I Want To Talk About TR Problems.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Flukeman62, Sep 19, 2013.

  1. Febz

    The problem with the dps argument is that it is an almost moot point, and would be if not for nanoweave, which I think should be removed from the game in favor of a more unique suit slot, since almost every equivalent weapon has the same or nearly the same ttk. I will however concede that low rof is more punishing, but that has and will always be the truth with low rof weapons. You knew what you were getting into when you chose the faction with that faction trait. There's no real way out of it either. You can't just give them a better ttk, otherwise they would be supremely overpowered in the hands of anyone even a little competent.
    I do think however that the NC could stand to have a better overall ads cone of fire than the other factions, including while moving, but that's up to SOE to fix. I also think the TR agree with me when I say a little variety in our weapons would be appreciated, as well as a move away from bland but OP NS based ES weapons. Nanite System weapons aren't very Empire Specific after all, and as we've seen are almost always overpowered. All and all I find the TR and VS to be on equal footing, with the NC just needing more accurate ads fire to put them on par. The obviously OP outliers excluded of course.
    Also just a minor point, but on average the VS have the lowest mag capacity.
    • Up x 1
  2. harmypants

    GD-7F and Serpent tie for highest RoF and DPS, neither of which are available to TR. Both of which have TR-like reload times too.

    Regardless, the short reload time on the Trac 5 is longer than the long reload time of the Solstice, and only just shorter than the long reload time on the Mercenary.
    And yes, while you might come out on top in a semi-extended firefight every now and then, you have twice the downtime and vulnerability every time you reload compared to other factions, and if you take out an enemy in a 1 on 1 with less than 30 bullets (which happens almost every time) and come across another enemy 2 seconds later, you either have whatever's left of that magazine or you're mid-reload and still will be while the enemy starts attacking.

    And I still stand by the lack of variety being a factor.
  3. NC_agent00kevin

    The problem with threads like this and any threads concerning TR weapons is this:

    When you and a thousand others present actual in game experiences, it is called 'anecdotal evidence' and dismissed.

    TR defenders throw up stats pages that do not actually present a clear and accurate image of what actually happens in game.

    When stats are produced that do not work in TR's favor, TR defenders decry those very same stats they rely on to support their defense.

    TR defenders point out a single weapon available to opposing factions and hang their hat on it; claiming that since one weapon only usable by certain classes fits into their own faction trait that all things are equal.

    In short, the TR have very forgiving weapons that also perform 'double duty' far better than any other factions' weapons. they are far more flexible in battle. A Fracture Max can destroy vehicles with ease and then turn around and go into a CqC infantry fight with the same level of effectiveness. A Vulcan Harasser can easily dispatch a Lightning tank and then shred infantry with the same effectiveness as when attacking armor. A Striker Heavy can attack both air and ground vehicles with equal effectiveness that is far above and beyond the effectiveness of similar weapons available to opposing factions. Its not a matter of one thing making the faction imbalanced; its a matter of many weapons that they have in aggregate - something called 'power creep'.
    • Up x 12
  4. Aegie

    To be fair, it is not as though TR are so OP that they just eat everyone for breakfast. The statistical difference in performance is relatively small, all things considered. That being said, this difference is just about everywhere, from infantry weapons, to vehicles, to MAXs. Moreover, while the difference may only be 5-10% it does appear to be stable and being on the receiving end for prolonged periods of times does get you down, especially when you realize that this difference is everywhere. Sure, I do better with the Razer than the ACX-11, but it is kind of irrelevant what weapon I choose if they all are more or less underperforming- even if only by a slight margin.

    I think part of what you are witnessing is that the game is, in fact, maturing. In the beginning we had flinch values that were so poorly constructed that the game was practically broken. They had to fix that before we even could know what is what. Now that they have addressed some of the most glaring issues (though, it is true that new glaring issue can and have cropped up) with balance and have loads and loads of data and players have spent countless hours playing it is the systematic details that need to be addressed. Is 5-10% difference that big of a deal? Here and there, no- if one faction is a bit higher here and the other a bit higher there then things feel different but if the difference is stable and the numbers appear to show that it is stable and it occurs in only one faction then as time wears on so do those issues and the discrepancy feels bigger in part because cumulatively it is.

