Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Wow, I assume you're not talking to me since I said none of what you're referring to. sigh

Lasai wrote:

Thank you for saying everything I've been thinking but couldn't assemble the words to express. *claps*

Your post is, though, goosing me to expound on how I feel about this.

To all those demanding so-called "pure" crafters are getting the short end of the stick:

Crafting is just one aspect of the game. Adventuring is another aspect. NO player is REQUIRED to only craft or only adventure. One of the primary qualities of -this- game is that you can do BOTH. It's not SWG post-NGE where a crafter character can't adventure and an adventure character can't craft.

There are limitations, though, if you don't participate in a broader range of the game. If YOU, the player, limit yourself if you chose to limit your character to only one aspect or another. You can even choose to have one "pure" adventurer and one "pure" crafter, but it is YOU who limits them to those so-called "pure" rolls.

Because YOU limit yourself and your characters, there shouldn't be a penalty to those who want to play a broader aspect of the game.

RoK factioning is not unfair to anyone. Pure crafting characters finally have a way to increase faction with an expansion's factions in order to obtain special items from it. This is a BOON and a change in the right direction! Both adventurers -and- crafters can earn faction 100% independent of each other.

Desert of Flames had crafting related rewards (the ancient scrolls and advanced books) available for sale from faction merchants but the ONLY way to obtain faction was through adventuring (faction quests) or obtaining items from adventurers (coins). The "pure" crafter or low adventure level crafter (like I was then) who did not want to begger themselves to buy coins could not get any faction in order to obtain those recipes from a faction merchant or to get a home in that new city (something which is really neither adventure nor crafter related). Crafters, myself included, begged and pleaded for a crafting means to gain faction and were shunned.

Ironically (in light of this thread), when I found out you can't get crafting writs in RoK once you hit 30K, I viewed it (and still do actually) as a penalty for having an adventurer who crafts (my arasai is 80 coercer / 62 tailor now) or an adventurer/crafter (Rijacki is about even crafting and adventuring since her adventuring caught up during EoF). To be able to do writs, if you also adventurer, you have to curtail your adventuring so you won't risk going to high in faction in order to be able to craft the writs.

Should there be separate factions? In my opinion, NO! There shouldn't be a penalty for being involved in both aspects of the game just as there should be ways to be involved if you only play one aspect or the other.

RoK factioning is NOT unfair to pure crafters. The fact pure crafters have a way to work up RoK factions that sell recipes of any kind is a BOON. It's very fair. Crafters (those "pure" or who craft more than adventure or even those who do both in equal parts) FINALLY have a way to gain faction within an expansion and don't need to rely on their own or others' adventuring in order to obtain them.

(Do I wish there were more quests and not just writs writs writs or that the writs gave guild status.. well, yeah. Either of thoe would be a nice addition, especially the first)

DominoDev wrote:

I understand your not wanting to read repeating posts...but I think they're repeating the exact same thing over and over because they want to be heard and aren't sure they are, either by folks reading/replying and yourself.

Rijacki wrote:

You cannot even go there with the Maj'dul reference. There was a perfectly viable alternative for low adventure/high crafter characters who could not work the Maj'dul factions. The recipe books were dropped as well and easily purchased on broker or obtained through drops by an alt who had the adventuring levels. The only perk given to adventurer/crafters in Maj'dul was the ability to perhaps get the books a bit cheaper, at least initially. There was never an issue regarding those books. To even point to it is disingenous but hey I'm not surprised anymore by some of the justifications fabricated for the free ride adventurer/crafters received in Kunark.
Should there be seperate factions? Absolutely YES, in my opinion. You do not win the Super Bowl and get a World Series ring too just because you happen to play baseball as well. It seems some of you feel you should since hey, we do play baseball. If you want both you should have to go out and work for them. Both of them. Continued reference to removal of an unwarranted "perk" as some sort of penalty to adventurer/crafters is almost laughable.

Qandor wrote:

Could a crafter gain faction in Maj'dul without either being an adventurer or getting items from adventurers? No. Can crafters gain faction in Kunark without being an adventurer or getting items from adventurers? Yes.

