Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Qandor, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    Lasai wrote:
    What's your ideal design for a single faction system? Would you limit the crafters as they are now, or allow adventuring or crafting to lead to max?
  2. ARCHIVED-denmom Guest

    bobobobobo wrote:
    Sorry to say, your only options are to 1) delete the sarnak brig and make the brig/jeweler your main, 2) delete the brig/jeweler and take up jeweler on your main, 3) do the writs for faction to gain the recipes.

    I know, it blows...I'm right there with you. No, not on a pvp server...but I have 8 crafters. 2 of which are hybrids, one is L80 and can buy the recipes for WS but they, frankly, suck. My Alchy is on the way up, L44, sooner or later will get there. The remaining 6 I'll have to grind faction on if I want the recipes...11-15 hrs per faction, 33-45 RL hrs for all three factions. That's per crafter for me.

    I just wish the books weren't no-trade and I could buy them with my L80...or there was some other way to gain faction like with Maj'Dul's tokens.

    In the end, I think I'll be bringing my six retired Wardens and Furys and Monk out of retirement and back into play just to get the recipes. I'd rather spend the 33-45 RL hours that way than slogging writ after writ after writ. I just don't have the time for that and don't want to spend what little play time I do have in such a time sink.
  3. ARCHIVED-Lasai Guest

    Gwyneth@Najena wrote:
    I would absolutely allow for maximum faction to be gained by crafting. It is patently unfair to look at crafters and say "you don't need more faction because you don't need the items". I would have loved the ability to do both right to max. I would far rather "grind" repeatables at a craft table than say "hail, a bathezid watch outrider" a jillion times. I got to 80 in both adventure and crafting on consecutive days.. I do both fairly equally regardless of "rewards".
    I would enhance the quest experience for the crafter. New Lands was a blast on my 42 warden, I really enjoyed it, but the faction gain was MEH compared to the effort and possible deaths incurred by a lowbie. I think New Lands and the Danak mission should have been at least 2500, or more like 5k.
    I think some timesink quests would have been nice, one idea I had would be implemented like the Hungry Hobbit on TS docks. "We are interested in the materials used by the outlanders in thier manufacturing. Procure for us 100 samples each of minerals, wood, hide, root and raw foods from X land for testing." give them a drop down box to harvest at the level they are comfortable with, and do the method used in the food gathering quest of not allowing traded or purchased goods. Give the crafters variety and some challenge besides button mashing. New Lands was fun, we needed more.
    Another idea I had was a delivery of crafted goods to one of the Kunark factions, but the hook would be special recipes gained from a no zone book clicky at your home craft instance whose recipes would poof on quest completion. That would enforce travel time, make the effort of the quest worth more faction, and really would be more fun. Perhaps make it deliverable to some outpost or tower that takes some plotting to get to, with again more faction relating to more effort.
    Yet another idea was based on Domino's clever designs for the craft epic. Steal a book of recipes from a Master Crafter in your home town. Problem would be, how to get past the guard dogs... perhaps concoct some sleeping treats? Scale it like she did the epic, use one of the abandoned progression zones (every predator who progressed knows about guard dogs), make it fun.
    Of course some quests would be gated by adventure level. I did the crafting sokokar quest on my 42 warden and thought it was also well done, but again, the sole shot at Terens grasp faction ended up pretty paltry.
    Which brings up another point. Terens grasp HAS Society houses. That would be one place to add Teren Hall of Crafters faction, pursued like Coalition and Ironforge, with similar rewards as those give. If there were adventure interest, maybe add faction writs to the other halls as well.
    Since I would support Craft faction to 50k, I would go all out on BW faction by adding 20k BW faction to the crafters Epic quest. After all, you do all that work to satisfy his curiousity. I don't think that would be exhorbitant, given the faction gain by some quests in JW for adventurers. This could be retrofixed by simply allowing crafters who have already finished that quest to speak to him again to gain the extra faction.
    I do think, however rightly, or wrongly, that there should be a perk for the Character with both paths developed. I felt the game lost something when they bowed to the demands that adventure people shouldn't have to have crafting to finish a couple of HQs, and I really felt the inclusions of non crafter crafting in some instances were a huge mistake. General faction gain could be something that fully allows both paths, and yet gives a minor perk to the fully developed character, and in the process allows a person with choices to actually make them.
    Something that really rankles me is quests designed for non crafter crafting, Hey Devguy, if you feel like an adventurer shouldnt craft, don't put it in. Current assassin epic prime example, crafting poisons. Why? what is the point of non crafter crafting for adventurers who you don't want to force crafting upon? It is just sillyness, and just stop propagating it.
    People maintain that SOE guaranteed from the start that both Adventuring and Crafting would be achievable as stand alone activities. They are. I could be a successful crafter without a single Kunark recipe. I could be a successful assassin without my quiver full of arrows made by me, using bows made by me. What they did not guarantee was that there would be restrictions put in place to prevent a fully developed character from benefitting by being both.
    Condemn me all you want, but, I see absolutely no wrong in a single character with 160 levels of work done having a few perks by doing so. I do not buy the attitude that having 80 levels on two characters counts as the same, it is not. It has nothing to do with time spent, effort, or anything, it is all about developing a single character to thier full potential.
    Well I hope some of that made sense. I don't believe in Nerfing. If there is percieved unbalance in general faction gain, Balance it, don't punish one aspect, enhance the other. Don't belittle people for playing the game with the Characters they developed using the tools given them. Above all, choice is good, and equally attractive choices even better.

