Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

DominoDev wrote:

I really really hope that this still stands, despite all the tantrums thrown by some people who seem to conviniently have missed that the OP also clearly states that they have TWO lvl 80 adventurers, and so is obviously not on some sort of crusade against adventurers.

I did the factions with my carpenter - mainly because at first, the carpenter books didn't drop. I went very slowly, harvesting all my resources myself, which took some time on a lvl 30 adventurer. Despite this, and despite seeing links to the advanced furniture (no carpenter books on broker) AND provisioners making and selling the first batch of provisioner Kunark items... I still (as a craftsman) got server disco on a large number of items from the Kunark tradeskill writs.
(if someone has missed it, carpenters and provisioners get the same writs in Kunark, as craftsmen rather than their specific class)

I don't want this opportunity taken away from me in the future with any of my low adventure crafters, but if the vast majority of crafters buy these recipes with adventurer-gained faction, I can't see how SOE will want to justify spending any dev-time on creating writs or even alternative/additional crafting quests for crafters. Especially since they take over the board foaming at the mouth at the thought of doing any crafting for their recipes.

It makes me sad, and I hope it won't mean that my low level adventure crafters will be excluded in the future because so few of us actually seem to use the crafter content.

Any encouragement to actually craft for your crafting rewards would be welcome IMO, including separate factions if it has to come to that. I think the idea with having no-trade crafting recipes is that the character itself earns it, not that its given it by one main who supply a stable of alts. I think its a natural step to say that you also have to earn it with crafting or crafter-quests (no-killing, I wouldnt say no-adventure though ) Someone suggested for instance that crafting for one sphere would gain you a small amount of faction with the other one. Sounds like a fair compromise, for instance.

As for additional quests to break up the writ-grind... I have actually done some other quests on my lvl 30, for Teren's Grasp and Danak. Quickly they turned into kill-quests though, so I can't follow the questline further, but perhaps there are other existing quests that could be made available to crafters, rather than create them from scratch? Just a thought
I would hate to think that this squabbly thread would result in resources and time being taken away from more general crafting issues - including scheming for the next expansion, I'm sure.


(MajDul vs Kunark btw:
1. MajDul did not have recipes only available through the courts, they were also available same as all other advanced crafting books after lvl 9, from tradeable drops. "tradeable" being the operative word there. Don't make this about crafters vs adventurers, Kunark is about certain recipes only available as no-trade items from a faction merchant.

2. MajDul faction was and is available to everyone no matter what adventure level, and certainly very easily if you have one or more high level adventurers already, because of the tradeable tokens. I would be very happy if an alternative was added, but really, that is a completely different discussion for another thread. Fact: As a low level crafter AND adventurer, MajDul court faction IS obtainable.

3. The courts quests and faction was absolutely not the main (and many say only when talking about Kunark) way to level your adventure level, leaving you with "free" faction to purchase crafting rewards.)


If anyone feels that they are being "punished" by having to craft having reach lvl 80 as a crafter, then perhaps they simply should't craft?
I'd be grateful for any further faction-amount being added to the writs btw, but considering if the number 276 writs is accurate for three factions, in the original version that would have meant 828 writs with 250 faction each. That's how I see it anyway. I truly feel for the people who did it those first few days.

Whether people like it or not, a lot about being a crafter is about making the end product and either supplying alts, guildies or friends, or on the open market. The route to getting those interesting recipes should be fair for all crafters so that at least in that aspect the playing field is even.