RoK brought an alternate way to gain faction without adventuring that no other expansion had before.

Were the benefits of having faction in Maj'dul as beneficial as they are in RoK zones? ahhh.. THAT is an entirely different question.

- If you want a house in Maj'dul, there is only one route to obtain it, getting faction from or related to adventuring (coins obtained from adventurers) with no crafting option.

- Yes, the crafting recipes of DoF are available by other means and not just faction but the recipes outside of the faction merchants are drop items which requires, what, an adventurer to obtain. There is ZERO option for a crafter to obtain the recipes without an adventurer or adventuring being involved. Explain to me how you think a crafter could obtain the faction sold recipes without -any- adventuring being involved (excluding, too, anything obtained from someone who adventures because that does involve adventuring).

- RoK, there is finally an option for a crafter to obtain something entirely by crafting without -any- adventuring involved. Can adventurers who craft obtain the same rewards? yes, but there is still the OPTION to obtain them without adventuring.

Before RoK, in every expansion, there was never any viable way a crafter could obtain faction without adventurer involvement.

Rijacki wrote:

Amen!
RoK does not cater more to the adventure crafter the way previous expansions did, such as DoF. The specialty recipes were drops off mobs and a pure crafter had to purchase those. Same with the Maj'dul faction coins. Had to be purchased.
Crafters were given a viable and easily attainable alternative to gaining faction in RoK. The only thing unfair is the whiners who think they deserve more than another, because the option they chose wasn't solely catered to them.
If your a pure-crafter, more power to ya, but I can gaurantee you didn't do it solely on your own. Without the adventurers supplying your harvests and writs to fund your fuels, and the broker to sell your product, you wouldn't of been able to do it.

This whole thing is so...convoluted and hard to really just talk and make points about.

I've eight crafters, six are retired adventurers turned crafter.

I've adventure only toons, five of them. One of them is a L9 Artisan only because of needing to create the crafted HQs like Stein of Moggok. I'll be using the comission system when the others do these crafting HQs.

I've two hybrids. One is my main, L80/L80, the other is an alt, L44/L80.

I see all sides of this debate/argument. It's all gone round and round, with civility and none, quiet voices and shouting.

Just seems like I'm damned no matter where I turn.

So...bottom line, just what is my whole problem/view on all this?

I just wish the crafter had other means of gaining faction other than writs.

It seems that's the only thing crafters are seen as capable of doing for faction. Yet there's the Teren's Grasp quests, 2,400 to Teren's Grasp from the sokokar series. New Lands and Higher Risks both should have given more faction. It comes across from Bathezid, Riliss, Danak that crafters aren't worth very much to them...250 faction, barely enough to make crafters non-aggro.

I guess I'm tired...seems to be going no where, that there will be no changes, and that suggestions aren't wanted.

I'm out for now...y'all take care, may things work out for all, or at least be a decent compromise.

Qandor wrote:

No, but if Raiders and the Royals were better, Bo could have earned both a World Series ring and a Super Bowl ring. He was not excluded from one for doing the other, which is where your analogy falls apart. Edit because I guess I see where you'll say that he has to play both baseball and football to get each reward.
And where do you think those Ancient Teachings scrolls on the broker came from? Oh yeah, adventurers.
This topic across all it's threads seriously has run it's course. People from both sides have stated their opinions, and now all they are doing is casting aspersions upon the other side or restating for the umpteenth time their original argument. COuntering an opposing point by restating a previous argument is not countering it at all, and that's what this topic has devolved into.

I wish you well

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

What more can a crafter do honestly other than craft, that is there purpose. So...the unfortunate compromise will have to be writs and faction grinding. But atleast its something. I think to many look the gift horse in the mouth way too much.
Crafting only utilizes 10% of the content available in this game. So by limiting yourself to that 10% you have take what you can get, because you could be getting nothing.