    EDIT. I made all my commentary in the context of Kunark. Of course, Kunark is probably past adjusting, but, the ideas remain, as does my conviction about general faction gain being equally available by craft, adventure, or both on a character capable of both.
  4. ARCHIVED-erin Guest

    While I agree there should not be a limit on faction gain for crafting writs, I still don't see the purpose. Every item that can be gained above 30k is purely for adventurers.
    Now if there was a 40k crafting recipe, that only high level adventurer/crafters could get, that would obviously be at issue.
    I don't think I've seen one person in this thread explain why this is a huge problem, other than a sort of fairness issue. Yes it is unfair, but there are 0 consequences to that unfairness.

    Being able to get 5k per easy fetching quest while the crafter has to do 750 per writ, that's definitely very unfair. I am totally for opening up the adventuring quests to the high level crafter/low level adventurer, that would bring some fairness to the whole deal.
  5. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    erin wrote:
    Yes, and the recipes that someone can gain by purely adventuring are only usable by crafters, yet there is still a way for them to completely bypass any sort of crafting requirement to get the recipes. Yet there isn't a way to bypass that for crafters to get the adventuring rewards, since they are capped at 30k and cannot access them. If adventurers are going to be able to bypass crafting to get crafting rewards, then crafters should be able to bypass adventuring to get adventuring rewards. Your system is imbalanced if you allow one and not the the other.

    And Lasai, you have some very good ideas. I agree with most of them. My whole issue with perks to people who do both is that the perk doesn't go both ways. And I feel that if it is going to be an allowable perk, it must apply to both sides of the equation. However, as you can see in the quote above, there is a decided concern about the perk applying to a crafter who doesn't have to adventure for their adventure rewards. Which is why I think any single faction system should take those concerns into consideration. We don't want things to be unfair to one side but we also don't want to ignore the issues the other side might have with future proposals as well.
  6. ARCHIVED-erin Guest

    Gwyneth@Najena wrote:
    Yes yes, I get all that. I even agree with you to a large extent, its unfair. My point is, from 30k to 50k, there is no purpose for a non-adventurer to get faction. There's nothing to be gained. Is there?
  7. ARCHIVED-erin Guest

    Ohiv wrote:
    /shrug. I thought it was funny. When someone says they weren't going to post again, and then they post again, I find that funny. I've done it, everyone's done it. We get passionate about a topic. Nothing to get too excited about, I'm sorry you got offended. Pointing out absurdities is a common human failing. Mea Culpa.
  8. ARCHIVED-denmom Guest

    erin wrote:

    In addition, if you have one crafter, it may not be that bad of a slog. But as one with multiple crafters, it just seems too high of a mountain to climb.

    33-35 hr time sink just isn't fun. Some "game play".

    City tradeskill writs are worse. Sure, can use them to level up a crafter, but slogging blue recpies for less xp for several levels...you get more xp slogging a single of a level recipe. Sure, there's status for the guild, but we gain more doing adventure writs and HQs.

    Frankly, what crafters get, endless time sink of writ slogging, just plain blows.

