it will be similar to the NC/VS AV weapons as far as AI effectiveness and AV level too. Balance wise, it will fit the basic TR 'spam' stance balance out the fact that spam != better because of likely chance of missing due to volume.

Thing is, it's niche is the fact it is what it is now... The Lockon change to where it also follows its original design, which was to be a lockon weapon the user has to track its target through the flight is about on par what it was back in PS1.

The thing a lot of you need to grasp... Is that the Lancer and Phoenix are not 'Sidegrades' and the Striker wasn't suppose to be a sidegrade either. These are weapons designed for a particular purpose. The Lancer is a beam weapon with a longer range, near instant hitting ability. As much as you guys want to make this out to be a 'side grade' to the Default RL or even the Decimator, this is not the case. Same thing with the Phoenix. You are all lying to yourselves wanting to 'niche' or 'pigeonhole' these things this way. The Phoenix/Striker/Lancer are Faction Motiff based weapons, designed by their factions to fit a role their faction focuses on. The problem I see here is the foolish expectation of it to being something it is not, namely a 'side grade' of an NS weapon.

The problem here is perspective. Before someone goes 'You are nothing more than a TR who wants to keep his toys.' Just stop. I have an NC character at 64... A TR and VS character at 56, and spent the last week making sure my VS character is above the TR. I face the TR as much as I face the VS or NC on my other character and what I have seen in fights frustrate the heck out of me as much with the VS and NC on certain things as well as the TR. The vulcan issue is going to be your biggest issue because of the simple fact that you simply cannot lower the AI damage to solve the issue of its being effective as an AI weapon as well as an AV weapon. The only real option is going to be to make the Marauder and the Vulcan switch places, because, in all honesty, while the 'Vulcan' is known for tankbusting via the A-10 and F14 Tomcats, it is also because of the fact it is firing a lot of depleted uranium rounds (lots of mass) in a short period of time with also extra force along with it (A-10s and F14s are flying at higher speeds than most land vehicles + firing velocity + heavy mass rounds + gravity assisting) will hammer armor decently. The vulcans in this game should be relegated to the TR version of the AI gun and the Marauder switched to being an AP round versus HE to fit the TR weapon motiff and bring things a bit back to par.

I also doubt it will change. And I don't really know HOW they could possibly change it. But it does count to the overall 'theme'.

I agree, and I'm eagerly awaiting. I just mentioned this because as of this GU this is still the case and thus-far still counts to the overall 'theme'

They could potentially decrease the damage per round on the Vulcan-H. It's to strong on the Harasser platform. Or fix the survivability of the Harasser itself to balance it out more. However this would hurt the other factions Harassers more then the Vulcan-H Harasser. So I think this problem is more complex. When it comes to the Vulcan on the Prowler, I think it's balanced. Because on the slow platform of the prowler it really does trade range for damage. The NC AI alternative could use a bit of balancing.

With sidegrade I meant the purposes of design. The NC get the Annihilator that's a 'lock on to everything' and a TV guided missile. The VS get the Annihilator that's a 'lock on to everything' and a laserbeam like weapon. The TR get the Annihilator that's a 'lock on to everything' and the Striker that's a 'lock on to everything with more damage'.
I don't really count as the 'lock on to everything' as a faction specific ability since all the other factions also have access to it and the fact that the vehicles don't have the ability either. Faction specific to the TR is the large magazines and rate of fire, and this is what it does have.
However, I do not know how to fix this. And I don't think they can. But it's still a better alternative over the similar weapon of the other factions. And thus adds to the overarching 'theme'.

I don't really agree it's perspective. There are sheets and charts all over these forums. Also extensive mathematical calculations made by some people with full explanation with what they are doing and how they come with the stats to reference.
For me the 'You are nothing [...] as well as the TR." part was not needed, I don't think this and would not use this as a 'refutation' because of the language used in your post.
As I said earlier, nothing the TR has is really massively OP, and thus don't require massive nerfs. (Lock on mechanic bug could use fixing and the AV MAX weapon adjustment is deserved in my book). It's just the over arching 'theme' of some of the TR weapons that make them appear stronger then the other factions. And the Vulcan-H is a good example of this. TR generally doesn't really sacrifice much to be good at something else, they are just mediocre in both.

