Devs: Magrider Issues

Ya' feel like making a quantifiable claim which can be challenged or supported at all?

They might be use AV 70% and 86% but if VS also use their top guns at above 100% of the time (which is more likely to mean that the same player is crewing a different kind of top gun which suggest it is a tank crew taking turns in a Magrider). VS is also fairly well known for having their secondary gun as their "main gun" when considering shots to kill per primary (especially pre-CAI).

It is also quite interesting to see just how often VS pull dedicated AV Magriders (combining the 86% numbers with the more than 1:1 ratio of Magrider primary uniques) which definitely has to be taken into consideration in Vehicle vs Vehicle combat. Especially if this also means that the NC pull more Vanguards with less top gunners and less AV per Vanguards. All in all this does show that both NC and TR are quite happy to roll out on their own in their Vanguards. Naturally, there are Vanguard crews out there as well.

However, with the data in mind we have to recognise that the vast majority of Magriders out there will be fully crewed compared to the other factions. This will undoubtably affect performance data (especially if viewed simply as MBT vs MBT combat).

That being said, it might just be as simple as it is more fun to gun as a top gunner in a Maggie. I just think the answer lies between the two, fun/effective to top gun and that the primary for both TR/NC are good enough on their own so they rather have more of them than a gunner up top. There are probably more reasons and there is little which indicates the Magrider is actually struggling at all.

In the big scheme of things, VS historically wins more alerts, so they should have some sort of nerf. If the mag truly does deserve a buff, then VS needs a significant nerf somewhere else. Moving accuracy on rifles? Scythe front profile? Max accuracy?

I think the most likely explanation is that more randos jump into Magriders simply because that just seems a bit more common than a larger percentage of VS crews swapping roles. You are right about the topgun being a major contributor to DPS though, I suppose. I imagine that might help keep the slot filled more often if nothing else.

Actually, the Magriders also pull more AI turrets as well. I did the math for AI turrets as well AV but didn't include them because I didn't think it was relevant. The data:

NC -- 15443 total Vanguards : 1456 total filled anti-infantry topguns = 1:0.0943
TR -- 16463 total Prowlers : 806 total TR filled anti-infantry topguns = 1:0.0490
VS -- 10200 total Magriders : 1913 total filled anti-infantry topguns = 1:0.1875

Though once again I attribute this more to the base platform being more fun to use an AI weapon with than the other two MBTs. But this does also suggest that there are Magriders out there with weapons that struggle to damage enemy armour if at all, which still manage to survive against enemy retaliation as they launch disco balls of death down a mountain. (Or just use a boring old Kobalt).

Ultimately I really think the differences are largely due to how enjoyable the position is and how readily available gunners will be as a result. I don't particularly doubt the Magrider does better with a gunner than a Vanguard or Prowler does with their own gunners, but the dramatic difference in effective performance increases compared to the number of extra Mag gunners seems very disproportionate.

Suffice it to say, in my mind the data seems to suggest more people will gun for the Magrider because it's fun rather than because it's effective. Sorta reflected with the Vanguard--NC harasser user disparity as well, where the difference in effectiveness is not as extreme as the difference in user counts.

I don't really think anything presented here thus far has demonstrated the Magrider is under-performing. Interesting look at the Magrider which I've never really done before, but it seems to keep up on most if not all fronts, in my opinion.

Hold on the fact that Magriders have more topgunners than primary gun users is a red flag that the Magrider ISNT 2/2 all the time. After all, how come there was any space for that gunner to jump in the Magrider gunseat?

Also since we arent discussing how the Magrider is supposedly UP... what are we doing? Is the "but 2/2 Magrider happens more often" a last gambit because the Magriders supposedly terrible stats are actually showing the Magrider performing pretty badbutt? The 70% vs 86% difference of topgunners isnt extremely big, but when factoring in how Magrider topguns are apparently taken by multiple gunners and empty inbetween...

just read "1" and already see what this guy doesn't even competent in vechicle battles.

He compares Prowler AP and Magrider AP, but this is wrong.
We have 3 types of guns - HEAT (DPS), AP(armor damage, projectile speed), HE (anti infantry)
But unfortinatly across all 3 tanks, only 2 of them can use HEAT - magrider and vanguard.
HEAT outdamage AP, with enough skill even at range. But Prowler is not able to equip HEAT becaue it deal 975dmg, so it cannot oneshot infanty and this makes this gun extremly frustrating with exception of playing with friend and equiping Kobalt for your gunner to deal with infantry.

So most commonly prowlers use AP, but Magrider pilot should always use HEAT cannon and take advantage of it's DPS and his strafing ability (so he can dodge shots, or absorb them by frontal armor). If we compare Prowler's AP and Magrider's HEAT:
3.5+0.5 sec = 1200dmg vs 2.25 sec = 550dmg and 30% barrage buff works only on 3.5 sec part

So yeah prowler still a DPS king, but he created for sitting on hill like a duck and shot from a far so this ability only given them just to not suck so hard in close fight, it can be just kited as well as vanguards shield.

