Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Qandor, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-Qandor Guest

    I'm sure this will be very unpopular with some but it has to be said. First of all, lets get the usual barbs out of the way. This has nothing to do with wanting easy mode, not by a long shot, but as you will see, in a way, easy mode for a segment of the population is exactly what we have.
    Some background. I have 9 level 80 crafters. Two of those crafters happen to be level 80 adventurers as well.
    Looking at the adventure side, the obvious easiest way to level from 70 to 80 in RoK was to follow the faction questlines which most adventurers did follow. Along the way to 80 they received numerous cash and gear rewards, including many of them of legendary, as well as nice experience on their road to 80. Following all those questilines, easily got them to 80 or darn close and also gave them high faction, in some cases 50k, with the key RoK factions. You could not help, but have 50k with Danak and Rillis for example, but perhaps you would be more like 30k with Bathezid.
    As an extra added bonus, for doing absolutely nothing, they now also have the faction to start their epic cloak and have access to all the extra recipe goodies which are soon to be added.
    Meanwhile, a pure crafter of low adventure level has to slog through some 280 writs to get the same recipes that were granted to high level adventure/crafters for free.
    So what is wrong with this picture? Cetainly nothing wrong with crafters having to earn faction with these 3 organizations in order to gain the recipes. That is fine. What is not fine, is granting these same recipes to high level adventures when they have done nothing to earn them.
    Too late now to change this of course. However, I would suggest in the future, were the situation to repeat itself, that crafting faction and adventure faction should be seperate entities. If you want the recipes, you earn them just like all other crafters have to earn them. Then the playing field is level. Right now it is far from level. As it stands now, this is just too much of a bonus to be granted for happening to have an adventurer and crafter on the same toon and as I stated earlier, I have two characters who will benefit from this freebie.
  2. ARCHIVED-Jehannum Guest

    I agree with you that the adventuring and crafting factions should have been divorced one from the other - I'd also stipulate that each line should include a minor amount of faction boosting for the other, but more a flavour (perhaps 1k for each faction stage beyond -40k) than a real benefit.
    One slight correction on the numbers too - I've finished all the Bathezid adventuring quests and a handful of writs and am just over 27k faction (though I've also killed a few of them) - adventuring quests thus appear to provide enough to reach roughly +25k total, so a maxed adventurer/crafter still does need to hit 7 or 8 crafting writs too, to get the 30k GU43 rewards.
    Hopefully with the feedback from this faction effort, the next one will be as granular and differentiated as this one, in hindsight, should probably have been.
  3. ARCHIVED-Cadori Seraphim Guest

    Jehannum wrote:
    Not sure why you are behind in the faction there unless you killed WAY too many of them but on my adventure (two of them) characters I am max 50k ally with all 3 factions just from doing the quests.

    I dont see how anyone else is having issues with this.
  4. ARCHIVED-Valdaglerion Guest

    Sorry but as another with a crafting army I am going to disagree with you on this. Rok has been awesome for crafters:

    • At level 65 crafter or adventurer you can use your skills to get a sokokar
    • Crafters grind writs to get faction with the same groups adventurers have to complete quests for - all in all, the time is about the same really
    • AA mirror: you have to have faction and crafting skill to acquire and make the mirror. Yes, adventurers are needed to get the shard but then they are dependent on a good crafter to actually turn it into something useful for them. A pure crafter has no need of the mirror so it is purely a money maker recipe for them
    • Additional recipes coming out for things adventurers need but most likely wont be able to do for themselves due to the faction requirements
    My personal favorite:

    The tradeskill epic quest line. Consider for a moment, the Earring of Soltice and movement speed in the game. In order to do the TS Epic you must be a level 80 crafter, no adventuring needed, did it with a level 2 adventurer which was a blast BTW. Hmmm...so the level 80 adventurer that is not a crafter must buy a mount, at the very least they need to go do the Warg quest in loping plains which they can do until level 60'ish I think now and it still cost about 4-5p in the end to buy a warg which moves at 45% BUT WAIT - the warg doesnt work in dungeons, does the earring...yep. The warg, at last I checked doesnt stack with jboots or racials (its the greatest speed combination - mount/all others) but the earring does.

    My point being, there have been some really big boons to crafters in this expansion and while I may not always see eye to eye with Domino on everything, she has done an amazing job in this expansion and quite honestly, shame on you for saying this expansion was unfair to crafters when it has been a huge equalizer in many ways. If you are truly a pure crafter you would be elated that grinding writs, the large majority of a pure crafters time spent anyway, is now valuable in many other facets of gameplay because those factions mean something.