    For instance, lets assume that playing faction A you have a score of 10 certs per hour (forget if that is realistic). Now with faction B you have a score that is only 10% greater, so you would score 11 certs per hour. Now, consider that a lot of people have put several hundred hours into the game. Lets say you have someone with 500 hours of play. With faction A that means they would have earned 5,000 certs and with faction B they would have earned 5,500. That is 500 additional certs or 50 additional hours that would be needed to reach that level with faction A. For causal players, no big deal, but lets consider that SOE wants this game to be viable for at least a couple of years and there are players who would like to keep playing and stay interested for at least a couple of years. That is a big commitment and it is easy to see why people interested in making that commitment would want to get the most out of the time the spend playing. True, we should play for fun, but with prices and cert unlocks what they are you cannot ignore when one faction consistently gets more for less. You also cannot ignore the effect it has on having fun when there is a perception, backed by some fair evidence, that you may be at a disadvantage.
    • Up x 3
  5. Febz

    Except the fact that the Fractures and the Striker are both getting their deserved nerfs, and honestly if the striker is going to stay a lock-on I say add another nerf to it's range bringing the air lock range down to 400 and the ground lock range down to 300. It won't change much and will still be almost just as effective since usually when you're locking on to something it's already within 300 meters, but it will help in certain occasions like flight ceiling dogfighting.

    As for the vulcan it's not overpowered and anyone getting killed as infantry are charging at it or oblivious. People keep harping on about the fact it only requires 4 out of 60 bullets to kill, but forget that when it took 9, the vulcan often had to reload to kill a single man. It is not accurate in the least and is definitely worse than the saron for AI and probably on par with the Enforcer. What people need to complain about is the Harasser having empire specific weapons on it and being too durable to boot.
  6. Crayv

    If you are going to compare the Striker to the Annihilator would you please not say it does 5x500 (empty mag) but use the short reload time when comparing it to the Annihilator? The Striker has a long reload of 5 seconds. The Annihilator has a reload of 4.7.
  7. harmypants

    That's a whole lot of useless ad hominem right there, so thanks.


    This is more like it.
    Fracture MAX is getting a nerf to AI soon, which is welcome.

    TR Harassers are imbalanced more because of the Harasser itself than the weapons it has. Both the marauder and vulcan require you to be kind of close, yet with comp armour you can remain close and competitive with an MBT and come out on top. The balance of risk/reward is 100% skewed.

    Strikers were a good concept marred by a stupid lock on gimmick. I have noticed some TR defend it by going by DPS similarities with the Annihilator, but the the logic behind that is always incorrect.
  8. NC_agent00kevin


    Unfortunately, this is what happens in most threads about these weapons here.

    Your response there fits right in with TR saying that actual experiences arent valuble/viable data sources; only this time you've gone above and beyond and applied it to interactions outside of the game itself. Bravo!
    • Up x 2
  9. NC_agent00kevin


    Yep, unknown future mechanics completely negate months of current imbalance and make a great rebuttal to issues we are experiencing right now. Because just knowing that SOE is working on something makes it all better, right?
    • Up x 1
  10. Aegie

    I disagree, you can absolutely balance around high vs. low ROF but it requires taking into to consideration the inherent advantages of each, trying your best with these, doing good analyses with your data, and then tweaking values based on empirical evidence of how the weapons, on average, perform.

    Saying I knew what I was getting into when I chose NC sounds a lot like saying NC should have the faction trait of being worse. That is ridiculous.

    Definitely, I think TR does need more variety in some areas but I would hardly expect to trade variety for performance because that is a bit silly.

    VS have the lowest mag capacity? I do not think so, could you show me where you got this? Desperado (NC) has only 14, ACX-11 and Reaper (NC) have only 20 and there are no VS equivalents to these in terms of mag capacity iirc.
  11. Flukeman62

    i would like to remind you lot to keep posts constructive and please do not slander individual factions.
  12. Febz

    It was stated by SOE they are getting redone. If you wish to act like an *** be my guest, but SOE has stated multiple times that the lock on code was a dangerous one and that max av weapons of ALL empires was overperforming against infantry and as such they are working on it. You can attack them all you want, but this wasn't something that could be easily done.

    No, this isn't what I meant. What I meant to say was that choosing NC meant you were going to have a higher skill floor due to rof, and that there was no real way around it. I still think that the NC deserve more ads accuracy and sustained fire accuracy than any other faction to make up for this disadvantage, and give NC a real tactical advantage in medium and long range encounters.

    I also agree with your first point, and it shows that SOE is afraid of an attempt to give NC a few small advantages to see if it evens them out. Even if it results in a temporarily OP state, infantry weapons can easily be modified so it could be fixed quickly.

    And as for mag size, on average aside from the ACX-11 and Reaper, which also need ammo capacity buffs and honestly I see no harm with bumping them all the way up to 30 rounds they already have a ton of disadvantages, the VS as far as I can recall have the least amount of high ammo count lmgs most of theirs are 50 and 75 rounds if I remember correctly.
  13. Ohmlink

    For the that buff I'd say one or the other, doing both would make that a mob killer on a whole other level. I'd be okay with that if vehicles were relatively rare, but since everyone would start rolling that it would be same game different faction.
  14. NC_agent00kevin


    Great, now its time for personal attacks. Because thats your last resort as a rebuttal, right? Calling people names and insulting them makes you right in your mind. Fortunately, thats not how it works in an intelligent and civilized society.