And this is only "1"... vulcan on prowler is common thing? PFFFFFF tell me this in my face cuz i am TR main, this is not true. Gatekeeper has more damage than helberd if all pellets hit and faster by 0.05sec reload speed but to shot all 8 projectiles takes some time u know...

i don't think what we should read it further or even keep discussing itm magrider is fine, you chose wrong faction if you want a tool to just sit still on the hill and farm infantry by one hand.

The numbers are similar it means you are more likely to see a 2/2 Magrider. Indeed, the difference between 70% and 86% isn't that big but considering the ratio between primary/top gun it means that those 86% account for a larger pool in relation to that ratio. It doesn't mean it will be 2/2 all the time but the chance of it being so is MUCH greater than the other two factions.

So if we have more AV Magriders which are fully crewed facing lots more Vanguards who are less likely to be 2/2 it should have an impact on the performance data. How do you reach the conclusion it is crewed by lots of different players? I mean, we can't rule it but then we also must assume the same for the other factions (since it is pure speculation) and we're back to looking at the same stats again.

A gambit or not, I don't know, but looking at the data we have we see that VS use a lot of AV top gunners, both the primary and top guns have a similar number of uniques, which means you are going to be more likely than not to face a 2/2 Magrider relative to facing a Prowler or Vanguard.

I meant it is seems to be more likely that VS players alternate between the primary/top gun. Not necessarily there is a gold rush to be the top gunner. For instance, when I played VS and in an outfit we tended to share the Magrider in the sense that first I get one, then the other get one, etc etc. Though it is also probable that a lot of VS players know about the Magrider at this point.

Similarly, I love gunning a Canister Harasser. Fast paced Mad Max madness.

It is true, I haven't touched much on the performance stuff and before this thread I didn't have much in terms of data on the usage or uniques. I just think it is important to understand player behaviour when we consider balancing. If there is an issue with people maybe not even wanting to top gun as much on TR/NC because it is just a drag or that it isn't even worth it contra it being worth it on the Magrider it is worth exploring. Furthermore, how it affects game balance between primaries/secondaries in general for all MBTs + how to they work together to achieve different effects.

I don't think this would be the case, as we'd expect to see a larger number of users for the main cannons as well.

A bit unrelated but have you ever played the Mad Max game? I really liked it, was quite fun.

Player behavior is very important, I agree. But it's difficult to say exactly how the players are actually behaving on the data alone. We already have these few possible explanations for the discrepancy, and while I'm still confident on it being a fun-based thing acting on it might be the wrong idea.

I think the topguns are in an okay enough place, aside from the ES short-ranged AV weapons' individual balance. In my opinion the major issues still stem from the MBT platforms themselves.

Why? The ratio is more or less 1:1 prim/top gun (with more top guns) and we can see about 14% of the top guns aren't AV which, well, suggest the same players who pulled the others pulled AI/AA or something else. Otherwise the primaries would also increase in numbers.

Not to mention in previous Magrider discussions almost all VS players would express that the top gun was crucial to its performance. It would appear the data is backing them up at this point.

We can continue to speculate as to why and on player behaviour but the writing's on the wall at this point. I was just speculating on various scenarios and behaviours.

Considering the ratio of Magrider pulls per population is more or less equal to the other two MBT's a more likely answer would be that the VS simply switch to their own topgun more often than the other two factions.

Otherwise we would see this kind of teamwork reflected in the stats of other NS weapons like lightning guns or battle sundies.

1st, if I grant you that then we must grant that to all vehicles/factions and it changes nothing.

2nd, nope, since there's never ever been a point made for Sunderers having a compelling reason for secondary gunners in the same way as it has been claimed for the Magrider. How would you see this behaviour in a lightning (a single crew player?) and battle sunderers have been heavily utilised by VS (especially on Emerald where the opposition were the most vocal about how VS keep bringing the cheese).

Is this a typo? HEAT is the stock cannon, I thought.

If we grant a higher likelyhood for the Magrider user to switch to his own topgun to all tanks than it is a moot point to call it a higher likelyhood for the Magrider.

Because the slightly higher skill required to get together with a gunner would be reflected in other activities. And it has to be a higher skill because the 70% 86% difference is too small to account for the difference of main and secondary weapon. It makes no sense to say "yup VS are better at organizing because they require it despite actually scoring pretty damn awesome but that organization isnt visible anywhere else".

Whats more, if the Magrider was truly worse off without a gunner it would see less usage than other tanks as you cant always get a gunner. Yet we see just as many Magriders pulled per player as the amount of MBT's per player on other factions (Campagne calculated this already). So the Magrider isnt as weak as most VS claim (supported by just about every metric found so far).

He means the HEAT of the Prowler is unusable because it cant OHK infantry. That the HEAT can more reliably damage and finish infantry especially with HEAD's reload speed is tossed aside and that the DPS of the Prowler HEAT is still awesome is also ignored. Its the TR copy of the VS complex that their tank is the worst based on opinion and not supported by fact.

