Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Please pardon me for not reading through 15 pages....

But I agree with Rijacki, I think. Is it any more "fair" to make adventurers having to grind faction twice...? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Do anyone here like faction grinding? I certainly don't. So why are we discussing how to punish people in a computer game? Isn't this supposed to be fun?

I think it would be better to leave things as they are. Having to grind a faction once should be enough, and let people choose if they want to increase their faction through adventuring or crafting. I realize that pure crafters don't get that choice, but maybe it is possible a way to make their grinding feel a little quicker and maybe a little more rewarding in the next expansion than it was in RoK?

Remember that if a "pure crafter" decides to level up later, he or she will have "a free pass" into Fens and Danak (which are usually aggro), and will also be allowed to buy faction gear off those factions without having to work for it a second time! Oh my goodness, isn't that horrible? As a high level adventurer, I have zero issues with that. They did the work when they did the crafting writs, and that is good enough.

Amphibia wrote:

Very well said. A player is gaining favor with a city, not a defined trades or adventure society in Kunark. Once you have proven your worth and become a friend to them, by any means, it should not go away when you put on a different hat. You are still the person that earned that friendship. It makes no sense to split characters into two parts.
Lasai Bilof-Assassin ? oh yes, proven friend of Danak, look at her record. Lasai Bilof-Woodworker.. hmm, never heard of her, better put her to the loyalty grind. Makes zero sense to me.
At the end of the day I'm just Lasai Bilof...Assassin/Woodworker, friend of Danak. How exactly I got there should be of little consequence. I certainly don't care how others do it, craft or adventure, they proved thier friendship and reaped the benefits.

Amphibia wrote:

The game designers logic for making the cutoff for crafting writs is 30K because they wanted players to have to do some adventuring with a character in order to get the adventure rewards (which might be part of why there is ire from some that no crafting is required for... whatever).

If it had been possible to go to max ally through crafting, what would have been the effect?

A. So-called "pure" crafter is a less than 20 in adventuring but at 70 when RoK launches.
- He is able to do the crafter sokokar quest to get the ability to travel.
- He is able to do a crafting-related quest to get him minimal non-KoS to 2 factions in Fens even though there are a lot more deadly things than those two factions.
- After leveling up crafting a bit, he is able to do a crafting-related quest to get minimal non-KoS in Jarseth Wastes with just one faction and there are a lot more deadly things around than that faction.
- He does writs (and it would have been nice to have other non-adventure quests or the non-combat quests open to him) until he's blue and get max ally.
- He can buy the faction -adventure- gear which he can't equip at all because it requires his adventure level be.. umm.. somewhat higher than it is. Heck, that gear might even encourage him to adventure.

B. The so-called "hybrid" crafter who has a crafting an adventuring level somewhat close to each other (maybe one is a small bit higher than the other) for arguement's sake, 70 in crafting and 60 in adventuring.
- He is unable to do the crafter sokokar quest to get the ability to travel .
- He is able to do a crafting-related quest to get him minimal non-KoS to 2 factions in Fens even though there are a lot more deadly things than those two factions.
- After leveling up crafting a bit, he is able to do a crafting-related quest to get minimal non-KoS in Jarseth Wastes with just one faction and there are a lot more deadly things around than that faction.
- He does writs (and it would have been nice to have other non-adventure quests or the non-combat quests open to him) until he's blue and get max ally.
- He can buy the faction -adventure- gear which he can't equip at all because it requires his adventure level be.. umm.. a little higher than it is.
- He starts doing adventure quests in RoK and, when he gets high enough to equip them, can wear the gear he bought from gaining faction by crafting. That gear gives him a small boost from that point forward.

Hmm.... really there was no reason, in my opinion, to throttle the max from crafting to 30K.

Here's my view on this, take it however you want:
I have more than one lvl 80 adventure level character with which I am just now starting to craft with. Not to get the faction stuff which I didn't even know existed when I started crafting. I finally got tired of trying to find people to make stuff for me. So then I hear about the faction stuff and I'm like ok fine I have enough faction with most to get what I need, that's cool.
But I also have a lvl 17 crafter (I'm working on 5 crafters at the same time, someone shoot me). When I heard about the faction recipes I was like, well darnit how the hell am I supposed to get that stuff? I don't want to adventure with this char, that sucks! And then I heard about ... crafting faction writs. SWEET! Ok, all I have to do are writs, ok a lot of writs, but writs are easy! Yeah sometimes they can get mindless but wtf they are easy! What the hell do I need the adventure rewards on this char for, she's lvl freaking 17 who cares about that? She'll never use the stuff.
So, yay for crafting faction writs! Yay I can get faction with a low adventurer/high crafter! Yay its more than the 150 faction per rush order you get with your crafting society!
/dance
The End
Ele~

DominoDev wrote:

So, why are you all still arguing about this?

Separate adventure factions and tradeskill factions are what we have in all the cities currently. So, really, why should the Kunark factions be any different?

