Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Ok, getting things back on track here. People think that the faction gap between adventurers and crafters is to wide and want a way to brigde this gap so crafters will not feel they are being treated unfairly.
A couple of ideas have been posted to remedy this problem. Increasing the faction given from the New Lands, New Profits and Greater Risk, Higher Profits quest. Increasing the amount of faction given by crafting writs.
Some peopl have proposed the idea of a delivery type quest. I do not think this quest would work because there is no way to control it. A high level adventurer/crafter would just trivialize it while a low level adventurer would have a hard tme with it.
There is a way to have crafting quests that do not require people to craft all the time and would be fair to everyone. Domino has already used the concept once so it should not be a problem to do it again. Crafters could have instances quests. Basically it would work like this.
The crafting trainer would as the crafter to go into the cellar to retrieve a few supplies and warn the crafter to the inpending danger of performing said task. The crafter would then zone into a special instance where all the monsters are ^^^ and scale to 20 levels above the adventurer level. They would have to navigate their way through the instance into order to retrieve the items they was sent for. When they are finished, the crafter would then return to the crafting trainer and receive a reward. People always talk about risk vs. reward. This type of quest would make things even for everyone.

Youngone31 wrote:

I just wanted to correct you because the assumption I'd made on this was that the concept was so simple everyone would realise the thing would have to be restricted to lower adventurer levels.
High-level adventurers wouldn't qualify for any such quests. It could easily be set to only offer the quest if craftlevel>74 and Advlevel<70, AND gate its repeatability based on flags from writ grinding or faction levels. As we've seen with the sokokar access quests and multiple other level- or faction-restricted quests, neither of these is impossible to implement.

Jehannum wrote:

Yep, and that's easy enough to do, like the crafter-only Sokokar quest I couldn't do because my adventure level was too high!

Youngone31 wrote:

It could be controled. The sokokar quest at Dreg's docks is an example. There's two, one for adventurers, the other for crafters. Say whichever is highest is the quest they take for the ad/ts hybrid.

I do like the idea of the New Lands quest giving higher faction to both Riliss and Bathezid right off. It does already, but just enough to make them barely non-aggro. The sokokar quests, in the end, give 2400 faction to Teren's Grasp. Could do something similar.

Jehannum wrote:

To be honest, 69 is a high level adventurer. A 69 could do a non controled delivery quest a much easier than say a level 12 adventurer. The higher the level the adventurer is, the more suviabilty the adventurer has. That is why the environment has to be controled in order to keep things fair. Instances are the only way to do that.
Oh and the crafting sokokar quest, New Lands, New Profits and Greater Risks, Higher Profits can be done with an adventurer that is higher than 65....

Qandor wrote:

I'm correcting your misinformation. Saying all the adventurers are on even footing because they do the same thing to get to the same place is the same as saying all crafters are on even footing because you just grind combines to level. It doesn't address the very real issue that some classes have an inherent advantage, such as sages over almost everybody in leveling speed before the writ changes. You know what kind of furor that caused. Same stuff happens on the adventure side, but you are ignoring that, claiming all the adventurers are even.

It would be like saying everybody getting the faction recipes are on even footing because they have to get the faction, completely ignoring the difference in HOW that faction is achieved. Not taking the speed at which it is done would be biased and hypocritical.

Youngone31 wrote:

Sorry, hadn't realised you were apt to quibble over completely meaningless minutiae in an effort to find fault with the concept; you'd seemed quite reasonable earlier in the thread. Is 20 too high a level? Would it get your Treasured T1 knickers in a twist to see the level 30s burning through the delivery because they only get 1-shotted rather than 1/4-shotted, or can use totems (which, by the by, cost them money/time)? I mean the mechanism is sound and you're quibbling over the idea that my offhand example was for level 69? Come off it. That's just a number, and can be adjusted to whatever the devs feel is appropriate in order to keep adventurers from abusing it.
If you weren't interested in actually discussing the possibility, and simply wanted to find a way to attack it, you could have been more clear about that in the first place before I (and the rest of those who understood implicitly that I'm not the guy setting the balance points, Domino - or someone else - is) wasted my time trying to explain it.

