Are the VS getting screwed with this Anniversary Pack?

I addressed it earlier. They're different weapons that fulfill different roles. You can't compare them based on KPU/KPH.

I can and will compare them based on KPU/KPH, Just like every single other thing in this game that people compare it to when they want to show if something is too weak. You are trying to say its different, But the only thing, Literally the ONLY thing that the lasher has over any other gun is that its shots deal 25 damage at 3m. Sorry, But thats not enough to say you can't use KPU/KPH to prove its under powered. How about you find a new argument? The one you are using is dead.

Camera Rocket, Chain Gun, Jackhammer, Rail Jack, Phaseshift, TRAP, Lancer, Striker... All of these are functionally unique weapons.

I just bought it, it costs money to keep this game alive; servers, staff, taxes, miscellaneous, etc
You gonna ***** then don't buy it, quite simple aint it? I have always known that the one thing that will actually kill this game for good are the cheap bastards playing it, too many of 'em from I can gather on the forums.

p.s: NO infantry weapon on this game makes me run for cover like the lasher does...

Lashers are amazing when you want to hold a room. Half a squad of Lasher can essentially close a door, anything trying to walk through, or even stand outside, will die, whether single file, or all at once. Toss enough Lashers in the SCU Shield Generator room, and there is literally nothing the enemy can do to stop the attackers.
Where the Lasher excels is on the attack in multi-platoon battles, where it can be fired indiscriminately in the direction of the enemy, preferably from high ground. An entrenched enemy with good cover is a sitting duck for a Lasher, either killing them, or forcing them out into the line of fire of conventional weapons.

Also, not that relevant, but as far as I'm aware, the Lasher actually has the best TTK of any automatic weapon against MAX suits.

Auto-shotty would leave it in the dust, assuming ext. mags.

Forgot about those. Let's just go with the term "LMGesque". And not a word about Auto-shotties with Slugs.

The only downside is that half a squad of anything can close off a door too..

after seeing the heroic boost for 6 mos....um yeah its worth it. I take back what I said earlier.

Half a squad of lashers to shut down a single door. You hit the nail on the head with that one. But hey, Half a squad of ANY WEAPON shooting through a SINGLE DOOR will shut it down as well, Even more effectively.

And to your max comment? Great! If that max is running flak like pretty much every max does, It drops down to pretty much the worse. To quote a dev post from long ago "Only 4% of the playerbase at any given time uses maxes" (Might be slightly off, But the math is not, This was a question asked why the maxes don't get player studio items)

Last I checked, "Anything" didn't have splash damage, and the ability to fire for thirty seconds straight without reloading. "Anything" can make a door difficult, painful, or costly to get through. A Lasher can keep a door closed, period.

No, It really can't. Any player that knows about the explosive damage will rush it and kill the user. Its happened to me plenty of times. What happens when they do this? If the attacking player is equal or better than your skill level, You will die every single time, No matter what weapon they are using. Literally every primary in this game in a head to head fight will beat the lasher head to head. This is why its under performing the way it is. It needs to be buffed in one of the areas. Be it damage wise, velocity, Or heat mechanic. I personally recommend it simply be buffed to 300 m/s velocity to be on par with the PPA. Nothing else would have to change.

I'm sick of the suppression argument I hear when the topic of the Lasher is pulled up. ANYONE can suppress EVERYTHING with ANYTHING they have at their disposal. The MCG is great at this, and the Jackhammer's triple-burst is incredibly recognizable and sure to keep enemies at bay. The Lasher is TOO LIMITED. What's the point of a plasma launching weapon if all the projectiles do is give you a feeling that your clothes are getting warmer? As it stands, the Lasher just doesn't cut it. It performs the worst out of the ESHAWs, so just as the MCG got a rebalance, the Lasher deserves the same. The Jackhammer could use a change too so that evereyone gets a better toy.

The can't do it remotely as effectively or against as high a number as Lasher can (well Pounders with Engis and a medic probably can, but nothing else).

The Lasher is definately a "niche" weapon (although not remotely as niche as many in this thread are trying to claim), but equally it is very effective within that niche.

1 single user, perhaps, 2-3 users not so much.

It would seem like you are using it incorrectly or just plain expecting too much out of it.

The Lasher isn't a great 1 on 1 weapon (I don't think anyone would claim it is), but used in numbers (and massive numbers aren't needed) it works very effectively - the PS1 Lasher was very similar in this regard in that the more used together it became much more powerful than the sum of its parts.

It is the only infantry weapon (barring the Pounder) that works in a manner similar to how the Thumper used to work in PS1.

How would you buff it though?