It has been stated by the developer that the way these things are handled in the future will be different, which, would indicate that the folks at SOE have decided that the implementation didn't work the way they wanted it to.

How about we all refocus on energies onto getting something else that is bugged or broken in the game corrected? If you all have this much focus for this then I am sure there are other things that could really be helped by turning that focus onto them.

Qandor wrote:

It is amazing how bad people are at making relevant analogies. Faction in this game is a gauge of your reputation. If you win the Super Bowl, you get the same reputation as you do winning the World Series, within the appropriate circles. About the only thing even remotely related to either ring would be the epic quests... you can't get any weapon you want unless you earn it within that class (or sport in your twisted analogy).

Rijacki wrote:

Uh...I may be remembering wrong, but I thought a L70 crafter could get the crafting based sokokar quest as long as their adventure level wasn't L70?

Gorhauth wrote:

Ya, the earn it part is what you are missing in regard to adventurer/crafters for crafting recipes in RoK. Killing chickens gives you crafting recipes. I guess the analogy just went over your head. You miss the entire point of this whole thread. The issue is not that adventurer/crafters did anything wrong in obtaining these recipes in RoK since the rules were set up that way. The point is the rules should NOT have been set up that way. It trivializes the crafting sphere. We had a two for one sale in RoK. Here's hoping that it will be different in the future. Those who are not afraid of work will pursue both goals. Those who are afraid of effort will have to settle for one.

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

65 is the cutoff, no higher than 65 adventurer. And I originally was going to do 70/70. I thought I edited the next line...

Qandor wrote:

So what you are saying is you have no clue what reputation means.

Gorhauth wrote:

No, what I am saying is you have no clue what good gameplay and support for the two spheres we have means.
Now if you want to just keep tossing barbs I am more than happy to toss them back. If you have something to say regarding your take on the matter, feel free to do so. I've supported my position as best I could. If you have a position, lay it out there for everyone to see. I do not think anyone cares whether you particulary like me or not. I know I certainly could not care less.

Qandor wrote:

You could have supported a position and had an opinion throughout this thread regarding the game mechanics.
Instead, you chose to mischaracterize and constantly allude to the personal character of anyone who disagrees. "Free Ride" "Done Squat" "Afraid of effort" "Unearned Perk" "Unearned Rewards" "Killing Chickens for craft rewards" and more, every statement, ad nauseum from the first response to the last. Nearly every reply had to include one of your thinly veiled barbs and insults.
A good position can be supported on its own merits without resorting the the cheap e-thuggery of constantly casting aspersions and belittling those who disagree.
If you think you are unliked, you well earned it by constant attacks on the motivation and character of players you don't even know, and only you incited the level of vitriol directed at you.
Just as in the weapons thread. you could have stated your belief that lower tier crafting be the realm of those crafters. No, your first comment labeled someone selling goods to lower tiers as a "Bottom Feeder".
You elicit the response you get.

Lasai wrote:

I did support my position. Let's see some of your "good' position being supported in this thread and the other thread that was locked. A few of your more noteworthy quotes:
"The singular reason this issue even came up was the quality of the items offered, and the hateful envy displayed by people who were NOT denied the faction, only given a slower path."
"The sour grape smell is overwhelming. Really, you do need a break."
"Again I have to make a guess that your unfairness crusade is driven more by missed profit opportunity and jealousy than any other motive, and explains the anger."
BTW, I got server discos on All three Woodworker chromatic recipes thanks to what you term my "free ride". Hope that salts the wound of your self rightious indignance a bit.
Pot meet kettle.

Hey guys...please...

Y'all are going to get this thread locked too if you keep at each other.

Svetlanavera@Nagafen wrote:

Actually, No, its not what we have. Freeport Faction is a separate entitity. So is that of Kelethin, Gorowynn, Neriak, and Qeynos. City faction is independant of the craft and adventure society faction. MajDul has no city faction, only that of the courts.
Factioning with a city gains you access to amenities, including brokers. That includes brokers who sell only craft related items in our current cities, vendors a pure crafter could not access without adventuring. A betraying crafter has two grinds to do, the adventure grind to gain city faction, and then the Craft society grind to gain that faction.
It has been in the game since day one. Pure crafters who betrayed had no choice but to use adventure content to gain City Faction. They could not buy fuel nor recipes without gaining the right to by adventuring. Pure crafters wishing to buy MajDul advanced recipes had no path to do so, except by buying adventure provided items.
Kunark Faction was not a mistake, it was a vast improvement. It finally allowed a crafting path.
This basic misunderstanding of what general City type faction is has not helped this discussion one bit. Compare Apples to Apples please.