1. You could still have to grind your way through levels without the help of writs giving you extra experience.
2. You could still be sitting in an instance away from everyone and everything, grinding your levels never seeing the light of day, or the new lands and rewards.
3. You could still be grinding out subs for ever and a day just to be able to make your final products
4. You could still be having to barter and cross your fingers that items are not overpriced, because interdependancy made all crafters solely dependant on Alchemists.
5. You could still be dealing with a critical failure resulting in a crude item and not returning at least the fuel used on a failed combine
6. You could still be sifting through pages of buffs to find the correct ones for your tier level
7. You could still be sitting there nekkid using power totems, clarity potions and mad prayers to the gods in order to maintain power consumption while crafting
8. You could still be sitting there with no way to obtain that 'rare' Advanced book from each tier, because it costs upwards to a plat or more. Instead of doing Grandmaster quests which grant you a rare book...

A lot of bones have been thrown the way of a pure crafter in the past year or so...so don't think your at the short end of the stick in the slightest...now...I will say however:
Should the Sokokar Quest of given more faction for Teren's grasp? Nope! But there should be a way to gain faction for crafters in Terens Grasp through writs.
Should New Lands and Higher Risks garner more faction from there quest? Absolutely!

Qandor wrote:

MajDul was exactly the same, in that the adventure crafter you despise so got a HEAD START on the recipes from the FREE RIDE they got from adventuring and an UNEARNED crafting advantage, in your slanted viewpoint the same issue you are foaming at the mouth about regarding Kunark, with the additional restriction for the pure crafter of having to wait passively for adventure provided drops to appear on a broker, or coins the same. Your "viable alternative" was far less than what crafters got in Kunark. A pure crafter could do NOTHING without adventure provided items, and MajDul gave MORE advantage to the Adventure Crafter than anything we are seeing in Kunark. How was that fine with you?
My assassin spent a couple hours slaughtering guards for coins, "gave" them to my woodworker side, who then bought 10 levels of "unearned" advanced books by, in your words, "doing squat" to earn them as a crafter. SAME ISSUE.
How on earth can you maintain that Majdul was ok when Adventure crafters did the very same thing you are screaming about in Kunark. They gained faction as a by product of adventuring, walked into a court and casually bought an "unearned" crafting only item from a Vendor. You maintain there was a "perfectly viable alternative" there, yet maintain faction by crafting in Kunark is NOT?
In fact, I would hazard the guess that your "separate" adventure side fed coins to your "separate" crafter side, utilizing adventure levels to do EXACTLY the same thing you feel is so heinous in Kunark, using adventure levels to advance your crafting character, and furthermore saw no unfairness at that time by doing so.
You are a hypocrit driven solely by the quality of the Kunark items, not by the percieved unfairness. Prior expansions and city faction itself have always been far more slanted to the adventure crafter, but, you don't have an issue with that apparently. If you are going to make a stand on principal, that stand has to be consistant, and yours is not.
You defeat your own argument with inconsistancy.
Nice work.
And, thank you Rijacki, comments from a crafter of your stature in this community gives me pause on earlier comment regarding this community. I have a high regard for your input.

Rijacki wrote:

Do you think the crafting and the adventuring path should both lead to max faction with all rewards, crafting or adventuring, open to any who choose to level that faction either way?

Rijacki wrote:

If you honestly believe that crafter A getting those recipes for humping 279 writs has been given an equitable option when other crafters have gotten those recipes for doing zero writs, I really do not know what to tell you.
They did not provide different paths to the same reward. They gave the crafters ONLY reward to people who happened to do the adventure quest lines. As has been pointed out, doing the adventure quest lines was a no brainer. They were replete with adventuring rewards all by themselves and they were the easiest and in fact, most viable path to raise your adventuring levels in the process.
The Maj'dul situation which you feel compellled to bring up was an entirely different animal. Could crarfters get their Maj'dul advanced books without stepping one foot in Maj'dul? Yes, they could. Could adventurer/crafters get their Maj'dul advanced books without stepping one foot in Maj'dul? Yes, they could. No one was required to work Maj'dul faction to get advanced books.
So the whole premise of you bringing Maj'dul into this discussion has just evaporated. If you would like to try another justification for the inequity of RoK I would be happy to hear it.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Yes.

