Devs: Magrider Issues

The amount of MBTs pulled by;
TR: 16400 - Primary to top gun ratio; 0.65
NC: 15400 - Primary to top gun ratio; 0.81 (as previously noted, 70% is AV)
VS: 10200 - Primary to top gun ratio; 1:1 (as previously noted, 86% is AV)

When you take these numbers and look at VKPU for the VS it almost perfectly align with the ratio of top guns (or lack thereof) with the other factions, i.e. roughly 20-25% better VKPU on its primaries. The VKPU we do not see that much difference (though as in other discussions it is notable that VS consistently perform better than both other factions with the Halberd, the NS variant shared across all factions).

Why is 20-25% difference not a huge red flag? Because in accordance with these numbers there are A LOT of 1/2 MBTs rolling around on TR/NC whereas this is not the case of VS. This alone wouldn't be enough though since as previously mentioned, VS could just be seat swapping which would inflate uniques for top guns...

However, when you look at the top guns you notice VS are doing well here too. So now we have a large amount of top guns who is often used and used well. It just doesn't track with the argument that VS is seat swapping because why the heck aren't they doing in every other vehicle? Certainly doesn't account for all them uniques.

So yeah, just seems you gotta jump through a lot of hoops to avoid admitting that VS do crew their MBTs fully more than the other factions.

I'm not in the trashrider camp though but I'm not in the swagrider camp (despite the name ) either.

I would also allude to a different discussion here (which were held with similar people) concerning the NC MAX which had clear performance advantages over the other factions. In that discussion the argument was frequently made that NC MAX only do well because of sticking to situations where it works well. There was no data for this, yet you wanted people to accept it. You wanted us to accept a player behaviour (a learned and specialised behaviour). In this discussion, however, it seems that same line of reasoning which VS players do fall on deaf ears despite much much more robust data. Instead of going, "yeah, I guess it kinda makes sense that VS players like their top guns more", we see more and more convoluted reasoning and some of which accidentally making both TR/NC look incompetent just to avoid the notion that VS do crew their MBT fully more often.

But I see we're entering into personal attack/ego defence mode. Least this thread made progress in how we think about MBTs even we don't have a clear picture yet.

I dont think anyone did deny the magriders have more top gunners, at least not that i saw, we can see in the data that they do.

The problem i have with that assertion is the assumption that this means the magrider needs them to perform, having a top gunner does not inflate KPU and VKPU, it deflates it, because the gunner steals kills off of the driver. So with a more deflated KPU and VKPU than the other 2 MBTs, to STILL have the highest KPU and VKPU means the magrider is performing BETTER than the other MBTs, even without the extra gunner.

I see what you mean and you are correct in that might deflate but NC pull 5000 more MBTs and TR 6400 more MBTs.

Both of these factions are more likely to be 1/2 crews (especially TR) and NC (with already a lesser ratio of top gunners) also pull slightly less AV top gunners. If you look at all this, this could very well account for the differences. On your last point, the primary weapons might actually perform so well because of the top gunner and vice versa.

I definitely do not buy into the "trashrider" side though. It would actually be pretty cool to see the devs being more transparent with their data like they used to be (Higby shared assorted data and stats which we couldn't get from dasanfall and the like) as I am pretty sure they could just state how, what, and when each MBT works versus not works. Same can be said for the NC MAX threads. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for them to share at what ranges and situations the NC MAX performs... But I guess threads like these and on reddit keeps up the engagement and buzz.

So if there's any dev around, more transparency pretty please. <3

Im not quite following how NC and TR pulling less 2/2's would account for the differences? maybe im misunderstanding what youre saying but that seems like another thing that would deflate magrider KPU specifically, because the tanks they kill are more likely to net them 1 kill rather than 2, being that theyre more often 1/2's.

The MAX subject I wont touch with a 10 foot pole unless its in a dedicated thread, there is just too much to crack into there, I do share in your sentiment about transparency though, I remember the days when Higby would play with my outfit from time to time and talk to us about development and seemed to always have an open ear to ideas and suggestions, that man definitely seemed to truly care about the community.

VKPU counts vehicle kills, not individual players.

Short version, VS has 5000-6000 (nearly 12000 more but divided by two since each faction has two fronts) more MBTs to fire at than the other factions. At the same time the ratio of which NC/TR use top guns are 1:0.81 and 1:0.65 respectively, whereas the VS ration is 1:1.1. Within these numbers VS use AV top guns 86% of the time (so that's a lot of AV Maggies out there).

From the other side, you have a lot more MBTs on NC/TR yet VS offer you far less targets and at the same time these targets are more likely to have an AV top gunner as well (so fewer tougher targets). VS, however, will face quite a lot more 1/2 enemy MBTs (especially when facing TR) and on top of that the 2/2 MBTs the do face are not as likely to use an AV top gun.