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

Yah, I made those out of line comments what.. after ten plus pages of Adventure crafters being slammed. I didn't even post to this thread until someone felt the need to spread the "love" to other threads. At each other.. um he is "AT" every crafter that gained faction in Kunark with adventure levels.
I don't deny flying off the handle. I also point out that it was far from unprovoked. His intial and continuing diatribe and labeling of Adventure crafters was entirely unprovoked by anyone, and it never stopped, and it got blasted at anyone disagreeing with his premise, not just me.
I'll also point out that my posts addressed to other people on this thread do not contain heated commentary, and also point out that his responses to anyone disagreeing with him generally contained the same thinly veiled insults he opened the thread with. Case in point Rijacki was as pleasant as always and got this anyway ......"I'm not surprised anymore by some of the justifications fabricated for the free ride adventurer/crafters received in Kunark."..... for politely stating her opinion. The thread is full of this. She took the high road and left the discussion, and that isn't the way to make a valid point, not by bullying and insulting each and every person you disagree with regardless of thier demeanor or wording.
Perhaps this thread needs to be locked. He is running out of original ways to call us names.
I've certainly reported it enough times.

Lasai wrote:

Well, no surprise there. Hope you reported yourself as well. You would like to see it locked, that is obvious. You undoubtedly would like the issue out of the public eye. Oh, and thanks for taking another shot at me, you of the oh so high moral ground. Hypocrite comes to mind.
Since undoubtedly it will get locked, I'll take this last opportunity to state my position one last time.
There has to be a large degree of seperation kept between crafting and adventuring. They are two individual spheres. People were encouraged to work which ever sphere they cared to. Some decided to take on double the workload and work both. For those who decided to only do one on a particular character or emphasize only one on that character they have to have the assurance that they are competing fairly against others who are working that sphere. In other words, equal work for equal pay.
If you have done both on a single character, you have entered into that fully aware that you have assumed twice the workload. You cannot, at some later date, expect to bypass one of those spheres to achieve rewards inherent to that sphere. Kunark provided a mechanism to do just that and was a mistake. Recipes, for all intents and purposes are the only rewards crafter have. They do not use gear, they do not group, they do not raid. You just cannot hand the crafters only reward to adventurer/crafters for adventuring only.
If you want both you work for both and if you only want one, you work for only that one. You should not get the rewards of both spheres only working one side.

/sigh

Look, all I wanted to do was give a cautionary word about things getting too out of hand, that's all.

There's already been monderators warning and one thread was locked down.

This is a very heated issue.

We all have views on it.

We all want to be heard and understood.

For myself, I'm trying to not really stand in any one camp. I have six crafters (actually retired adventure toons) and two hybrids. I see this from both sides and understand both sides. And I really don't want to have to pick one.

And my problems with the RoK faction for crafters isn't really that hybrids are able to gain recipes faster than crafters who slog writs.

My problem is in the faction. The inconsistency of the faction the introductory quests give.

2,400 for Teren's Grasp with quests that had crafting (arrows, chest, chain cutters for freeing Lynchpin) and delivery (releasing the hawk, flying up to Teren's).

250 for New Lands. Flying to Kunzar's Edge, running to Fens of Nathsar zone, dodging Bathezid aggro up the trail, dodging Bathezid and Riliss and mob aggro thru and around Swamp of No Hope. At least we received the Kunzar post without having to run all the way there, which I expected to do. Strictly delivery, no crafting.

250 for Higher Risks. Flying to Highton (another freebie post), then running thru aggro to the Fens post and then thru more aggro to the Jarsath Wastes zone. Still more aggro from Sel'Nok and Danak and mobs as you get to the contact, find the scout, feed the scout, and run all the way back to Teren's. Then dodge aggro on the way to Danak while finding Howling Stones post. A bit of delivery, one bit of crafting.

It doesn't make sense. Why the inconsistency?

It's a rhetorical question now...it's set in stone and nothing will change.

And to be honest, I'm rather twitching about mentioning the above due to the danger of the faction for Teren's being nerfed down to the same 250 faction of the other two quests. But I had to say something...this has just been not sitting right with me.

The only reason I can come up with as to why on the 2,400 with Teren's is to allow crafters access into the bank...but I'll note that 2,400 isn't enough for broker access.

Meh, I've had enough for now...I'm fully expecting this thread to be locked soon.

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

You were well intentioned that is obvious and we are in much the same situation. I have two 80/80 toons as well.
I think the bigger discrepency regarding faction is the Danak quest line. First adventurer quest 31,000 Danak faction. First crafter quest 250 Danak faction. Not sure why there is the 2400/250 discrepency regarding the others. Haven't dwelled on those inconsistencies since they are not my main focus.

Its 16 pages long now. I'm not going to look back, but I'd dare to say that other than Peep's last post there probably isn't anything new being said.
People have stated their opinions on this topic. Unless you feel that you didn't express yourself well, or that you have something to add or disagree with something new being said here your just agravating someone else here.
There isn't any reason to defend your position at this point. If you've already posted (like I did say 14-15 pages ago) then your done. Let it go. Its been said. Thank you for your contribution. You don't need to turn this ugly, even if some other people feel some moral justification in doing so.
Thank you for showing that you care deeply about crafting. So does everybody else here.
(even if they are wrong )