Quote:
"I don't want this opportunity taken away from me in the future with any of my low adventure crafters, but if the vast majority of crafters buy these recipes with adventurer-gained faction, I can't see how SOE will want to justify spending any dev-time on creating writs or even alternative/additional crafting quests for crafters. Especially since they take over the board foaming at the mouth at the thought of doing any crafting for their recipes."
What does the highlighted part add to this discussion except yet another unfounded insult? Please, enlighten me. Have you seen my completed quests log, do you have a clue what path or paths I took, do you know if I did writs or not, finished the crafting epic, did all the crafting quests I could, in spite of not HAVING to? Do you know that I was disappointed when crafting faction capped at 30K?
That possibly as a multi dimensional character I truly enjoyed the mix of doing both, that both types of faction purchases were gained doing both crafting and adventuring? That I enjoy both sides of my character and loved the choice of doing the tasks I most felt like doing at the time? That possibly I may not want to have that choice forcibly ripped from me?
For the first time in this game I was able to gain general faction using BOTH aspects of my character, and I loved it.
Do you stop to think that possibly I am driven by the same motives to craft as you, that I enjoy it as much as I do adventuring? That I have leveled both because I like both? I leveled to 80 as a woodworker one day before I leveled to 80 as an assassin. I pursued both paths all through Kunark.
No. Because I liked the way Kunark faction was done, I am "foaming at the mouth at the thought of doing any crafting for my recipes".
And you wonder why people get hot. Think about it.

• <Character> I have completed your task, the enemy lies dead.
• <Adventure Faction> Thank you and welcome to allied status.
• <Character> /runs to crafting center
• <Character> /Hail
• <Craft Faction> Who is interrupting my work?
• <Character> I would like to learn the secrets of crafting your bow. Perhaps you have heard of me, I am an ally of you nation!
• <Craft Faction> That's nice, but how do I know you can tell the difference between that sword you are so fond of swinging and a draw knife? Prove to me you are worthy of my time - make six of these widgets for me.
• <Character> /completes appropriate number of writs
• <Craft Faction> Thank you for your help getting me caught up on my work, now I that I have some spare time how about I teach you how to make that bow you wanted.

Lore is written to justify the implementation of game design; if the factions are separated in the future the lore written then will justify that configuration. I disagreed with the lore written a year ago surrounding the EH recipes for the same reason: A crafter should only advance and develop through effort in crafting, or crafting becomes nothing more than a secondary skill to be leveled up.
Upon leveling to end cap an adventurer is not done. They have the opportunity to continue progression of a character by gearing up. The rules of itemization are well known, and every item is supposed to be earned by activity at the appropriate style of play. I accept and agree with the logic that demands that Legendary and Fabled gear only be accessed through the appropriate Heroic and Epic adventuring activities - and that no crafting activity should bypass those requirements. And I similarly believe it is in the best interest of crafting to create the opportunity to progress and differentiate a crafter by requiring crafting effort to gain access to crafting content.
With this expansion crafters can finally earn recipes via application of effort crafting - and that is significant improvement over previous content where loot drops predominated recipe distribution. The crafting faction and epic quests where an addition to the crafting experience I found entertaining beyond my expectations. The city faction rewards require a crafter to earn the ability to differentiate oneself via crafting effort. The work Domino has put into developing crafting content is a huge improvement over what came before.
The Kunark faction recipes and epic crafting content are also available via effort spent in adventuring. Available at faction levels which, for the most part, are a byproduct of following the quest lines for the quest experience, achievement experience and quest rewards. Undoubtedly the character has put forth all the effort the developers require of an adventurer to access the faction rewards. Once leveled as a crafter, the recipes are available for purchase based on past effort as an adventurer.
As the crafters of Norrath are offered more depth of content and opportunity to develop and advance as a crafter by crafting, I believe it becomes more important that the threshold of crafting effort to access advanced crafting content not by circumvented by effort adventuring. The more time and effort a player spends in pursuing any aspect of the game the greater the rewards they deserve to acquire in that aspect- whether a player levels one aspect or the other first, second, on a different character, or not at all, should not matter.
If a crafter is allowed access to advanced crafting content based on adventuring effort, then crafting becomes nothing more than a secondary skill to be leveled. To be a primary activity on par with adventuring, crafting must have rewards that are only attained by intentional application of crafting effort in pursuit of those rewards. Does that equate to forcing a ‘hybrid' character to do the grind twice, once as an adventurer and once as a crafter? Only if they find it worth earning both sets of rewards - the same choice faced by those players that level crafting before adventuring or level on separate characters.