Talzar wrote:

Actually he did not. The relative strengths of various adventure classes has no bearing on the matter of faction recipes in light of the current discussion. Neither does the strength or weaknesses of various crafting classes have any bearing.
I say it has no bearing in terms of adventurer class because the premise of this entire thread, in fact the reason I started it, was to make the case that you should not receive crafting recipes for pursuing the adventure quest lines period. If all crafters, regardless of whether they happen to be high level adventurers or not had to compete on a level playing field, your adventure class would not mean anything.
His issue was that he felt the solo adventure quest lines were not solo for certain classes. That may be true but that is strictly an adventure matter.

Been thinking about things for a few days...and the thread I wanted to say this in was recently locked down so saying it here. At this point, it's rhetorical, just wanted to finally say it. I'm not bringing hybrids (adventure/crafter) into this, I'm looking at it from just the crafter view.

When a crafter did the sokokar quests, the final faction for Teren's Grasp was 2,400 faction.

But when New Lands was finished, faction was -39,750 for Riliss and Bathezid.

When Higher Risks was finished, faction was -39,750 for Danak.

Why not the same as with Teren's? Why not 2,400 as well? Or even 0?

2,400 would leave 27,600 to still grind. 36 or 37 writs at 750. That's still a bit to grind. Even if faction was set to 0, grinding up to 30k would be 40 writs.

I just can't shake the feeling that crafters are seen as only capable of writs. It's been proven time and again they're not, and it's been said by crafters they liked the variety and change of the ts epic.

Here's hoping this thread doesn't get locked down either.

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

I would like to comment, more/less along the same lines. If an adventure has to do X amount of quests to get to max faction, then have the same amount of quest iterations for a crafter. Meaning make it the same!! Granted there were other ideas of having more quests then just writs which would be nice too. But i think making it the same number of iterations would help stop this and other threads spinning way way out of control.

Ohiv, I didn't get the chance to respond in the other thread on the "Why must have" issue and since this the where things originated and the topic is relative, I'll go ahead and post it here.

Say you have two people. They are both level 80 adventurers and both are level 80 crafters. One is an adventuring class that can solo easily and has no trouble doing the Kunark adventure faction quests. The other is a class that may have more difficulty and would find having to do the quest lines to gain faction harder and might require more people at certain areas.

The one who can solo easier goes through their quest lines and gains their max faction. Since they are also a high level crafter, they gain the benefit of the new crafter recipes since they have the faction for it. They leveled both and as many argue, it should be their choice what benefits they choose to take advantage of for having a more complete character. This high level crafter gains their crafting recipes through adventuring and also gain the adventuring rewards for getting max faction.

The player who can't solo as easy decides to get their faction by utilizing their high level crafter instead of trying to struggle through the adventuring faction quests. They craft up to 30k, and then hit the limit and can no longer pursue this path. They receive their crafting rewards by crafting, but they are held back from the additional benefit that the person who can solo easier also has because their faction path limits how high they can go. They are not able to gain adventuring rewards with the crafting path.

This is the imbalance that would need to be adjusted. To maintain balance in gaining faction and rewards for faction, both paths, adventuring and crafting, would need to provide max faction. So any crafting rewards attached to the faction could be gained solely from adventuring without ever having to craft a single item. BUT the flipside would also be true, that any adventuring rewards attached to the faction could be gained solely from crafting without ever having to adventure at all.

The argument cannot be made that a more "complete" character who has leveled both deserves more unless both sides of the "complete" character coin are addressed.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