We could easily see the same numbers of MBTs for VS as the other factions but the VS' habits when using their MBT show they much rather ride in a fully crewed Magriders over pulling another.

Looking at AI stuff though I think it is safe to say the VS HESH primary is a bit too strong given the other properties of their MBT (movement and mobility) whereas the NC HESH variant needs a boost. TR, as usual when it comes to MBT primaries, are in a very good spot. On AI top guns there's not much to comment on as nothing stands out.

I'm pretty sure if they released all the data there would not be much of a change. People will still claim X is UP, Y is OP. I have yet to see someone say "Huh, you know, the statistics totally changed my point of view, Demigan was right!"

These words have been said, you cannot take them back. My soul is finally released from this realm, farewell.

No doubt we'll be having discussions till the end of the game's life. The transparency I'm asking for is data like they shared in the past like, "Over 70% of all infantry combat takes place within 30 meters", since this helps us understand/contextualise the data we have access to through the API on dasanfall/Voidwell/etc. If we then happen to disagree on what follows, fine, I rather have more rather than less.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have those stats.

Heaven didn't want me and Hell thought me too cruel for their patrons so I'm back!

I've asked long ago for the ranged statistics of weapons to be visible too on sites like Fisu or Dasanfall. Having a bell-curve that shows the ranges at which weapons A: score hits and B: score kills (preferably in the same graph!) would be a wonderful tool to see how effective weapons are and what ranges they are good at.

Edit: In fact I would make this visible in-game when you are about to buy the weapon, so that players get an even better idea what they are getting! That ranged weapon might actually be for a shorter range than they expect it to work for! /edit

Imagine a shotgun bell-curve. It would actually be half a bell-curve starting at 0m, staying about level up to 7 or 8m and then dropping down heavily as the amount of kills drop steeply due to the COF, pellet spread and damage degradation.

Imagine a mid-range weapon, it should show a relatively low amount CQC hits and kills and ramp up around mid-range and then drop down again. But if we see it performing well in CQC for example because it's easy to chain headshots in CQC and win a fight anyway then we need to adapt the weapon so that it's more balanced, unless ofcourse it's a jack-of-all-trades weapon meant for a large amount of ranges, but then it the bell-curve should also have a lower peak than more specialized weapons.

Or better yet, imagine tank guns. It's often proclaimed that the Vanguard is the CQC brawler while the Magrider and Prowler are long-range combat vehicles. I think that it would be a rude awakening if we could actually see the hits and kills on a bell-curve.

This would be outright fantastic if it was created to work via a companion phone app (think WoW armory) in addition to a web source. I'm not sure that logistically it would work out in the game client itself.

But there's basically NO reason that this stuff can't be available to use in the kind of setting I mentioned. +1

What a pity !
Now seriously: I've seen all the stats pages in this thread and I do not consider PS2 statistics as a way to prove something. Below I'll explain my opinion.
Lets take Magrider because it's my favorite vehicle and I play PS2 since the very beginning.
In general I kill 2...5 vehicles and some infantry per one spawn. And it's possible that my K/D and vehicle K/D ratios are good. But I know the Magrider's weakness and in 1/2 config I use it mostly as a supporting or hit-and-run unit. For example I kill sundys/single lightnings/ants, I farm enemy infantry while we zerg and I avoid 1v1 batlles with Vanguards and Prowlers. I also flee in panic (not literally, but I retreat immediately) when I see or hear Vulcan Harasser and no friendlies nearby.
If I have a second gunner or if I have a competent second gunner with Aphelion/Saron I can play more aggresive style and ambush (or blitz attack) other MBTs. Why ambush/blitz ? Otherwise any Vanguard/Prowler pilot with the same skills as mine highly possible will tear my Magrider to trash making it trashrider. Of course if enemy pilot is unskilled/unlucky and misses few shots my chances to win are greatly growing.
In both win scenarios written above my stats are not bad, and one looking at statistics can think that Magrider is a real "swagrider".

But this thread is not about statistics. This thread is about Magrider -vs- other MBTs. Read the first sentence of the first post

But now 1/2 Magrider in most cases can not compete other 1/2 MBTs if the skills of the pilots are equal. That what this thread is about.

That is why reference to statistics how Magrider performs in general are not relevant. The correct comparison is the fight of the same skill players piloting different MBTs. But this is ideal and I doubt It can be done by random players. Possibly It can be done on PTS or VR Koltyr by friends or squad mates. If someone interested, lets try some 1v1 battles with MBTs changes.

P.S. If I need to hunt MBTs I'll probably take stealth maxed-out Lightning with AP or Viper. They are good at killing single Vanguards or Prowlers.