FoxRiverRanger wrote:

But there were no crafting faction houses, only general faction. From a lore standpoint it is very simple to defend general Faction as implemented.
"You have proven by your efforts that you are a friend and ally of our cause and stronghold. As a reward, all of the amenities of our stronghold at at your service."
And you could do it by crafting, or adventuring, or both in Kunark. Lore supports general faction. Every player city demands it at some level to partake of any and all city services, including crafter only vendors. You cannot talk to a craft house until you have earned general faction. I will repeat this till I am blue in the face, it has been in game since launch. Kunark finally allowed the crafter path.
And let me add, Crafters do indeed have unique rewards from following a crafter only path. Crafters are the only ones that recieve anything of economic worth or remotely useful for pursuing City Society faction. As a Captain in the Buccaneers, I can purchase bad armor, ugly house fluff, and a title. I have yet to see anyone spam in level chat for a mounted sharks head. (that cant be traded anyway). And, I don't begrudge that one bit.
Sigh, I suppose this all started when some of the adventure types decided it was "unfair" to level crafting to finish an Heroic Quest, and it won't end until the last shred of value to having a multi-faceted character is expunged from the game. That is so sad, and detracts so much from one of the things most attractive about this game, the ability to be both things.

Lasai wrote:

"I don't want this opportunity taken away from me in the future with any of my low adventure crafters, but if the vast majority of crafters buy these recipes with adventurer-gained faction, I can't see how SOE will want to justify spending any dev-time on creating writs or even alternative/additional crafting quests for crafters. Especially since they take over the board foaming at the mouth at the thought of doing any crafting for their recipes."

Since it seems this paragraph was unclear to you, I will "enlighten you". (your words, not mine)

As it is now, there are two ways to gain faction, and with that faction, the crafting recipes.
One is the adventure route, the other by crafting.
If the vast majority of the recipes were bought using faction access gained by adventuring, not crafting, then the resources that went into creating the opportunity for crafters to gain it were wasted, and could probably be better spent elsewhere. That would mean that crafters in the future might not get the opportunity to gain faction by crafting, if a faction system would be used again.

Now to the point you seem to have an issue with - given that we don't know the numbers, we do have another variable. The reaction on the forums when someone suggests to use separate faction, adventuring giving adventure rewards, and crafting giving crafting rewards. If this thread is the kind of reaction (yes, complete with tantrums, foaming mouths and squabbling - don't take my word for it, take the words of mods warning and closing at least one of the other threads) that can be expected if they do include crafting next time but make it separate from adventuring, then they might decide to not bother with including crafters at all.

My OPINION that I stand by, is that it makes me sad if that was to happen.
I never claimed it would happen, nor that the sky would be falling, I simply expressed my opinion and refered in a few examples on what I base that opinion on.

Before this thread is also locked, I simply wanted to point out a few things that I personally felt had been overlooked even in the rational part of the debate back and forth. I am sorry that you would take my post personally when it wasn't meant that way. I do stand by (percieved insults or not) my choice of words however.

The biggest issue is that people are not using the same definition for terms. It is really hard to describe a concept if the words used to define that concept are misunderstood.

Most of that can be blamed on SOE, they changed how they are using the word 'faction'. In the Shattered Lands and KOS, it is used as most people understand it (for the most part) in that it is a subgroup trying to take control of the central government. There are the four factions in each city vying for power and there are the three courts (if you don't count Tears) in Maj'Dul. In those cases, the term faction makes perfect sense. Now city faction is kind of goofy, but the use of status points made up for the misuse of the term.

In ROK, there are no separate groups trying to control a central government. The use of 'faction' in this case is wrong. In ROK, the term faction can better be thought of as your reputation to that group. In that case, it makes perfect sense that you can raise your reputation, or awareness, within a group by providing services to that group. Those services can be in the form of either protecting that group physically, or providing goods to them so they can protect themselves.

In ROK, faction is a lot closer to Status Points and Guild Level in the Shattered Lands. They are used to gate who is allowed to purchase rewards on the city merchants. The city itself doesn't give care at all where you got the status points, which faction awarded them. Your reputation within the city in the form of those points (and guild level) opened up the rewards. There are only two differences between that and the RoK factions: the status points (faction) are not a form of currency, but just a way to control who 'deserves' those awards and guild level is irrelevant.

