Devs: Magrider Issues

For those just joining, all you need to know is that several Magrider drivers are saying the same thing: the Mag needs buffs in order to compete as a MBT when squaring off against the Prowler's dps and speed, or, the Vanguard's extra health and shield.

That can be accomplished by making the Magrider travel the same speed in any direction, as well as making Magburn an Omniburn, so that it can be used in any direction.

Exactly, Magriders are good for tank support (maggie/lightning stack is powerful as it takes much less space horizontally) and excellent for ambushes or pincer maneuvers.

I don't think adding increasing the rotation speed is quite what you want (although it should help some) and I know for certain that adding free magburner in any shape is not the right way to do improve the Magrider (if that happens they'll have to give Vanguards free Forward Shield or something similar), but rather decreasing the threshold required for that maximum turn rate (mostly while not in third person and especially so when zoomed) so that you can "flick" much easier. Magrider's body turn rate is noticeably faster compared to the Vanguard but with slightly slower top speed, which I think should be corrected to have them with the same top speed as getting to a fight a few hexes over with a Vanguard is somewhat painfully slow, and a Magrider is even more so.

Again: increase top speed to Vanguard levels, and decrease threshold for the main gun's maximum turn rate while in first person and even more so while zooming.

I agree, it wouldn't help winning an in-close engagement with another MBT. It would help getting away though. Certainly would help against harassers who can drive in circles around you faster than you can turn. I had another look at the keyboard turn rate compared to using the mouse and it wasn't as good as I thought. You can hit the max turn rate faster, but not by much. I shouldn't have brought it up earlier.

Yep, and I can't blame the NC asking for it either. It's a ham-fisted solution and the devs probably know it. I would suggest that's why it's been sitting on PTS so long.

That used to be a thing many years ago for all tanks. SOE then added turret acceleration delay that made targeting infantry much harder. Now I tend to use use strafe when fine control is needed.

Omniburn would be a recipe for disaster in an enclosed space. I can guarantee you are going to damage yourself more by banging into things than whatever it is you are trying to avoid. Can you imagine the zerg carnage? IMO the partial attempt on PTS doesn't add much value.
The other thing that annoys me is that magburn doesn't work when on fire, i.e. when you need it the most. Imagine the Vanguard shield not working if it caught fire. Yeah right....

IMO magburn could do with a significant boost. Do people realise that it was working for up to 8 seconds at a time during the server lags earlier in the year and regularly works for more than 2 seconds near the end of alerts during prime time now? I've not seen one mention of it's OP'ness. Why? because it makes very little difference either way. Just make it 2 seconds.

Guys go try the Multidirectional exaust on Planetside test server. Magrider with that is a fun rig.
Also there is a new Aphelion successor.
Lets play few battles to test it right.

Test server details: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...st-test-server-policies-download-link.114038/

magrider is already op af, i can't hit it with anything because of the random strafing around. it often makes me not want to play the game.

Frankly, I stopped arguing when I had to explain why water is wet, but after reading reddit I found this guy making the same claims and someone else posting this site showing the contrary.
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,4008&startDate=2019-04-05&endDate=2019-07-05

The VKPH looks staunchly similar, higher ends being explained by the previous poster I mentioned saying that TR and NC fight eachother more often and thus throw more vehicles at eachother.

And then you have a graph like this:
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,4008&startDate=2019-04-05&endDate=2019-07-05

On average magriders get 2-3 more VEHICLE kills than the other MBTs, which is rather large considering that even without the NC's shielding or prowlers DPS they manage to kill more on average than either per unit because of their mobility.
Topguns seem to indicate the same thing:
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,4015&startDate=2019-04-05&endDate=2019-07-05
While the ES topguns are relatively in sync.
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02874&startDate=2019-04-05&endDate=2019-07-05

So, sure, the vanguard can straight turret down a magrider eating all shots, but more often than not, the magrider in question does not do that. So /thread magrider does not have issues, this guy is probably just bad at magging.

And then again you completely ignore that Magriders ALWAYS have to be 2/2 cause elseway they are not better than lightnings. While TR and NC pull their MBTs 1/2 as they are still great that way. 2/2 are expected to make more kills than 1/2s. Indication for that being right? Check which MBT is pulled the least...that's likely the one that always needs 2/2(as you need 2 players and do not always have those they are pulled less). Pure logic.
That however does not mean that the magrider is stronger...it only means that it is crap as 1/2.