    /looks at the above

    I'm getting grouchy...so I'll leave it here for now.
  9. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    erin wrote:
    From negative faction to 40k, is there anything to be gained for an adventurer toward adventuring? Does there need to be an intro quest that starts them at 40k faction but cuts them off from any faction rewards prior to that faction amount?
  10. ARCHIVED-Lasai Guest

    Gwyneth@Najena wrote:
    If, in the future they balance the effort required to gain the faction cap by either tradeskill or adventure it will be fair.
    The reward is access to general vendors, not items. No matter what item is on there, they have to A. Earn the Faction and B. Earn the levels to use it.
    If my 44 Warden/77 Alchemist earns the faction she has immediate use of the alchemist items. She cannot use the Warden items until she has put in the same effort as any other level 70+ Warden in game. She is not getting that Warden item for 0 effort. She cannot craft to gain Warden levels. IF the effort required to gain faction is equitable, then by the time she has gained enough levels to use the items she has indeed invested the same effort as a Warden with no crafting skills at all.
    Equal Faction Effort + Equal effort leveling = fairness in regards a single character.
    Note I am saying effort. If effort required is equitable, no one should care what sphere that effort was expended in.
    Earn faction once by any means. Level adventure OR crafting to a point of being able to use rewards. I cannot see how this would be unfair to anyone. Anyone could do it. If your character is a single dimension, you get only the benefits of the levels you have earned. If at anytime you choose to earn more levels, other items become usable.
    And yes, this may be percieved as skewing the equation towards the Character who has invested time in leveling both aspects of a single character. Yes, it does. However, it does NOT prevent a single dimension character from leveling their lower level side to take advantage of this benefit. No one is disallowed the advantage.
    I would far prefer this, than a system of purists demanding that every item and perk in game be scrutinized as to totally separate the two dimensions of a single character into two separate and distinct characters. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. It defeats the purpose of being allowed to pursue two dimensions, and creates an artificial de-facto situation of thier being only one choice per character, as you have split each into a separate crafting or adventure character only able to pursue goals within the narrow confines of that single consideration.
  11. ARCHIVED-Lasai Guest

    Gwyneth@Najena wrote:
    Does every aspect of this game have to even revolve around trinkets? I have ally faction with 14 Kunark factions, most of whom I haven't purchased a thing from.
    I am allied with a jillion factions in this game, most of whom offer no perks at all.
    Why limit crafter faction gain based on items then. Faction is faction, as it is throughout the entire game. Faction is solely a measurement of "what have you done for me" or "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Artificially capping crafter faction gain was a mistake and ignored the basic general faction fundamentals of the game.
  12. ARCHIVED-Qandor Guest

    FoxRiverRanger wrote:
    Well said.
  13. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    Lasai wrote:
    Take a look at the first argument. Erin is saying that there's no reason crafter faction should have go above 30k, because there are only adventuring related rewards there. You and I are saying that there shouldn't be a limit.

    My argument that you quoted was giving the other side of the "Well there's only adventuring rewards after 30k" statement, because up to 40k there are only crafting rewards. So the question becomes, if crafters shouldn't access the rewards after 40k, then does the opposite need to be true and adventurers can't access rewards below 40k?

    It would be a complicated and annoying system, but like crafters don't need adventuring rewards, in this argument, neither would adventurers need crafting rewards, in this argument.
  14. ARCHIVED-erin Guest

    Gwyneth@Najena wrote:
    Please bear in mind that I believe that adventurers shouldn't have gotten any leg up. These were crafting rewards, there should have been a crafting only faction and all crafters should have started on the same footing. That being said, my high level adventurer/high level crafters took full advantage of the easy way.

    I didn't say there's no reason for crafter faction to go above 30k, I said there are no rewards above 30k for the crafter. All post-30k rewards are adventurer only. I understand there are many masochists out there that want maxxed faction regardless :) That's cool. I have no idea why crafters couldn't get beyond 30k in the first place, what is the purpose of the artificial ceiling? Its not like adventurers are going to crank out another 27 writs instead of going out and doing 5 quests. I was just saying it serves no real purpose (again, I should have said except for being artificial and for those that just like to max everything).

    So my question still is, other than annoyance at an artificial ceiling, what is the point for a crafter to go from 30k to 50k?
  15. ARCHIVED-Mistal Guest

    Hi there, I just wanted to post a little something, it may have been mentioned before to be fair i haven't read every post here but firstly I do want to say thanks for the cool new crafter stuff... I have a couple of points i would like to voice...
    My crafter was lvl 18 adventurer, and doing the epic crafters quest was such great fun!! I personally loved the part where the crafter quest ran in sequal with the adventurers questline (saving Lynchpin) so I was wondering if it would be possible perhaps to consider in the future perhaps giving the crafters our own set of quests in a similar way, ok maybe not for quite as much faction as the adventure quests but some nice little 1.5k bonus' here and there say two of them in ever 10k faction, I love to craft as much as the next person but writs do take it out of you.
    My other point is specifically the Danak faction, for rillis i sat there for almost 3 days straight and crafted all the faction to get the chicken foot (go me!!) great i thought i'll do the same for the wishbone... but the carp table is down on the docks area... so the writs now take even longer. I really don't wish to sound like i'm complaining, but please could you have them finish building that ship and move the table with the others!! LOL
    Have a good one all,
  16. ARCHIVED-TaleraRis Guest

    erin wrote:
    The reasoning is that crafters could only get to 30k and had to stop because it was adventuring rewards only past 30k and the general feeling was that crafters shouldn't be able to craft their way to adventuring rewards.