The issue is not that you gain reputation through either adventuring or crafting. Both of those activities are helping the group/city in question. The issue is the time it takes to earn that reputation for each group.

Unless the political structure for cities in the future are set up more like they are in the Shattered Lands, changing it so the rewards are limited based on the path you took doesn't make sense. If you are helping that city prevail against their rivals, the rewards for that city should be open to you.

SnoesieQ wrote:

These crafting rewards as you call 'em...feh Can your low level adventurer use any of 'em?? Nope!
Now...if these 'so-called' rewards were crafted related...as in...enhanced the crafters skill, I can understand. However the 'rewards' being obtained can only be used by people level 77 and above! And by ADVENTURERS!
Like I've said before...but I'll be a bit more blunt about it
The crying and whining about what is diserved or this or that...just goes to show how greedy and self absorbed some are. A low level adventurer can't even use the items being crafted. CAN'T USE THEM!!!! They can only sell them on the broker. Thus making those who sit there saying pure crafters were shafted because of the grind are very greedy and looking to 'corner' the market sort-a-speak.
If the faction resulted in items that could be made and/or increased the skill of the Crafter, I would agree....but they don't... get over yourself and stop being greedy and self-absorbed.
Crafters got an 'epic' style quest specifically designed with SPECIALIZED zones so low level adventurers could go through them easily enough and got a SPECIALIZED cloak catered to them, and an Earring that an adventure-crafter will not use while adventuring.
These cloaks are very specific to they type of crafting you do. Do adventurers have that? Nope! I don't see SK's with 'epic cloaks' specifically designed for them. Sure sure...they already have class armor and Epic Weapons so why would they need a cloak designed for them.
I say stop being butt hurt about having to grind a little bit of faction and either level your toon up or suck it up. Because you know....you could still be stuck in an instance 'grinding' the eff along to 80 with nothing to show for it at the end....


P.S. I do have both an Adventure-Crafter and a Pure Crafter as well...just fyi

Rashaak wrote:

The crafting rewards are recipes. That is what crafters do, craft things. And since the character that I have faction with is a carpenter, she is very well capable of using the crafted items from those recipes, yes.

Now, you might not be interested in making things for your guildies, alts, or for the market. That doesn't mean that no other crafter isn't wanting to help their friends (or their high level alt), nor that its morally wrong to sell things on the broker or that it makes people greedy. Lots of greedily priced loot-drops there too, so that is neither here, nor there. For the record, I only craft for myself, hence my carpenter being the only one so far to have done this. As I said, she can use the items, so your point there is competely moot since you use me as an example.

I complained about writ-grinding? Where? Seriously. At least read people's posts before you quote and flame them. Your rant has very little to do even with the part you did quote.

Meirril wrote:

Not bad advice. Not bad at all!

Seriously folks -- I too am not going to go back and study each and every post here but it is clear a few of you are going in circles around each other and it is starting to get ugly. I do see some good posts here and I would hate to have to close this thread.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with each other provided it is constructive and courteous, but there does come a point where you need to agree to disagree and move on. When you get to where you are namecalling, attacking, insulting, letting each other know they "have no clue", and threatening to report each other -- it's a safe bet you're past that point!

SnoesieQ wrote:

*yawn*
First off don't get me going on the stupid carpenter babying that was given last year
Secondly... this subject is gettin really eff'n tiring. Agree to eff'n disagree already. No matter how you try to make your point there a several other trying to prove the opposite. Just shut the eff up about this already...it's a stupid subject...thats all it is.
I still say those wanting a seperate faction for crafting in RoK or after are gonna get a rude awakening. Crafters got it easy...very easy as it is...but...your just a crafter....thats all ya are. Your viability is based off of broker value and what adventurer's will buy....without that crafters are nothing...

Echgar wrote:

My advice Lock the thread, there are a few folks that are being hostile in their approach of anyone trying to say anything and this is really poor behavior on their part. Also as has been pointed out both sides of the arguement have been artiqulated several times over there is really nothing new happening in this thread other then a rant fest. Of course I have stoped posting in this thread due to such actions that happened to me and i am only giving this as a suggestion since it seems all productivity towards this topic has expired.