Ufffff, lol. I rarely ever pull MBT, but even if I'm doing a ****ter infantry farm it's still AP/Halberd. AP sniping is too trolly to pass up.

Everyone I know who runs lightning/MBT on TR likes HEAT just fine though, this comes as a surprise to me.

The point you are missing is that those percentage is based on what kind of top guns pulled NOT the total amount of top gun uniques. For example, we have 10,200 Magriders with a ratio of top guns which exceeds the number of Magriders and 86% of those are AV. By contrast the LOWER ratio of which NC use top guns + 70% of that lower number makes the ratio even more obvious.

I know for a fact you've seen the threads about Magriders in the past. Almost every VS player will say they tend to crew it as 2/2 (or pull a lightning). Now we have data + player behaviour and if you can't accept that, too bad. But let's say VS players do switch around seats. This means the NC either don't know they can or are unwilling/feel it isn't needed. Similarly, this means VS players are knowing/willing to or feel they have to.

So either the NC MBT drivers are incompetent or VS players (by their own admission/statements) are more happy to crew their MBTs fully (which the data suggest). Feel free to draw whichever conclusion most appeals to you.

So each metric I have looked at so far has showed that the Maggie is performing proportionally as good or better than the other MBTs.

Are we now reduced to arguing a fallacy?

It's a crew vehicle. Of course it is crucial to 2/2 it - if you want to be most effective. How can we possibly argue that it needs to be buffed based on 1/2 performance? That's dumb. Not to mention Maggie main gun performance is still better on a per-pull basis from what I have seen.

Were there some amazing solo Libbers back in the day? Yeah, but that never meant they had grounds to complain that they lost to a 3/3 Lib.

All that means is that even with a higher 2/2 ratio the Magriders would see almost as many 2/2 MBT's from the other faction + extra 1/2 MBT's and/or 2/2 AI MBT's.

You should also have noticed that this self-reporting always went hand-in-hand with "because the Magrider is inferior (which isnt true) and we pull Lightnings instead of Magriders because the Magrider sucks", which also isnt true as there are just as many Magrider pulls per player as other MBT's but the VS do pull slightly more Lightnings per player compared to thenother two factions. Since it was a gambit to prove the Magrider inferior and it was all wrong there is little reason to believe the Magrider actually does get more 2/2 usage.
And again consider this: because the Magrider gets more gunners than there are Magriders the gunseat HAS to be empty somewhere so someone else could jump in. This indicates a very important thing: while Magriders do get more gunners, their gunners also leave and leave an empty seat. So the question becomes: how much time is the seat empty? How can you claim more 2/2 Magriders if there is just as much chance the gunners arent present during the actual combat?

As for NC being incompetent: than their Lightning stats would also be worse. They arent worse. Since skill isnt the factor it leaves equipment. Since the equipment of the VS scores better their equipment has to be better.

Which means Magriders are going to enjoy plenty of 1/2 Vanguards to more easily pick off. That's pretty much the point I was making when considering VKPU and also very likely impacts performance data.

Just because there are unreasonable opinions does not mean they all are nor are they the only ones saying it + it does not mean there are other truths in the people having these opinions and claims.

On this statement in particular:
"And again consider this: because the Magrider gets more gunners than there are Magriders the gunseat HAS to be empty somewhere so someone else could jump in. This indicates a very important thing: while Magriders do get more gunners, their gunners also leave and leave an empty seat."

All it would take is for one of every 11th and 12th tank crew to employ a different top gun. Ockham's razor. What the hecking heck does that last sentence even mean/prove? We're not arguing VS tank crews are conjoined twins, now are we? But sure, a Magrider is 1/2 when it spawns...

And this:
"So the question becomes: how much time is the seat empty? How can you claim more 2/2 Magriders if there is just as much chance the gunners arent present during the actual combat?"

Do answer this yourself first otherwise you're just dropping more "what ifs" or "what about." Should I also answer what class they play? At which time of day? If they've showered? What they like for breakfast? etc.

Just because you draw a conclusion from the behaviours from another vehicle it does not mean it will translate over to another. Plus, I thought it was fairly obvious I responded to the point that VS switch seats as I would have found quite exceptional if VS was the only faction who seat hopped to such an extent.

But like I said, the writing's on the wall and it is fairly evident VS employ their top guns on a fair greater frequency than the other factions. Though that's as far as we can go with absolute certainty.

Well there are more gunners than drivers according to the data. Therefore there must be either dedicated drivers/gunners or drivers with random gunners getting in and out fairly often. The fact that there is a positive difference indicates more users are using more weapons, but we cant really say more than that.

There isn't really any reason to suggest this though. Having a gunner more often does suggest a greater need but as I've said it can also indicate a greater desire. All the data backs up is that more people flow though the gunner slots. The DPS gained through a gunner isn't dramatically higher or lower on average compared to another faction's MBT.

It seems we've come to the age old problem. The writing's on the wall but it's saying two different things. At least we know there are more gunners for the Magrider but can't say much more than that.