    You have no real rebuttal, and thats quite clear. Name calling is how people like you debate; presenting well thought out points and stating a case based on current conditions is how people like me debate. We differ greatly and further communication with you will be pointless after this final response. In fact, by attacking me personally and calling me names, you just qualified for my ignore list. Congratulations.

    Pointing out changes on the horizon do not negate what we have now, and do not make things all better just by knowing they are working on it. If that is to be your one and only way of debating current game mechanics, this is the wrong thread for you. In fact, all threads discussing current problems and underlaying causes are not where you need to be. See, we are discussing the current state of the TR, not what may be in the future. What may or may not happen in the future has absolutely no bearing on what is happening right now.

    Lastly, nothing in my post can even remotely be construed as attacking SOE. Nice try, but no. Actually, its not really even a nice try - its grasping for some sort of victory and a way to feel good and right about your nonsense posts.
    • Up x 2
  15. Aegie

    Well, in most games where you have a high skill floor is where you also have a high skill ceiling. NC has the highest skill floor and the lowest skill ceiling :confused:. I chose NC precisely because I thought that they would be more difficult to learn but in learning they would be better performing than others. The way it usually works but SOE got it backwards. Well, really I went with NC because I prefer more of a sharpshooter type role where accurate high powered shots are the crave- unfortunately, there are not any primary LA weapons that are competitive semi-auto aside from CQC with the commissioner if you can land the first bullet.

    I do like some of your points here about greater ADS/sustained accuracy, except that IMO there is already plenty of that- it's not having trouble hitting targets consistently in ADS IMO that is really the sticking point. Any NC who stuck it out and kept practicing when flinch was bogus had to learn how to control the weapon or they probably would have jumped ship long ago. In part, other game mechanics- like ridiculous range compression thanks to silly damage degradation values and the fact that hipfire provides both more and better aiming information than ADS- prevent ADS from really shining the way I think it should and I do think this too contributes to the problem.

    However, I do think 30 rounds in the mag may be a bit much for the ACX-11 and Reaper because then damage per mag would be much higher for them than other options. Seems like now after some feedback I would say 25 rounds and greater projectile velocity (so it can actually do well at range) would be for the best.
  16. shd

    I think when talking about balance, people keep looking at the wrong things. Infantry weapons have the highest skill cap and are more subjective then any other (i find VS weapons better then both NC or TR counterparts). If you give a skilled player any rifle, he will beat an average player no matter what they use.

    The problem is the skill-less easy to use weapons and those are the ones people complain the most. It just so happens that atm TR have the most of those. Striker - point in general area and click, fracture - don't need to be good aimer, prowler - 2 shots of error forgiveness, marauder, vulcan - spray and pray, zoe - heavy on steroids without the need for ads.

    It's the weapons everyone can do good with that make a game unbalanced. TR have quite a few of those, VS few and NC none. WDS does and will continue to prove this point.
  17. Febz

    What you're saying is that nothing they're doing to fix current problems matters, when the entire thread is about fixing current TR problems. What exactly am I supposed to be rebutting here you're making no sense whatsoever.

    I agree with you on the damage degradation part. There really is no long range combat in this game unless you're carrying a sniper rifle. That's a game mechanic whose change would actually benefit all empires, but the NC would benefit the most. Weapons like the ACX and the AMC would have actual niches to fill as mid-long range carbines. That and burst fire weapons could finally be given a role through having slower damage fall off than any other weapon making them actually usable in combat. This is something that should have been done long ago, but I can see why SOE are afraid. They've set everything up around close to mid range combat but that leaves some weapons, most of which belong to the NC, without any real use. They need to change this, but it would take time and resources to do so, and as such we may never see real long range combat.
    • Up x 1
  18. Deschain

    Problem with threads like these, they are on the wrong forum, soe doesn't read them. The whole conversation is a waste of fingers and thoughts, take it to Reddit or twatter.
    • Up x 2
  19. Phrygen


    Dash....

    Its so hard to read through your biases. Its not that you don't try to present valid arguments, its just they are so one sided. I never read balance ideas when you post about TR. All i read are requests for Nerfs.

    And there are plenty of draw backs for TR faction traits. Complete mobility loss for lock-down and anchor mode is the first that comes to mind. "super fury" as you claim, has been nerfed. Striker is continuously receiving nerfs, the last one i heard of is reduction in range. fracture damge is being nerfed against infantry.

    It would do you good to play TR for awhile.
  20. DG-MOD-02

    I am going to close this thread now. Please keep posts constructive on these forums.