It's not the KPU that matters(this would only matter if they would always have the same number of players involved)...it's the total number of kills/kph/uniques(for anything. From vehicle to air) etc. that matters. That shows which one is really doing most damage. Magrider is clearly underperforming there....up to 30% worse than the others. That ain't acceptable and is the reason why VS is pulling more lightnings per player than other factions.

On average magriders get like 1-2 vehicle kills per unit more than the others(and that's just 20% more)...not 2-3. However on 12/22/18 NC AP-lightnings got almost 2 vehicle kills more than VS AP lightnings...which is a 30%+ more. Given that rare spikes like that even happen on equal platforms you should not take a look at those for balance.

Just to repeat: KPU is the best measurement for vehicles that always have the same number of players on them(or have access to the same weapons. As then there should be no difference between the number of used seats. For example there is no reason why VS libs should be 3/3 while NC would prefer 2/3). For those that do have several fighting seats with ES-weapons you need to take kph or total number of kills and then take the total number of players of each faction into account. KPU says NOTHING there. This mostly counts for MBTs...

So what you're saying is that since NC and TR are almost always pulling 1/2 tanks they're at a disadvantage since magriders are always 2/2. That's possibly the most flimsy argument I've ever heard. Firstly, how the **** would you know the state of every single tank in the game? Secondly, if the NC and TR are losing because they keep pulling half tanks, then they shouldn't if they're losing. Until otherwise proven that VS are only using 2/2 tanks and TR/NC are only using 1/2 tanks, you're basically saying that the data is invalid because VS are winning. That's ******** logic.

Firstly, the average stats indicate they are staunchly winning, what exactly proves that uniques are a better standard to hold a faction to over averages across the entire faction?
Secondly, if VS are actually pulling more lightnings than all other factions, do you have proof of that? I have something that would be relevant
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,3105&startDate=2019-04-05&endDate=2019-07-05
If VS are truly pulling more lightnings than all other factions, they should be pulling ahead in lightning kills, but if they're truly worse off, then they should have sigficantly less kills because their MBT is not present and yet here we see all three factions are balanced, on multiple lightning primaries.

Considering I'm doing these over 3 month periods as to avoid outliers, no, I'm going to keep using them.

Considering that VS is generally a lower population, how in what world would kills or kills per hour be a fair measure for them? They are going to clearly net fewer kills because there are fewer players using them, therefore it only makes sense that kph is also botched because they have less capacity to net kills with said weapon based on population, kpu would be the best measurement because it's kills per unit on average over an entire faction. If one faction has more people that bought the AP then the average wouldn't be affected nearly as much because it's based on performance over simply netting kills.

Yeah! And we can prove it too by checking the amount of unique players per day using top-guns!

https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02899&startDate=2019-04-04&endDate=2019-07-04

Oh wait, the one using the most top-guns is... the NC? So the whole "Magrider uses most 2/2 tanks" is a load of bull? Just as much bull in fact as "Magriders suck", "magriders are the weakest", "we pull more Lightnings because Magriders suck" and just about everything ever said about the good ol' Maggie?

Well how about that.

When looking at almost any point in time in terms on uniques for MBT primaries the NC pull double or a lot more than double the MBTs as VS. Even when it is not twice as many uniques it is still extremely obvious the NC pull their MBT for the primary alone on a much greater scale than VS.

Contrast this with the fact that NC top gun usage and you notice a rather massive gap between primaries and top guns. Meanwhile, the VS are not trailing far behind on top gun usage.

So there, we finally have conclusive evidence for VS MBTs being used as 2/2 on a much greater scale than NC/TR.

How about that, eh?

Ok, firstly, that doesn't prove jack. Secondly, what exactly does that prove the magrider being weak?

I go on about how I don't use KPH or Kills for AP because VS have fewer people playing on average, but trying to prove that more magriders are using 2/2 tanks just also proves they'd get less AP kills because their gunners would also dip in and take kills away from it too, meaning the disparity of that specific statistic would simply be proven that they actually do equal out perfectly with vanguards and prowlers. That doesn't change that magriders have a higher VKPU than all the other factions showing how well they survive and still manage to kill other vehicles. Lastly even if they do use more 2/2 tanks, they're winning, what exactly does that contribute?

tl;dr: by going on this tangent that magriders have to use their gunners, you're actually digging a bigger hole for your argument. It's actually making me cringe.