    /rant off
  5. ARCHIVED-ShallaBal Guest

    I am thankful that someone is actually taking sides for pure crafters. (I am brig 12 / WS 80)
    Just thinking about the amount of writs I would have to do to get all those new weaponsmith recipes makes me shudder. If I start at -50k with Riliss and Danak and am currently at -19k for Bathezid (from epic) I am looking at give or take an additional 280 writs (in a PvP environment, mind you). With max 10 writs per hour (focused and uninterrupted) that's a significant amount of time doing very repetitive work.
    I might go for the Bathezid recipes, but I can't really see me doing the other factions, too.
    Anyway, it's my decision after all to play on Nagafen and also to not go adventuring, so I guess I don't have good arguments here. ;)
  6. ARCHIVED-Valdaglerion Guest

    Sidori@Crushbone wrote:
    Not sure what quests you did Sidori but I have yet to run across anyone else who was able to max ally Bathezids on adventure quest alone. I have done every single quest in Fens on my main and got to around 24k in faction with Bathezids. With Riliss I have enough quests to get to around 95-110k in faction if it hadnt stopped at 50k. Danak was easily obtained through adventure quests as well.
  7. ARCHIVED-Jehannum Guest

    I find myself wondering whether some of the early-on quests I did have had their faction hits increased or something...
    I hadn't quested in the Fens for ages since launch, and the other day finally finished up Sneuchi and the rilissian lieutenants for a combined +15k hit; took me from just over +10k where I'd writted myself (to be able to buy the provi books) to the 27k I have now. I'll still need another 4 writs to get the +30k threshold, because I have no further quest or writ opportunities other than for crafting now.
    Sidori, did you do those adventure quests within the first few days of launch, or were those completed later for you? (mine were like day 3 or 4 I think)
  8. ARCHIVED-cdxrd Guest

    Im going to have to agree with the OP.. I have an 75'ish templar, I have 50k faction with riliss, and one or 2 others.. An adventurer can get a group and blow through a questline in absolutely no time.. Easily gaining faction in as short a time as 1 or 2 play sessions.
    However, on my poor level 80 crafters, its a nightmare. They dont adventure, their highest adv level is like 23.. My provisioner has -19k from Bathezid due to the epic. To get 50k or even 30k with them? Holy! Thats a looooot of writs to sit and grind. Not to mention, its the same thing.. over and over.. and over and over.. and over and over..
    You know, why cant their be some other simple ways for pure tradeskillers to gain faction? I mean how hard would it be to do 2-3 normal tradeskill writs, then you go to get another, and oh! whats this?! Your want me to run and deliver these items I just made to joe blow down in terens grasp? for 1000 or 1500 faction? well hell yea!
    A simple delivery quest or something similiar tossed in every 2 or 3 writs would really break up some of the monotony(sp?) and could really give the crafters more of a feeling of Im making these items.. they really do have a purpose for making me grind.. it would actually help to give more a sense of usefulness or purpose to the world.
    Right now, crafters get the really bad end of the deal, while adventurers make out like bandits..
  9. ARCHIVED-Domino Guest

    Qandor wrote:
    This is a valid comment and definitely something that I plan to do in the future. The current implementation does seem to give more of a boost to adventurer-crafters than expected and lessons learned from RoK will be taken into account in the future.

    Also, adding more different faction quests for Kunark in the future is not out of the question, but however (as I'm sure the weaponsmiths and others will tell you) there are other things that should be done first and unfortunately there is limited time in the day/week/month, so I don't know whether this will realistically be possible any time soon considering everything else that also needs doing soon.
  10. ARCHIVED-Drash Guest

    DominoDev wrote:
    Thank you ever so much for this acknowledgement.
  11. ARCHIVED-Valdaglerion Guest

    DominoDev wrote:
    Sorry but I disagree with the validity of the comment to begin with. Currently there are 2 means to same end. You can adventure or grind crafting writs to earn faction with these groups.

    At certain faction levels they sell recipes for crafting. Those recipes are No-Trade so only the person buying them could use them anyway and the recipes have crafting requirements for scribing and using them. So a hybrid player that is 80/80 but decided to gain their faction through adventuring is now going to be dinged and forced to re-earn faction through crafting before they can buy the recipes? I certainly hope not. I can already hear the uproar on that one considering how many people are crying already about grinding out certain faction groups.

    More over if you ding the pure adventure types by dropping their faction boosts they are going to scream bloody murder. Killing mobs for writ grinding can get you killed. When is the last time you got killed at a work station. Risk versus reward.
  12. ARCHIVED-Cadori Seraphim Guest

    Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:
    I have to agree with Artemiz on this one.

    I consider having an 80 tradeskiller that is also an 80 adventurer a bonus. I worked hard for both that tradeskill lvl and adventure lvl.. I should be able to attain the faction either way. Tradeskilling, regardless of how many people whine about it, will always be linked to adventure lvl because its adventures who are wanting the stuff tradeskillers make.

