Devs: Magrider Issues

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Wolfborne, May 20, 2019.

  1. boey

    I'm out of here. I'm surrounded by gods.
  2. ridicOne

    Ah ok, so your know more about the game than the majority of the players and the devs.

    May I forever bow to the God teir known as Demigan "the mighty all knowing"
  3. Demigan

    No I'm pointing out that just because the majority including the people who should know better believes something does not make it true.

    Real-life examples: the Brexit in which politicians that should know better convinced an entire country that it would be economically better to get out of europe, even though the economical benefits of staying in europe already pay for all the money they "lose" to europe.

    Or a country ending up with a choice between Hillary or Trump and many defending their choice...?

    It doesnt take a genius to figure out that either choice above shouldnt have been a choice at all. The people and politicians did not know enough about the subject(s) to make a proper choice and so they used their "experience" rather than the informed voice of statistics and historical actions predicting the future.

    Its also madness that the politicians put the choice in the hands of the people. The whole point of thr politicians is that they get elected for their views and then get the time, resources, manpower and equipment to make informed choices so a factory worker doesnt have to spend weeks preparing a proper informed vote for a referendum.

    I'm not saying I'm an all-knowing super entity, I'm pointing out that just because the majority believes something based for 99% on "experience" (read bias) does not mean it is true or should be like that.
    • Up x 1
  4. FateJH

    A person who pursues a world they want to live in rather than accept an inevitable decided existence, one defined by someone else's coldly precise logic and inflexible design, is what this world would consider the basis for being "heroic."

    Your words are a bit callous.
  5. Demigan

    1: The Magrider also scores great against infantry regardless so it's less required to field an AI gun in the first place. The Magrider also has better maneuverability, making it harder to hit with rockets and C4 so infantry are less of a threat.
    2: More topgun uniques can mean different things. If Magriders were pulled less per player it would mean that the Magrider needs the gunners to function. However the Magrider isn't pulled less and the amount of gunners is more than the primaries. This means that gunning for the Magrider is fun and effective, which is also seen in the stats. And it means that gunners don't stay around so the seat can be vacant for the next player to enter. Contrast that to the Vanguard where it's harder to find people willing to gun or worse the Prowler where people don't like gunning because the Prowler main gun is more likely to get the kills and you can see that the Magrider is simply an effective, fun tool to gun for.
    3: It'll also face about the same amount of 2/2 MBT's plus extra 1/2 MBT's. This is the nature of being outnumbered. And still it manages to outperform the other two... Also looking at the difference in topgun usage between the Vanguard and Prowler the difference in performance is much smaller than you would expect especially since the Prowler isn't outnumbered most of the time.
    4: You'll also face more Lightnings as per player the VS pulls more Lightnings than the other two factions. I think we can all agree that Lightnings are easier to kill than Magrisers because they are 1/1 with less health and not enough damage to make up for that. And yet the Vanguards and Prowlers do not seem to benefit from that in their stats... Hmm weird isn't it? So something is kicking the butts of those Vanguards and Prowlers before they can murder a bunch of Lightnings. I wonder what that could be...

    The VS scores better with the Halberd on the Magriser. On the Harasser the stats are more or less the same. So the conclusion should be that the Halberd is better on the Magriser because of the platform it's build on is better than it's counterparts. In other words the Vanguard and Prowler are less capable with the same Halberd as the Magriser.

    We can safely assume that not every Magrider is 2/2. So to get that higher ratio of players gunning than using Magrisers that seat has to be empty a lot of the time, and yet the users manage to get higher stats with the Magriser than with the same gun on other platforms? And the fact that that seat has to be empty a lot in order for another player to take that seat must also mean the Magriser does a lot of fights 1/2 despite having had a gunner in the seat at one point.
    And if the VS has a higher skill using the Halberd on the Magriser, then you should see that skill back when using the Halberd on the Harasser. Yet that doesn't happen so we know that the VS isn't better because of skill. So once again we are left only with the option that it's the platform it's mounted on that causes the discrepancy.

    Yes it should be taken into account that the Magriser has more gunners. But it should also be taken into account that the VS pull more Lightnings per player which should be boosting the Prowler and Vanguard, and the fact that the Magriser is almost chronically outnumbered and that with the numbers available it should be meeting about as much 2/2 Vanguards and Prowlers as there are 2/2 Magrisers on top of the 1/2 Vanguards and Prowlers that will be supporting those 2/2 vehicles.