There is no sufficient evidence that the magrider is underperforming by any margin than the ones in which it's supposed to underperform; such as in terms of dps when compared to the prowler and meatyness of the vanguard, everything else it actually competes against if not trounces in terms of kills per hour and kills per unit.

I'm just posting facts and, yes, it proves a Magrider will more (much more) likely will be crewed by two people.

Going by VKPU, for example, the Vanguard is doing and better than the Magrider on both primary and top guns (but VS tend to consistently beat NC with a Halberd)... The top guns are more even though (as a whole). And feel free to cringe away and act defensively, I'll just keep using fancy data and other crazy stuff.

This thread has been quite illuminating as the narrative that the Vanguard is struggling really has been dispelled. The Voidwell has done good work and shown us more recent and relevant data.

Prepare to question your perception of reality! It's time for STATS TIME!

Can confirm, according to http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/vehicles the ratios for the total number of users for each ES MBT* to the faction's total number of of users for all applicable topguns is as follows:

NC -- 15443 total Vanguards : 12536 total filled topguns = 1:0.8118
TR -- 16463 total Prowlers : 10854 total TR filled topguns = 1:0.6593
VS -- 10200 total Magriders : 10927 total filled topguns = 1:1.1071

The VS does pull a noticeably higher percentage of 2/2 MBTs as compared to the TR & VS.

The data suggests there are more filled gunner slots on Magriders than there are Magriders at all. This statistical anomaly is likely due to each tank hosting a number of random gunners rather than a dedicated individual, or perhaps is caused by each tank using a larger variety of topguns than primary cannons. However, because we cannot determine if this is a faction-specific phenomenon or not, we must assume this is likely the case for all three factions.

The data changes considerably when taking the type of weapon into consideration, as the presented argument suggests. The ratios or the total number of users for each ES MBT* to the faction's total number of of users for all applicable ground-based anti-vehicle topguns** is as follows:

NC -- 15443 total Vanguards : total filled anti-vehicle topguns = 1:0.7011
TR -- 16463 total Prowlers : total TR filled anti-vehicle topguns = 1:0.5918
VS -- 10200 total Magriders : total filled anti-vehicle topguns = 1:0.8621

While there is still a higher percentage of 2/2 Magriders with AV secondaries compared to the NC's 2/2 Vanguards, the difference has dropped dramatically. Regardless, one can likely still make the claim that there is a significant difference in the number of 2/2 Mags to Vanguards. (I draw the line at significance testing. T-tests, P-tests, and Z-tests aren't nearly as fun.)

*Totals calculated by adding up all users for all main cannons for each tank.
**For the purposes of this calculation, the applicable AV topguns include the Halberd/SE, Basilisk, Enforcer, Mjolnir, Gatekeeper, Vulcan, Saron, and Aphelion respectively.

Personal thoughts:

I'm honestly a little surprised at the data. I expected the differences to be much more minor, though I did expect the trend.

Shocker, the most maneuverable and dynamic platform which allows for the most interesting, engaging, and easiest infantry farms is also the most popular platform to gun for. Who'd have thought? Likewise the deployed-on-a-hill-too-far-away-to-be-of-use platform which tends to siphon kills through the duel cannon DPS is the least popular platform to gun for by far. Again, big shock that is, /s.

Vanguard is the natural middle-ground, lacking the effectiveness at range or interesting mechanics and situations leaves it the rather simple point-and-click rail-shooter platform for gunning. The Vanguard generally wants to get as close as possible and doesn't have any tricks to make this more fun for the crew. As a result, the gunner will most often be in close to effective range at the very least and that's really it. There are better and worse things to gun for.

Regardless, the way the argument is being presented here is a little flawed. The Magrider more than keeps up with the competition in almost all respects. Many trends are easily explained by differences in populations and the number of respective users as well.

Situations such as this with topguns is being toted as proof of under-performance, despite performing roughly equal to the other two factions especially when accounting for population differences. As I've stated above, while the trend can be confirmed (though actual statistics, thank you very much ) the reasoning cannot.

For example, the NC pull over 953 times as many harassers than Vanguards and their gunners combined. Either the difference in effectiveness is absurd or one is more fun to gun for than the other. Or both.