    This is a point which I feel has been completely negated by the opposite being true, that adventurers can adventure their way to crafting rewards. Personally, to fix the fiasco that Kunark faction has become, I think crafters should have their artificial ceiling removed and be allowed to go to 50k. It's far too late to implement anything that would limit adventurers from gaining crafting rewards by gaining faction from adventuring, but it's not too late to rectify the situation for crafters in Kunark.

    For the future, though, I have to say I'm in the separate faction camp. I don't want to take away perks adventurer/crafters may have. I have an adventurer/crafter myself. But some sort of measure should be taken to prevent the imbalance we currently have with the Kunark faction system.
  17. ARCHIVED-Jehannum Guest

    I'd tend to agree with TR - though as a crafter/adventurer myself I take a bit of a hit if the factions get split next time, it'd certainly eliminate some of the issues in balance - with separate factions, the fact that adventurers max much more quickly (though I'm not going to touch the 'effort' angle with a 10' pole) rankles with the pure crafter, especially when that same faction grinds so slowly for the latter.
    Basically there are two good ways to deal with things.
    1. Adjust the balance between adventurers' rate of gain and that of crafters, on a single faction. Pros: simpler to manage. Cons: runs the risk of what we saw with Kunark, where any imbalance may be used to push an agenda. When you have more or less equal throngs of unhappy people on both sides of the issue, all convinced they're the ones taking it up the proverbial hoop, you've found the sweet spot. As of Kunark, that hasn't happened.
    2. Split the factions. Pros: easier to keep the pure crafters and pure adventurers segregated in their faction paths and determine appropriate benefits for each. Cons: many hybrids will look at the multi-grind and say forget it. Many of those who'd be complaining about #1 above will complain that the other camp has it easier, etc. etc. - The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is a mauvier shade of pinky-russet.
    Of the two, though, despite it being antithetical to the concept that a hybrid adventurer/crafter should realise some synergistic benefits, I prefer 2. If only because it'd shut up about 80% of the complaints - that other 20% will never stop beaking 'til they die. :)
  18. ARCHIVED-AshaAnnandale Guest

    Been trying to start the faction quest, which is a prerequisite for the crafter epic.
    Have been killed 6 times in 30 minutes by a level 80 Dirge trying to get into Teren's Grasp :D Oh, I am level 9 brig ;)
    Epic quest is not a walk in the park for a pure crafter on a PvP server, but when has life ever been easy?
  19. ARCHIVED-Nuhus Guest

    Salisha@Nagafen wrote:
    I assume theres no immunity at the crafting stations?
  20. ARCHIVED-Ohiv Guest

    Jehannum wrote:
    First off I'm obviously of the camp that having more then one way to do something is a good thing. As in having my crafter benifit from my adventuring is a nice perk. Been seen many times through many zones how this was and still is the case.
    I was kind of bouncing some numbers in my head and thought i would kind of mention them since we seem to keep going round robin on this. Basically it's ~300 writs to build enough faction with all 3 iksars. I rounded up to make numbers easy you will see that trend as i keep going forward. Soo relativly speaking it takes about 1 minuite per combine, each writ is making 6 items that's 6 minuites. Now since i know we all have interuptions, fuel, spouce, food, etc i'm going to round that up to 10minuites (more then a rush order writ in a city). SOO the amount of time for a person to "grind" these writs would be about 50 hours (300 writs * 10 minuites = 3000 minuites = 50 hours ) non stop which is about 2 days nonstop. OK Now lets compair apples and apples a solo crafter will be spending 50 hours to get said faction, a solo adventure will be spending WAY MORE then 50 hours to get said faction. Then again that solo adventure gets alot more benifit and rewards along the way to get said faction.
    NOW that being said yes 50 hours is less time then i spent adventuring but I STILL THINK it is wrong to have such a huge timesync to get said factions. I don't agree with the entitlement approach folks use to try and justify why they should have the faction. I agree with the cold hard numbers, 50 hours is too much time for anyone to grind writs. Pure and simple that isn't fun, it will never be fun.
    So how about we all just agree that the amount of time needed for a "crafter" to get this faction is borked and stop with the quibbling back and forth on semantics? It's the sheer volume of time that is truely the issue here.

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