    And everything I see points to one thing specifically: It's fun and effective gunning for a Magriser for a while, then exit when the Magriser does something else like enter a base allowing another player to enter the gunner seat.

    Now I've said it before: If everyone feels a vehicle or piece of equipment to be unfair and unbalanced then it should be changed. Key word: Changed. Not just buffed, not just nerfed, changed. I'm OK with the Vanguard having it's shield nerfed or removed if that means people find fighting it more fun, but it should get something in return to make the vehicle compete with the other two and keep the vehicle fun. If everyone thinks the Magriser needs to win more straight slugmatches then you could buff it's frontal armor to represent the sloped nature or some similar change, but it would also mean either the Magriser needs to be nerfed somewhere else or the Vanguard and Prowler should get some toy or capability to compensate for this Magriser buff. Fun is the key of the game, but while the players on here complain about how unfun they feel the Magriser is they don't really ask for more fun Magrisers, they ask for straight buffs making it less fun for the opposition.

    By all means add omniversal afterburners to the Magriser, make it faster, let drive circles around other vehicles, upgrade it's DPS. But make sure the Prowler and Vanguard can answer this wil similar upgrades to keep it fun and as balanced as possible.
    • Up x 2
  6. ridicOne


    lol
  7. AllRoundGoodGuy

    I guess the age old adage is applicable, if everyone else is walking off a cliff should you do the same?

    I don't do as much mbt tanking anymore, as I'm trying to grind for my 4th aurax, but in my view, stats are saying one thing and peoples experience say another. Couple of reasons I can think of for this.

    1) Everyone could be just that bad (but if everyone was bad the stats would reflect it)
    2) Confirmation Bias (I lost to X, while forgetting I won to Y)
    3) Stats are plain wrong and peoples experience are correct (No way to confirm an experience unless the stats back it up)
    4) I like jello (Ran out of ideas)

    Regardless, there is a discrepancy here, but it's up to the individual to figure out if they are correct. The evidence is here, who has the umph to take a mostly unbiased look at it?
  8. pnkdth


    When you claim VS to hop merrily around the top gun, why should we not assume NC/TR do the very same? This claim applied equally across all factions would only mean ever more 1/2 MBTs on NC/TR (which is why I stick to the ratio of primary/top and VKPU).

    Also, why is the lightning data indicative of skill for NC but for VS it has to be because of Magrider being powerful? Looking at the harasser data they show similar performance as their Halberd on the Maggie (the top gunner data posted earlier show VS not exactly dominating but rather tend to lead more often). The Maggie isn't a harasser, nor handles like one either, and a weapon such a 143/750 or 167/600 damage model will not perform or handle equally on different classes, weapons, or even within the same faction.

    All in all though, if you want us to accept your assumptions you must apply them on all factions.

    I wholeheartedly agree on the fun aspect. Watching that Vanguard with harasser physics made me kind of depressed since that is what tank combat could be like. It would even allow for more bells and whistles on the Maggie. That said, I don't think we'll see such changes made at this point in the game's life.

    The sections not quoted I feel I've already expanded on at great length in recent posts (kinda gone in circles and I'll just agree to disagree).
    • Up x 1
  9. Savadrin


    I'll take the Halberd in any of the three as the weapon itself performs the same. Currently I'm doing my best to try and inflate those Mag-H numbers, lol.
  10. Demigan

    That's what the politicians are for.

    Often in scenario's where a politician is asked questions about a subject, a few (semi-neutral) experts in that field will sit in a seperated booth listening to the questions, they give numbers, statistics and answers on how it goes which the politician relays to the people in front of him. But the point is that politicians are picked for their view, so these politicians will use that data to form an opinion that is hopefully similar to that of their voters if those voters got the same information, and then they try to make policy and rules based on that.

    Otherwise we would have our experts run the country. And I'm actually in favor of having the politicians (and voters maybe) do tests to see if they actually understand the subject they are trying to make rules about and have this carry a certain weight in how much their vote counts (it would never go below 75% I think as that might delude the voting too much and give people with knowledge too much power that they can abuse but is significant enough to make an impact if you don't know enough about the subject). It should stop things like people who don't even know what a keyboard is ask Mark Zuckenberg why "his" Google is doing certain things and making internet rules based on this practically non-existant knowledge.
    • Up x 1
  11. Demigan

    I already explained this actually. The Magriser has more things it can do than the other two tanks. It can enter bases for instance and the drivers are more inclined to try longer routes to reach the enemy on a flank. This also means that the gunner might gun for just a while and then leave when the driver changes gears and the fight isn't as interesting for the gunner anymore.