I don't think it's the arguement that I am missing more the I just don't agree. I personaly wouldn't mind allowing everyone to get max faction, but NOT for the reason your trying to give. The reason that I would actually agree to is you are helping the iskar's in the war effort why would your efforts to help supply them stop gainnig you faction at X amount. Really to me that makes more sense for a conversation piece. In the example you gave of the 2 different characters why not just say that the one that couldn't adventure doesn't need said adventuring rewards which is the only reason blocking them from getting them in the first place. Cause once they get to even close to level range all of the crafting work that they did will still be there, they do a few quests (as in alot less then a normal adventure would need to do that didn't take the crafting path) and blam they have those adventureing rewards before they get quest gear to replace them. Yes quest gear will replace those rewards just cause it says legendary doesn't mean it's great. That unfortunatly is another very hot topic in another forum.
This whole argument or set of arguements are comming down to more/less 2 basic points of view. Those that believe that it should be ok to have multiple paths to reach faction goals and those that believe that it shouldn't be the case equal work for all crafters no "easy" ride for adventurer's who happen to craft. There is obviously very strong opinions on either side of the fense. I acknowledge that there are folks that disagree that is their right, I hope they also perserve MY right to also disagree with them. More or less we both agree to disagree and call it a day. THe key points of this whole issue i think were adressed in the first few pages of the first rant thread.

Ohiv wrote:

You aren't understanding. In my example, there is no "once they get close to level range". They *are* level range. Both characters in my example are 80/80 adventurer/crafter.

All the benefits with the current setup now in the game are to the level 80 adventurer who can solo easier and can complete the adventure quests easier, since they can gain max faction with their path. The level 80 adventurer who cannot solo as easily and chooses instead the crafting side is at a disadvantage because their current faction gain stops at 30k.

You keep bringing up the idea that low level adventurers/high level crafters can "grow into" adventuring rewards but you completely ignore the high level adventurers/high level crafters who might prefer to craft for their faction instead of adventuring.

What I'm trying to explain is that if a single faction is maintained, it needs to address both sides of the "complete character" argument. Currently,as I said, there is the argument from those who are high level adventurers and high level crafters that they chose to level both sides of their character and getting these crafting recipes by utilizing only the adventuring side and not the crafting side is acceptable. My argument is that for this to be a valid viewpoint, the opposite also needs to be true.

To be clear, this would mean that a high level adventurer/high level crafter who has chosen to level both would also be able to use their crafter levels to bypass adventuring to gain adventuring rewards.

Now, if it is not acceptable for a player who has leveled both crafting and adventuring to 80 to gain gear they use in adventuring without ever having to actually adventure, then it should not be acceptable for someone who has leveled both crafting and adventuring to 80 to gain crafting recipes without ever having to actually craft.

Otherwise, the "complete character" argument loses validity and becomes an argument for a "complete character but only those who choose to adventure".

I'd just like to point out that I answered this topic on the first page and there is nothing else that I can add to the discussion at the moment. So if you really feel like continuing to argue differences of opinion, carry on, but please keep it civil and remember it's possible for several people to have different, but equally valid, opinions.

Also, apart from the possibility of moderator action if incivility gets carried away, I tend not to enjoy reading rude posts or posts repeating the exact same thing over and over, so I reserve the right to skip them entirely if that does happen.