From what I understand Striker does 2500 damage and Lancer does 1500 damage against tanks fully charged up.

The striker should be strictly an anti-tank weapon. I am not sure how it should be balanced, but it definitely can't remain as it is. Perhaps dumbfire with 300 damage per rocket, max? It would still be a huge amount of damage. The upsides would be that missing with the first shot wouldn't matter that much. Your missed shots would help you calibrate your aim so you are more likely to hit with the other shots. The downside would be the longer exposed time, but you could pop in and out of view.

Striker does something like 5*500 and Lancer does something like 2*1500. People always ignore in these "discussions" that both Striker and Lancer have both magazines and fire rates. If you want to balance it with lancer then 500 is good enough for a launcher with slower projectiles. Unless we say something like that Stiker becomes 5*300 dumbfire with slower projectile and Lancer becomes something like 2*600 with fast projectile.

If it's going to be dumbfire over 5 projectiles it shouldn't go below 400 per rocket, otherwise you run into the same problem the Prowler had early on. If you hit all 5 rockets the best you can hope for is to do the same damage as the default rocket launcher, and in most cases you'll be doing less than that. Who wants to use a weapon like that?

In any case I'd love for the Striker to get faster dumbfire projectiles. It would solve most of the complaints about the weapon while making it more fun to use.

The problem with the TR gear is it's very friendly to new users.

The comparison here is to the 'noob tube' from that game. You know the one.

The noob tube, and TR weaponry in general falls under the same category, is not 'best in show.' It has a lot of weapons that are not what the skilled players go to, because many do not perform to the degree that others do in the hands of a skilled player. Take the Gauss SAW, for instance - many TR are scared of that thing, and rightfully so.


The problem is that the TR weapons are easier to be effective with when you are new. The striker is was great for someone just starting out, while more experienced TR heavies will ditch the thing in favor of something with less restrictions. The default carbines, etc. likewise. The prowler with its two-shot HEAT cannon, putting near-insta-gib of any infantry in the hands of the 1/2 prowler driver to a degree the other factions can only be jealous of. The Vulcan is very forgiving of some missed shots.

None of these things is game-breaking in a high-skill game. In fact, many are even sub-optimal. In a low-skill game, though, TR weapons are amazing.


And herein lies the problem: new players gravitate towards the TR because it is easier to win as TR when you're new. You can get kills effectively enough to feel you're making a difference, and these days you're also rolling with the faction that probably has the population advantage. This comes on the heels of a faction that was underdog gear-wise to the VS for a while, so many of the commanders have been forced to up their game - and now find themselves commanding a huge army of newbs who have weapons that are effective enough in newb hands.


Basically, 'RoF' as a faction trait is a really bad trait. It has the potential to hamstring the TR down the line (remember the late-game TR in PS1), but it also makes the TR the most appealing to new players because its the faction they can feel effective.

Compare this to the NC. The NC weapons are high alpha weapons that have a higher skill requirement to master, but once mastered are capable of wrecking faces in ways the TR are jealous of. But the NC are never a major threat because there are never enough of them to be a major threat. There's never enough of them because the new player experience as NC is 'this faction performs poorly (in my hands)' and anyone who is shopping around for a faction that feels right to them goes TR. Because the TR guns 'feel more powerful' (i.e. they are easier to be effective with when you are new).

Additionally, someone who is skilled with (say) the NC guns who tries TR will go 'hoo boy these are easy to use!' - which leads to more people assuming TR are flat out overpowered, while the old guard TR are shaking their heads and assuming everyone else is calling them OP because everyone else is a whiner.


That's the problem with the TR: their weapons have the best marketing/PR campaign.


And the solution?

Easy: give the TR less 'easy' weapons and more high-skill weapons. Give the TR veterans something they can actually get behind, which at the same time will have the side effect of making the TR less likely to be the number one pick for new players because these high-skill weapons are actually harder to use!