The magrider is not the most beginner friendly but It with out a doubt has the highest skill ceiling of the 3 tanks. While it may not have a 'I-Win-Button' like the other two tanks players take its maneuverability for granted. A dedicated magrider driver can absolutely surpass his counterparts because of it, the restrictions of tank treds becomes really telling when you meet one of those annoying ****ers who knows what he's doing.

Isn't the higher skill cap not worth much? That when mastered gives a distinct advantage over equally skilled players? That's the type of weapon players have been clambering for more of in this game. I would love to see VKPU against only players above a certain BR, I believe the Tr/Nc may get the chaff but the Vs are great against the veterans.

Nope, it's not worth much in direct MBT vs MBT combat. If you don't ambush with a Magrider and don't get your first shot in the rear of the enemy MBT and you and your gunner don't hit every single following shot, you are dead. Especially against Vanguards with their shield. The problem is, that it's more often than not just not possible to ambush, because of the terrain and because a lone AV Magrider is free certs for enemy air. Going toe to toe is a 100% death sentence, given equally skilled players. When i'm in my Magrider i always avoid going toe to toe with enemy MBT's, because it's just meaningless.

This is bias speaking. Like the people who proclaim the NC shotguns are superior to those of the TR and VS because... Bias.

I've played PS2 from the beginning too. I also know the weaknesses of the Prowler, the Magrider, the Vanguard, the Lightning. I can try to avoid their weaknesses and play to their strengths... Does that mean anything?
How do you gauge if an enemy is "equally skilled"? How do you see that when you engage them? Is your bias truly so big that every time you lose your enemy had at least equal skill? Just because you lose does not mean your vehicle sucks and the enemy was equally skilled.

You've also missed providing an explanation as to why PS2 statistics don't matter. Unless you expect "because I play Magrider and I avoid MBT vs MBT combat" to be a viable explanation? I could also proclaim that I avoid MBT vs MBT combat in the Vanguard because it has no maneuverability and can only fight in a static battlefield with only a few very easily overseen approaches, and even then might get it's **** kicked because the Prowler can add more DPS and the Magrider can avoid shots and can field more MBT's per piece of cover meaning more DPS with equal amount of MBT's fielded for the VS.

Also have you considered that due to population differences the VS has a chronic lack of MBT's to field? The VS pulls just as many MBT's per player as the other factions, but has less population. So the VS Magriders are always outpopped by the enemy MBT's... And yet they score better than the other two factions. Not only do they beat the unequal pop, they outperform despite it! It's like having a MAX that can win a 2v3 fight by killing the 3 MAX's first while losing only 1. You would expect that to be called OP... Yet when it concerns the Magrider suddenly it's not OP.

And yet this is a thread about statistics, more specifically the statistics of Magriders Versus other MBT's. And as I've calculated before: The Magrider is at the very least equal to the Vanguard in that regard. Yet the Magrider not only scores equal to the Vanguard, it does so while being outnumbered and also scoring better against other vehicular targets than the Vanguard.

Actually if you read the OP you can see it's about bias. It has such gems such as "other MBT's will drive under the Magrider", which is in effect an advantage the Magrider can exploit rather than a disadvantage. This has been proven by simple thought (it takes less than half a second to get off and you can easily get off behind your opponent) and by a video that did exactly that and used it to finish off what would have been failures if the Magrider hadn't done that (it did so while fighting multiple opponents!).

Completely irrelevant. "equal" combat is likely the worst way to evaluate this. You can't find people equal enough to pilot both MBT's and it does not include all the intricacies of the open combat PS2 offers.
What you want is to see how the average player can operate the vehicles. From the worst player to the most elite who can only be removed from his tank seat with a crowbar or an AP shell bouncing around inside, whichever comes first. You want to add in every capability and usage of the vehicles, from how well or bad they can climb slopes, drive and fire at the same time, reload times, shell arc, ability to strafe or not, speed, turn velocity, DPS, shots per magazine, abilities, opposing vehicle options like Harassers with an OP topgun or not and Sunderers or Flashes etc. Everything has to be added to the pile of what these MBT's can do so you get a proper idea of what the vehicle actually does in the PS2 world.
In other words you want to know how they perform. Not over 2 or 3 mock 1v1 battles in some random area where both teams get the word "go" and they probably have to charge each other head-on. But over a thousand battles, a hundredthousand battles. Battles where the fight is more or less equal, battles where one team is outnumbered, battles where infantry support is available, battles where both teams have repair Sunderers or engineers and players have to select which they prefer to take out first, battles with air support sucking away valuable firepower and manpower from the opposition...
Or in short, the performance each tank gets overall. The performance statistics. These are everything. These can be used to gauge properly how well or how bad a vehicle is. And everything says that the Magrider is performing above par. It's outnumbered and still manages to get much more enemy vehicle kills than the other MBT's, even though with other vehicles like the much more often pulled Lightning the VS does not perform any better or worse. So there can be only one conclusion: The Magrider is an incredibly good tank.
And if you need your hand held despite that, that is on you rather than the Magrider.