The singular reason this issue even came up was the quality of the items offered, and the hateful envy displayed by people who were NOT denied the faction, only given a slower path.
City faction has been in the game in this same manner since day one. You cannot betray and gain city faction via a crafting path, they do not exist save for Kunark.
Kunark city faction gives the exact same results as Freeport, Queynos, Gorowynn or Neriak faction. Non Aggro status and eventual access to city amenities, including vendors. If there is unfairness to pure crafters by this, then, it has been part and parcel of the game since day one and has never been an issue. Non Aggro and Vendor access are the reward for city factioning, NOT the items offered on those vendors. (majdul is an exception, there is no Majdul city faction, only courts)
It is good that Kunark offers a separate path for crafters. Again, I can see merit in the arguments made to enhance this path. There should be no limits to the faction gain on either path.
Advocating profession aparthied is wrong. Forcing choices is wrong. Denying that a character is the sum of thier development in every area is wrong.
A 70/70 crafter/adventurer entering Kunark should be able to choose between two equally attractive paths, or both, to gain city faction as they choose. This does not harm the pure adventure person, does not harm the pure crafter person, and is only a recognition that a character is equally qualified to pursue either path.
This is City faction. This is not about a crafting recipe or sword. This faction is not society faction as is Coalition or Buccaneers.
The basic concept is not broken, all that is needed is enhancement to the current craft side experience and faction cap.
Crafters should be thankful for the path. If they betray cities the first thing they have to do is pursue an adventure path to gain city faction, and only then get the option to pursue crafting house faction. City faction has ALWAYS rewarded the hybrid, period. Kunark is nothing new, and in fact, is a great improvement on previous methods to gain City Faction for crafters, and one that does not require a separate faction grind afterwards to gain recipes/rewards from Societies.
There are cases throughout the game that reward the Hybrid. There is no pure crafter path to the DFC forge, nor any other instance crafting. I don't recall that being the end of the world when it was introduced, perhaps because they were mid level items not causing the consternation to a few that the Kunark items seem to.
Are we going to go back and repair EVERY percieved injustice to a pure crafter, or just this one? Really, unfairness is unfairness right, and shouldnt be tied to quality of items offered? Or should it? Seems to me that in this case the "injustice" perception is purely item driven.
Unfairness would be an inability by any means to aquire something. It is fair that raiders have better gear drops than I get soloing, because I have the means and choice to raid. Crafters have the means to achieve City faction in Kunark. Nobody is denied a path to city faction. It doesnt get any more fair than that.
If you want to make the argument that the crafting faction path be improved, great, Positive approaches are good.
I will repeat, I have an 80/80 woodworker, and I see absolutely no wrong in how I gained city faction on her. I have a 44/75 Alchemist, and I have no issues with how I am gaining City faction with her either, in fact I am very happy that I have the option. I refuse to accept that my 80/80 is the villian here, and my 44/75 is all aglow with the purity of her crafting only factioning. They are both me, and I am only pursuing the means given me to faction, means based on the sum total of my chars development, not a singular dimension.
And I am done with this topic, as I am tired of being insulted.
Edit, was composing this and didn't see Domino's post, so if I stepped on her toes I am sorry, and didnt mean to.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

As I see it there are two paths to get crafting rewards I am happy that there are two paths, you are not apparently. Well to qualify you want the crafter to get all the adventuring loot in addtion to the crafting loot. My comment still is the same, doesn't really matter the level of the characters they can be 80 and still grow into gear or 20 and grow into it. How about we agree to disagree and call it a day?

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

I can agree with this. Exactly what I would love to see, equal paths determined by level, and an actual choice for those who are qualified to do both.
Heck, I did craft stuff in BW simply because I was sick to death of "Hail, A Bathezed Outrider". I did craft stuff when I was tired of fighting things. I loved two paths and the choice to pursue either, and was very disappointed when my craft path was closed at 30k.

Ohiv wrote:

There are indeed two paths to crafting rewards, but only one currently to the adventuring rewards. That's the thing I have an issue with.

My personal preference would be separate factions, but only because I feel the increased effort a crafter would have to display pursuing a completely separate faction would provide a good argument for having meaningful and useful rewards for that crafter.

But if a single faction was the implementation, it would need two paths to either reward. It just isn't balanced otherwise. Either a single or separate factions could be possible, I think, no matter which my personal preference goes with. That's just the major flaw currently with a single faction system.

And Domino, I'm a little disappointed to see such a close-minded attitude from your direction. Your post on the first page states that you intend to have separate factions in the future. But there's enough support of a single faction system that shouldn't we discuss the pros and cons of that system as well?