Ohiv wrote:

I can't help myself, I have to point out that you are, in fact, posting to this thread, and have not stopped.

As far as the thread, couldn't agree more, time to lock it and move on. Everything that needed to be said has been.

erin wrote:

Why was this sort of post even needed or called for? Really? If you look at the last time i posted it has been several pages ago. It is also very difficult for me to post a statement that a thread should be locked to a moderator without posting it. Now I guess i could have gone out of my way PM's said moderator stated my point of view and maybe had the same effect, but i was just making a public statement that it should be locked instead of doing it behind folks backs.

I am in awe about this post. I have spend all the time since launch leveling my new sarnak brigand along side of my (35) Brigand Jeweler. I get both to lvl 75. I am excited to get to make the new lvl 77 Mastercrafted to find out I can't. I would need to level the 35 brigand up or do months worth of writs being killed by pvp in an 80 zone. Well I could level the 35 brig(and have two t8 brigs). I don't think SOE thought much of people that have crafters besides their main toon. I wasted months on that jeweler. I am not going to grind another toon to 80 crafter or adventurer for a long time.
Maybe while i am trying to figure out what I am going to do I might check out some new games.
Does anyone know how do get a lvl 35 toon that is a crafter able to make the faction gear?

Gorhauth wrote:

It's also an issue how far your path can take you. The current setup has the crafting path at a disadvantage, being locked to 30k. If crafters could craft up to 50k, it wouldn't entirely solve the problem, but it would at least equalize the current situation.

But you're right. If you're helping the city against their enemies either by taking them out or giving their fighters the tools to take them out, then all the rewards should be open to you. Crafters being able to craft for adventuring rewards opens a whole new can of worms, though.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Why or how would it open up a whole new can of worms though? The rewards would be limited based on level, just like the crafting recipes are now. That is how the rewards should be gated, not this 'only craft to 30k' arbitrary stuff that is prejudiced against a certain style of play.

Gorhauth wrote:

Furthermore, the reward for general faction gain or reputation has never been any item, those are separate purchasables. The reward now, and always, has been access to vendors selling them.
No vendor in this game currently that sells general faction items cares how you got that faction. Period.

Gorhauth wrote:

Well, look at it like this. There's often the argument that crafters shouldn't be able to make gear that's even remotely up to par with what can be obtained from a drop because of the effort required in adventuring for it. Letting a crafter max their faction through crafting would give access to some decent adventuring gear, at least on par with what is dropping in the expansion. This kind of shoots holes in the concept that a crafter shouldn't be able to make adventuring gear that's worthwhile do adventuring and could compete with drops, and I can imagine that there would be some opposition to it.

I personally would love it. I have long been an advocate that if a crafter worked up their abilities so they could specialize and learn secret techniques they had to put time and effort into, then they should be able to make some pretty special things. But this idea has been hotly debated in the past and I've seen quite a lot of people against it.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Yes there is that argument about effort vs reward, but honestly, for my Assassin and my SK the reward for earning faction on the adventure side was the faction alone. None of the items on the general faction vendors were worth the cost, or remotely attractive to my classes. Same situation for crafters as well, the value of a Kunark charm as compared to a whetstone is laughable. So, which items do you look at to determine how much "effort" they are worth?
If item worth is the benchmark of effort required, the Pure Weaponsmith crafter should have got the Whetstone recipes as a quest reward for zoning into Fens, and provisioners would have had to grind another 20k faction.
If you start pushing absolute parity for effort, not only will you have to isolate the crafting faction in the future, you would have to go the next step, as Domino did with the TS society recipes, one or two that any crafter can make instead of profession specifics that may or may not be of equal value.
Or worse, it could lead to the absolute parity of Player City vendors, everyone qualified gets the same mundane items with no variety whatsoever.
Absolute parity is a mistake, and will lead to fewer items, more valueless fluff, and less options.

it think it ok the way it is. but it would be nice to have the low level crafters have more options to due crafting writs for fraction. but i doubt it will ever happen so i leveling up my crafters cause i bet it will be better in the long run for furture crafting fractions.