    Because it's indicative of an equal skill across all 3 factions, not just indicative of skill for the NC. The fact that the performance is more or less equal amongst all 3 factions with an NS weapon that wields zero faction-specific content means that the skill overall needs to be equal. This indicates that any weapon that scores better than it's supposed counterparts, in this case MBT's, then it's because of the equipment. Not because of the skill or cooperation of the driver and gunner.

    Now if the Magriser was pulled less per player than the other MBT's then it would be because Magrisers are required to have a gunner and no one will pull a Magriser when there isn't a gunner ready and present. But there are an equal number of Magrisers per player as for the other two MBT's, meaning that it's simply easier to get a gunner for your tank.

    Why would it be easier to get a gunner for your tank? Well the reasons are limited, it could be because the gun you can equip is more powerful than those of other factions. Or it could be because the vehicle it's mounted on offers better chances for the gunner to be effective and have fun.
    Since the VS score better with the NS Halberd than the other two MBT's while on any non-faction NS weapon they score about the same the only conclusion can be that the Magriser offers a better chances for the gunner. This is reflected in the fact that yes, the Magriser scores better than the other two factions.
    There is a negative loop in there. Because the Magriser is more effective for gunners more players will gun for it. But for the Vanguard and Prowler the players become less likely to gun as they might get their butt kicked. This causes Vanguards and Prowlers to lose more, causing more players to choose not to enter a gunseat. The result is that the Magriser is less OP than it seems, but OP enough to cause this loop to start. So the change to make the Magriser closer to the other two MBT's should be small and incremental or you'll likely overshoot the goal of making these MBT's similar and nerf the Magriser too much. Although instead of nerfing it's better to simply put small buffs on the other MBT's instead, because nerfing is rarely a good way to balance something and keep it fun unless it's too overtly OP.

    And that's exactly the point, aside from downplaying the difference in Halberd data and saying the VS score better with them on the Halberd.

    http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/6118
    http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/6120
    http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/item/6119

    Notice how the TR somehow get a higher VKPH for example than the VS, despite pulling more Vulcan Harassers for obvious reasons (which could actually be the reason why the TR score a bit better as Harasser packs are more common and a Halberd Gunner amongst them can stay at more distance and get "free" kills).

    I did, why didn't you see that? I quite literally used the NS data for example to show that all 3 factions have the same skill level when it comes to carbon-copy weapons that aren't involved in faction-specific items in any way. I didn't use it to show the NC was somehow the most skilled. I did mention I think once that the NC tend to score an insignificant bit better on many NS weapons showing that the "NC be unskilled" trope is a lie and you could almost make a case that the NC is in fact the most skilled faction. Almost, as I said the differences are too small to be significant.

    I actually think that as the game nears it's end they'll try more ludicrous and heavy changes. After all the status-quo doesn't seem to keep the game afloat, better try some over-the-top changes to make the game feel fresh right? Maybe we will see that Vanguard with Harasser physics.
    • Up x 1
  12. Savadrin


    I don't think most people have caught on to how broken Physics-H are right now. With proper application I can send any moving vehicle in the game off into the woods, sometimes through the air.
  13. InexoraVC

    Guys, I realized that the last post in this thread will always be the Demigan's post :) With lot of quotation/words/sentences. Look - he has ~5 avg messages per day since 2014. He takes it serious. Really. No joke.

    I think we're already circling.
    Developers can see a lot of useful (and unuseful) information here.
    If they are interested.
    I doubt that...

    P.S. for Demigan: yeah yeah, Magrider is the best MBT, Vanguard is uderpowered, Prowler is intermediate, spandex tights the balls and Wrel doesn't like NCs and nerfed NC's MAXes to zero. Calm down :)
  14. Campagne

    New data!

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/fix-the-mag-rider.254917/

    Why no, I didn't accidentally post on the wrong thread with no means of removing the post, don't be silly! I totally just wanted to give an update to the data, yes that's it. :p