Anything you might do to buff the Lasher 1 on 1 would require a balancing nerf to its suppressive abilities - otherwise you'd just end up with a be all and do all weapon......... and that was what the Lasher 2.0 was in PS1 for a short while and it nearly destroyed the entire game (it turned all servers totally purple all the time).

You buff the velocity, and as well as buffing 1 on 1 killpower significantly you've just massively buffed its already good suppressive ability.
You buff its direct DPS and you've just taken away most of its 1 on 1 downside and loads would then carry them and the suppressive ability would end up needing to be nerfed as the servers turned purple and discoballs flew literally everywhere.

It would be like asking for the PS1 Thumper to be a great suppressive weapon AND a great 1 on 1 weapon - it would be hideously imbalanced.

We could do it two ways: We can buff the suppression aspect so that it becomes a legitimate suppression tool, or we could buff 1v1-related stats to enhance direct combat situations. Pick one or the other, and whichever you pick will see the other nerfed. Say, I chose the suppression buff. Lasher's splash damage is now at 125 at 5 meters, but velocity decreases considerably. If I chose the 1v1 buff, the Lasher could turn into a single beam (like it was in Beta) with incredible power but with severely limited range. It's an alien plasma weapon, man; so much can be done about it!

Sort of ironic that people start frothing at the mouth when discussions about the VS being OP come around, and stats get thrown in our faces like Oracle stats come from the mouth of Gaben himself, but as soon as we bring up stats to show that the Lasher is under-performing the stats don't matter.

Ah, classic Forumside.

As I mentioned earlier, the Phoenix has far inferior KPU & KPH to the Decimator.
http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=kph&weapon1=33002&weapon2=300103&weapon3=300103
Clearly, this shows that it's too weak.
#MassiveBuffForPhoenix

Ravens have worst KPU & KPH of the AV Max weapons.
http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=kph&weapon1=16028&weapon2=15013&weapon3=17013
#BuffRavens

Scatmaxes have the worst KPU & KPH of the AI Max weapons
http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=kph&weapon1=16000&weapon2=7513&weapon3=17000
#BuffScatmaxes

C4 has the worst KPH of the infantry explosives
http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=kph&weapon1=300013&weapon2=300003&weapon3=429
#BuffC4

It is not really "underperforming" though, or if it is then the MCG is too.

So does the MCG need a "buff"? Does the Chaos, Phobos and Demios need a "nerf"?

Again you cannot directly compare the JH to the Lasher in aKPH or aKPU because there are so different, if it was possible to put a numerical value on suppression, would the JH then need a "buff" because it was lower?

It already IS a legitimate suppression tool.

One Lasher cannot stop a Zerg coming through a door, but a few Lashers already can - how much MORE powerful do you think it should be? What should 1 solo Lasher user be able to suppress? 1 person? 2 people? A squad of people? A platoon of people?

You'll never get them to buff the Lasher more as a suppresion tool IMO, for the very same reason MAX grenade launchers never made it into game (and indeed why they chose not to bring the Thumper from PS1) and the UBGL was so seriously nerfed - because they've made a clear decision with PS2 shorter TTK not to bring PS1-style AOE suppression into PS2.



They could certainly buff it in a 1 on 1 sense (and turn it basically into just another LMG or as you say some short of beam shotgun), but then they'd have to nerf its current suppression ability.

Balance is balance, and you cannot have a good/great suppressive weapon that performs equally as well 1 on 1 - or you can but then you end up with the PS1 Lasher 2.0 and the servers burn (or disco).

The Pheonix needs to be compared with a faction equivalent. Not that it really matters, If I wanted to do what you were doing and be ridiculous about it, I would have compared it with something that every faction can and does use as their primary weapon, sorta like you did. I would have even gone so far as quoting stats in an area its not even meant to be used in, Such as vehicles KPH, Just like you did. How desperate are you getting?

As for the rest? That works for me, Go make your own thread and get to work. You have already lost the argument on the lasher, Any further posts are only here to keep the thread going.

http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=vKPU&weapon1=16029&weapon2=16031&weapon3=17001

huehuehue get more desperate.

Its not needing anything to be done in its suppression abilities. It needs to be able to hold its own against at least SOME of the other primary weapons. Right now, If you take ANY WEAPON on in a head to head fight with the lasher, You will lose 100% of the time if the opponent is equal or more to your skill level. This is not the case with the Jackhammer or the Chaingun. When it comes to their "roles", They surpass pretty much every gun they come against.

Anyone can fire a gun through a door and door suppression. The Explosive damage is a minor thing that doesn't even help the lasher against opponents who aren't ignorant.

Where do the rules say a weapon can't be 1 to 1 with its faction equivilents and still be a suppression weapon? If its 1 to 1, Its not OP in the slightest. Its simply the same as the others with an added benefit of "Suppression" that can only be used if you have a door, The high ground, And ignorant enemies.