    What needs to happen instead of a complete change next time, is perhaps more faction per writ on the part of tradeskillers. I dont think its that hard of a change to impliment now and in the future.
  13. ARCHIVED-Powers Guest

    I also must agree with the previous two posters.

    If one chooses to have a pure crafter, or even a majority-crafting character, one should expect things to be a bit harder. Perhaps not to the level seen here, but I don't think "separate factions" is the way to go either.

    The OP wrote: "As it stands now, this is just too much of a bonus to be granted for happening to have an adventurer and crafter on the same toon"

    Am I the only one who creates a *whole* character anymore? This phrasing makes the OP sound schizophrenic: two people in one body! The situation is not "an adventurer and crafter on the same toon" but rather "one character who both adventures and crafts." Why shouldn't that one character benefit from both aspects of his/her personality? Why should the character have to grind the same faction *twice*, even if it is by different methods (crafting vs. adventuring)?

    Powers &8^]
  14. ARCHIVED-einar438 Guest

    I'm an 80 adventurer and 80 tradeskiller, but I see the issue.
    I think the point is that while the adventurer can do quests at 5000-10000 a pop, the crafter is stuck with basically writs for a fraction of that, and they have the added issue of running around the zones to harvest with agro mobs basically packed shoulder to shoulder, some of whom have a very wide agro radius and have stun/knockdown/snare/root attacks.
    For the pure tradeskiller, the risk when harvesting is actually pretty high, even more so since the pure tradeskiller may not be equipped to deal with agro and end up getting one-shotted. Since gouging is pretty prevalent, buying the needed raws off the broker isn't much of an option. Yet for all this, they are kind of stuck with the slow and tedious grind even though the risk is pretty much the same.
  15. ARCHIVED-Cadori Seraphim Guest

    Powers wrote:
    Exactly!! Thank you! You put that into words better then I did :)
  16. ARCHIVED-Elorah Guest

    Aye. sadly, I have to agree. I think it is great for people that have both a high adventurer and a high crafter. I have 7 crafters. 6 if them are 77+. The thought of doing 27 writs each for the Crafting EPic makes me ill, nevermind grinding 100+ each for the faction recipe's.

    My highest adventurer is only 70 :(
  17. ARCHIVED-Quda Guest

    So lets look into fixing it next expansion.
    2 Factions per city, 1 for city(adventure) and 1 for Tradeskill(craft)
    So if you have a 80/80, you can do both if you wish.
    If you are a low level with 80 crafter you can work on your tradeskill faction
    If you are a 80 with a low level crafter you can work on your city faction.

    But if you want both factions, you have to do both. No shortcuts!
    If you want the rewards for crafting, you have to craft.
    If you want the rewards for adventuring you have to adventure.

    BUT, here is the kicker, the higher you are at level, meaning if your 80, your writs will be worth more in faction. Reducing the amount of writs you have to grind on.
    After all you are proven to know how to craft if your 80, maybe grandmaster, so you will be given the more complex writs that are worth more.

    If your a low crafter, you will most likely be filling the supply shelfs, but if your a grandmaster (80 crafter), you will be working for the high officals, the cream of the crop who will be more influencial. After all the Lord of the city will not want just anyone to craft something for his queen.
  18. ARCHIVED-Cadori Seraphim Guest

    Quda wrote:
    I don't agree with this at all. Punishing people who choose to play both aspects of the game is lame.
  19. ARCHIVED-Valdaglerion Guest

    Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:
    Point taken but at the end of the day crafters dont have to harvest do they? They have the option of purchasing the goods; price irrespective they have the option. An adventurer does not have the option of having someone else do the quest for them, or go kill X mobs for themto earn faction, period. They must take the risk themself. It all comes down to risk versus reward.

    So yes, while out killing mobs and potentially risking greater death because you are charged with engaging these mobs and not trying to avoid them you should make significantly larger strides in faction than those sitting in the safety of the crafting dens where death can be avoided quite easily.

    As for prices of materials on the brokers - I have always been able to do rush orders and buy all my materials on the broker and still make a little coin so not buying that one either, sorry.

    As for harvesting in Rok - I have done it with a low level bruiser, scout, illy just to see what the node paths and spawns were like away from aggro, it can be done quite easily actually. You arent going to fill your bags in a couple of hours but I would hope you wwouldnt expect to either. The greater risk you are willing to accept or the more equipped and skilled you are at handling higher level mobs the greater the rewards for harvesting, period.
  20. ARCHIVED-denmom Guest

    Sidori@Crushbone wrote:
    Did you do the repeatable scout mission for Bathezid?

    Before that was put in, you made it to about 20-23k from doing the quest series with Bathezid. After that you had to grind fishmen or kill lots of iksar, but that would blow your Riliss faction if you killed too many.

    Now it's been awhile since I've run thru Fens. Have they changed the series so that you do gain ally faction by doing all the Bathezid quests?

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