If there are more gunners than Magrider pulls, then the amount of 2/2 Magriders can easily be inflated. For example a Magrider might enter an area where the Gunner isnt comfortable or thinks he could get more kills on foot, and later someone else jumps into the gunner seat. This switching of seats inflates the amount of gunners available while in reality the Magrider's actual time being 2/2 in general vehicle vs vehicle combat is equal.

We'd have to compare to something like amount of vehicles pulled vs the amount destroyed based on total users of a primary/secondary and the amount of vehicle kills they got to gauge an average usage per pulled vehicle and throgh that get a glimpse on how many vehicles are on average 2/2 when in combat with each other.

If there was one point I wanted to make it was that Magriders have been pulled/used as 2/2. It was nice to see confirmation of this, and it is not so strange when pre-CAI the primary gun had the worst DPS of them all and the secondary gun was supposed to make up for it.

Since even Magriders with the pre-nerf PPA often used the AP version and the tank meta have favoured a particular I am not surprised to see less variation of primaries (as the same primary gets used more than the changes in top guns). For example, the halberd is a very popular choice among VS.

The issue with the Dasanfall though is that it doesn't account for trends it would seem and it likely behaviours have changed since the CAI update. Checking on Voidwell, for more recent data, we can clearly see a great deal many more Vanguard primary uniques while the top gun uniques are not dissimilar to VS who in turn pull significantly less primary uniques.

Performance must, of course, be taken into account BUT if Magriders are much more likely to be running with a 2/2 AV geared crew we must also challenge the perceived power of the Magrider. I mean, going head to head against a full tank crew in what will often be a 1/2 MBT will also skew the data through 1) there will be a lot more Vanguards 2) they will be half-crew.

Edit: Bloody hell this would have been so much easier if MBTs were single crew vehicles. :<

You mean data like that; in which VKPU points out that magriders are soundly beating out everyone else with AP and halberds? Are you delusional?

In what ******* world? If anything the data suggests that vanguards rely half as much as their topgun as their main cannon and still net less value.
But what I'm questioning more is that you're claiming to look at this data and yet you completely ignore it.

You guys arent considering the, unfortunately, not measurable factor, of human choice here, as well. You cant account for how many of those 2/2 magrider pulls are 2/2 simply because the magrider is a significantly more fun to gun platform, where performance is not the causation.

To be honest, im not sure where people are coming from claiming the magrider needs anything, it is over performing in both KPU and VKPU according to Voidwell stats. By a significant margin, and this is by counting strictly the MBT's primary gun, not the top gun. Implying that this data is only because of the hypothetical "Vanu have more gunners inflating this number" makes no sense, as the gunner would inevitably steal a large chunk of those kills, deflating the number, yet its still on top for primary gun KPU and VKPU, given this fact, the magrider is probably over performing even more than the data we do have suggests if its pulling these numbers AND top gunned more often, artificially deflating its KPU and VKPU.

As anecdotal as this may be, in actual practical application, most people agree the magrider is by far the easiest platform to direct hit infantry with due to the ability to strafe yourself on target, a deployed prowler not withstanding. So whenever the discussion of magrider performance is considered in regards to tank vs tank, you need to also consider how massively better it is at infantry farming than its counterparts, you cannot ask for a buff to its tank vs tank capabilities while also remaining top dog on infantry farm, asymmetry is not necessarily a problem, in fact, its a large portion of the games entire draw, even if the magrider was under performing vs tanks (which it isnt) the infantry farming makes up for that fact enough to not warrant any changes.

Mags are trash .. nuff said ..

I'm not sure the data is any different, or at least not significantly. The number of total users for each tank based on the primary cannons actually dropped, as compared to the previous stats listed on page 4. This obviously indicates something has changed somewhere. I think the data has likely been updated at some point, unless literally thousands of characters have been removed from Dasanfall's data. The most likely explanation in my mind is that the data isn't actually all-time.

Also the Vanguards pull a considerably larger number of Halberds.

I don't think this is very fair to say. As the ratios show, Vanguards are still sporting manned AV secondaries roughly 70% of the time compared to about 86% of Magriders. In the majority of cases it's likely to be a 2/2 verses a 2/2, and though there are definitely more Vanguards out in the wild, they aren't necessarily fighting other MBTs. It's possible but unlikely.

Also global conditions do not always translate to local conditions either.

Yes. The extra weapon slot really adds a lot of complexity to them and it's quite difficult to account for. :/