Lasai wrote:

Just wow. Is about all I can say. Point out my inconsistencies since you level that accusation. I've seen a whole bunch of approaches taken trying to justify this boon adventurer/crafters received in RoK. Each time I shoot one down you guys dream up another one. Latest lame attempt is the Maj'dul card which is so far afield of the discussion that I think you may be finally running out of excuses. Keep on trying though, it is great for entertainment value if nothing else.

Qandor wrote:

My point about Maj'dul was only that there is a non-adventure way to gain faction in RoK, a way for a crafter to obtain the recipes solely from crafting and without obtaining anything from an adventurer.

So, is there a way with DoF that a crafter can obtain the advanced and ancient scroll recipes or gain faction with Maj'dul without obtaining anything from an adventurer?

Your whole arguement as to why Maj'dul should be discounted is, in your words, evaporated. If you would like to try another explanation on how crafters do not have the option to gain faction in RoK without any assistance from or without any adventuring on their own, I would be, as you said, happy to hear it.

One small edit: my 80 adventurer is a 62 tailor and has no option to do the writs in RoK because I chose to adventure with her in order to be able to raid with her. Rijacki is 71/71 and I haven't had a great deal of enthusiasm for playing her in a mostly solo environment (yes, she is in a guild, but, due to myself, I don't really have much of a connection with them.. and the people I used to play with on that server are mostly absent). My other crafters and/or adventurers are far far from being able to do anything in RoK.. well.. I could with my former raid main, my dirge, but I don't really have a burning desire to level her at this time.

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Do not get sucked into that black hole. The ardent defenders of of the RoK perk want you to. They know full well, that a crafter gaining 50k faction will do absolutely nothing for you as a crafter and retain the advantage they currently enjoy in RoK. They recieved their RoK faction crafting recipes for doing nothing crafting wise and wish it to stay that way in the future.

Qandor wrote:

Ya know what. You have your own opinion and you're convinced no other opinion at all is valid and, well, that's your option, too.

I'm sorry I let myself get sucked into the "black hole" of trying to present another view point because, frankly, you don't want to hear anything but your own voice.

So.

I disagree with you. My opinion (and the opinion of a lot of other players) is not the same as yours and that's our option, too.

Frankly, in the end, the only opinion which really matters is the decisions of the designers and developers.

Rijacki wrote:

In the end that is exactly what it is all about, our opinions. SOE will do what they are going to do. I have taken up the banner of the non-adventuring crafter here since I feel they received the shortend of the stick in RoK. We cannot undo what has already been done. Each of us can only hope our feedback is taken into consideration in the future. I've taken the time to make my case as best I could. We will see what happens come next expansion.
You are correct that it is impossible to change my opinion on this matter. That does not make my opinion any less valid.

edited to remove double post.

Qandor wrote:

You're wrong, because an adventurer/crafter who chooses a crafting path would gain the advantage of adventuring rewards with a single faction system that had two paths to gaining the faction. I believe this is the only fair implementation of a single faction system, that both paths lead to max faction and there are no cutoffs.

However, I can see where this sort of system would be cause for concern. The leanings of popular opinion seem to be that crafting should be secondary to adventuring. It is believed that crafted gear should not be able to compare to something that is dropped, and even by some that crafting progression should be tied increasingly to adventuring.

I think a single faction system that allows crafters to craft their way to adventuring rewards would cause some uncomfortable questions to be asked on why this sort of status quo was maintained afterward, however. I wouldn't mind seeing these questions come up, but I can imagine that because of this viewpoint of crafting as secondary, there would be quite an uproar over the implementation.

As I also mentioned before, I have concerns that if the crafting effort is taken out of earning crafting rewards, then those rewards might suffer as they are not perceived to take as much "effort" as adventuring, also another symptom of the viewpoint of crafting seen as secondary in the game.