Oh **** off. If I need to hunt anything as well I'll take a Lightning rather than a Vanguard. It's small, it's fast, it's got impressive damage, it's got maneuverability, it's easy to use (especially the AP variant's got barely any drop). Compare that to the "I hope my enemy is a dummy and just tries a slugmatch with me" Vanguard and there is no contest in which vehicle you would pick. All factions pull more Lightnings than MBT's per player. This is nothing new. Just a few days ago I teamed up with some rando who seemed to know what he was doing in his Lightning and we absolutely murdered several 2/2 Magriders, half a dozen Harassers, Starfall Flashes, Sunderers and half a dozen enemy Lightnings as well. Wait, half a dozen Lightnings? NC Lightning OP I tells ya! What was it again? Oh yeah this good excuse: "I know the weaknesses of the Lightning and I just use it in a hit&run config". And that's true! Because hit&run is possible with the Lightning and extremely potent against anything including MBT's, in fact it's mostly required because the Lightning hasn't got enough DPS to offset it's lacking armor and health. But it does not really make a statement about how good the vehicle is compared to the other MBT's... Unless we have it's actual statistics (which I can't access well right now as Voidwell seems out).

Demigan is right ^^ And if you use the terrain to your advantage with the Magi its more than possible to go toe to toe with the other MBTs ^^ I still dont get why so much people think, that the Magrider is UP.

I dont get what it is with you people, you keep crying about how the magrider cant go toe to toe with a vanguard, its not supposed to!

It doesnt take a genius to figure out that the magrider is designed to be played like a guerilla fighter, using its superior mobility to always have the advantageous position and never have to engage unless its on the magrider pilots terms.

The magrider as it is now is already solidly positioned as the best MBT in the game, thats a statistical fact, in what universe do you live where having all that AND being able to brawl with the MBT designed for brawling would be even remotely close to balanced.

Really what this data is showing us is that having superior mobility, and the most stable platform for getting the easiest shots on target is far more effective in real world application than 1000 extra hp and a short duration damage reduction, both of which more often than not just serve to prolong the inevitable, while all other factors on the "brawling" tank are worst in class.

This actually has been rather enlightening for me, I never thought to look into it until this thread, but what you started as a "magrider UP and needs buffs" thread, has come full circle to a "vanguard UP and needs buffs" thread, and a "magrider OP and needs nerfs" thread. Backfired quite badly on you purple guys huh.

You know, the thing is just, that the Magrider is still labeled as a MAIN BATTLE TANK. And that's exactly what irritates especially new people. People think because it's a labeled MBT and not a labeled guerilla fighter, that they can go toe to toe with other MBT's. That's a really big part of the problem. New people get wrecked and wrecked and wrecked..., till they don't want to play with this thing anymore. The learning curve is, compared to the other MBT's, quite extreme. Finding players, who mastered magriding, is not that easy.

Meet every single other part of the game. I mean, infantry perfected is hard and requires other coordinated people, same with aircraft.

Mainbattletank hardly describes any of the MBTs we have now tbh. There's always a weakness, whether it's infantry, air or even opposing armor, harassers that they can't land shots on in the distance, requires other people to work with as well, the magrider in non-optimal circumstances actually works the best because it can take advantage of uncoordinated people, can mobility out of danger easily if the driver is cunning and can flank the best, taking advantage of weakpoints.

Vanguards, prowlers, they have meat and dps but that's not what makes an MBT an MBT traditionally.

Yeah! Learning to hold A and D to strafe is mightily hard! Realizing that this is the only tank that can fire fairly stable shots while on the move has a skill ceiling so high you cant even see it if you look up (although mostly because you are lying prone on the floor and the ceiling prevents the movement of your head)! Learning that "sit behind cover, pop out for a few shots and return" trick that the Magrider is the best in is difficult even though the greenest newb does this pulling his first vehicle! Coming to the conclusion that a more maneuverable, more stable tank should not win a static slugmatch against a less maneuverable tank with more health or more DPS is sooooo hard to do!

Seriously the Magrider is the easiest vehicle to pick up in the game. Its controls are much closer to that of infantry and you never have to keep an eye on where your chassis is pointing in comparison to your viewpoint. If you look around you'll find even newb Vanguard users will try a little maneuvering to get ahead because a straight slugmatch is never ever a good idea no matter which tank you use.

And we can see this. The Magrider is almost chronically outnumbered (due to amount of population, not average pulls per population) and still manages to score more with a wider variety of gunners in their seat than other MBT's, on top of that the VS do not display any more superior skills in the Lightning (in fact although the difference is overall small the VS seem to be on the weak side with those most of the time). So the only conclusion we can draw is that the Swagrider is awesomeness incarnate. And the only "problem" is that people expect to win a straight slugmatch for no reason at all.