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

While I tend to agree with much of what you said, I do not think Domino is being close-minded. She's probably just as sick of this conversation as I and many of you are. What happened in RoK happened. I don't particularly like it but I don't hate it either. It obviously needs to be rethought for the future given the fact that the entire crafting population, adventurers or not, are at each other's throats. I've read through most of these posts and I see so much anger, resentment and feelings of entitlement on both sides. It's sad. Crafters have always seemed to band together regardless of their adventure level. Now we all want to take things from each other because we feel we "deserve" them more.
If you're a crafter, period, you have worked hard to get where you are. I know I have. I chose to get faction for the mirrors and mannequins because I love house items and because I wanted to make them for my guildies also. I chose to do the RoK faction writs on my carpenter for the same reasons. I also have an 80/80 and I wouldn't dream of trying to deny ANY other crafter the same opportunities to receive the same recipes/bonuses what have you. I'm happy if there is a path of any sort for lower level folks to obtain these rewards because I feel ALL crafters should have the chance to obtain them if they choose to work hard enough for them.
As long as there always remains a path for lower level adventurers, I am happy. If it starts to turn into special recipes for these "hybrids" you all keep talking about, then I won't be happy at all. I would like to see EVERYONE get what they want but in a fair and equitable manner.
I have gotten so riled up over this whole thing that I actually started leveling my low level adventurer for fear that things will change or that people who want hybrids to get special advantages will win out. It's sad because if I level her to 80, I will never play her other than as a crafter. That's the reason she is so low in the first place. I started her as a carpenter thinking that she was my main adventurer class of choice and later found out that she wasn't. By that time, her crafter level was so high that I stuck with that aspect of her. If that makes me "stupid" or "lazy" well so be it. However, I hardly think that leveling 2 adventure characters to max and 3 crafters to max is lazy at all.
I hope this situation gets ironed out because frankly, it's stressing me out and dang people, it IS a game after all!
Good wishes to all of you (sincerely) and here's hoping that we can stand together as crafters once again....and soon!

I have not seen a single high level adventure crafter ask that anything be taken from the so called "pure" crafter. Most have freely admitted that the crafter-only line needs tweaked and given more options as to type of quests. I would fully support changes that make the craft line more equitable in terms of time, variety and amount of faction able to be earned.
However, it seems to be fine to take something from me, cast aspersions, insult, belittle my efforts. I left this thread alone for a long time because of how I felt at being labeled as some sort of exploiter for simply playing my character according to my capabilities.
It seems fine to create mechanics that force me to fit the perception of "pure" crafter by some regardless of my, or any other high adventure level crafters feelings on the subject. I am stunned that people want to separate my character into two unrelated and separate entities, Crafter Lasai and Adventure Lasai, with neither allowed to benefit the other unless it is neutral territory.
Kunark city faction was and is not crafter related, adventure related, it is everyone-related. All the adventure crafter got was what some claim to be a faster route to faction. Everyone can earn it though. Nobody got shafted out of it. The low level crafter deservedly got the special treatment, go ahead, betray and craft your way into another cities faction... oh, thats right, you can't. For the first time in this game you can earn city faction by crafting, but apparently that isn't enough, you want exclusivity of vendors along with it. You want to force every crafter in this game who adventures to earn faction twice. City faction.
Yeah, lets do that with city faction. Let every betrayer face that. 30k faction to buy fuel, recipes and do craft writs, 30k separate faction to buy anything else or do adventure writs. Lets balkanize the whole game into separate little bubbles of self interest. That way both sets of "pure" people can smugly ignore any facet of the game beyond their own self limiting choices and insure no impure blasphemer EVER joins thier private clubs.
Mooshga and others like her must die, simply because they dare to give crafting recipes to "gasp", adventure people. Yah, it's the same issue folks, a craft reward earned by adventure. All that must go, don't you think? After all, it is a PRINCIPAL at stake here, not just some items. Conceptually, there is no difference between Mooshga's Mush and a Danak Wishbone, by the reasoning of some it is a crafter reward that should only be earned by crafting, and every crafter that earned that reward is undeserving of it, as they adventured to get it. EVERY VESTIGE of UNEARNED crafting rewards must be expunged!!! (sarcasm)
By the same reasoning all Adventure quests requiring crafting have to be changed. They give adventure rewards, not crafting rewards. Doesnt matter if it uses geocraft, it is crafting, and no PURE adventure person should be forced to craft in order to progress, not in any form. Purity requires this. Lines must be drawn and not crossed!! (more scarcasm)
Seems to me the taking away only goes one direction. I feel no sense of this being my community, in spite of me having low level adventure crafters. If my high adventure level Crafter is undeserved of anything but contempt here, then why in gods name would I want ANY of my crafters included?
Adios. Have fun with your private club.