TSO Berserker Issue List (updated april-3-2009)

updated the list to reflect changes going live with Gu51
if im missing anything or need to take something out let me know.

Might want to put that stuff in Test feedback rather than here, since it's still subject to change.
Insolence is already usable again in Offensive stance, or was earlier today. Mock too.
I don't consider the 8% CA increase a problem at all. That alone should be a ~3% increase in my DPS while in Offensive Stance over live. Not huuuuuge, but it's an increase.
Not sure if the recast will make it Live or not, but I don't see that as a big deal either. Today if I need to oh-crap-MT-died grab a mob while DW-ing and in O-stance, I already consider popping Adrenaline a higher priority than switching to my defensive stance. Can still shed O-stance, pop adrenaline, and grab the mob just as before, it will just be slightly longer - SLIGHTLY - before I get into D-stance.

Kurgan do your math again and make sure your only looking at your CA's... not any procs your doing.
3% increase is about tripple what i expect.

Victer@Oasis wrote:

Did have a few extra things included that shouldn't have been, but I still get 2.6% ... BUT ... that's flawed. I was forgetting that the 8% increase is only applying when you are Berserk. I've never really gauged how much of the time that's up since there's no way to measure, but yeah probably 1.3% or so tops.

I think Aerliak said something like the off stance will now just set taunt values to 0 instead of making them not usable. That should fix those off stance problems.The recast time seems to be supposed to stop you from going to def stance, spam all taunts and then going back in off stance. No idea why they are wasting so much time on making sure tank DPS sucks...
I agree with the CA dmg bonus, with our weak CAs it's not worth much. A bonus to max crit would be cool.
And the def stance... No idea where to start to say what sucks most. The changes are supposed to make tanks less dependent on other classes, but with the skill penalty on the def stance tanking orange mobs is almost impossible without a Warden's melee skill buff. Hitting the mob less often also means triggering less often Beserk and that means less time Adrenaline working. So tanking in the def stance lowers our survivability...
And this entire AE/single target tank idea is completely half-baked. The 3 offensive fighters become (are) multi target tanks, the defensive single target. Raids are almost exclusiveley made of single target encounters, so the defensive tanks not only have better survivability, but on top of that they are made better at single target hate. They are hit less hard by the DPS penalties and get better taunts at the same time thus making any raid leader chosing a none single target as MT/OT an idiot. The "AE" tank has to work harder for his hate and pay more power for it (not including Adrenaline), the raid DDs have to do more detaunting and the healer have to heal the AE tank more. Awesome game design.
The only job of the AE tanks is probably to fill raid spots of missing DDs and to tank the trash mobs on all the AE fights (so far I have seen one encounter with multi encounter adds, Xebnok, and a Warlock could tank these as well).

Forgot: Aggression now actually helps taunts hitting to mob. Awesome if you are a Guard and have 32 on your stance. Bad luck if you are a Beserkern, then you only have 16...

Medium Priority
Set Bonus VP (4 pieces) TSO (2 pieces) is slightly to low
: Defstance skill penalty is - 20 , Sebonus ist only 15-16
bonus should be raised to somewhat around 25 ~ 5 level skills

Most of the High Priority things on your list have been addressed now, but if things stay as they are on Test they really need to increase our base taunt values and/or Aggression. Not just because we're The Agressor [sic], but because we have sooooooooo much less than everyone else.
I'm fine with being the lowest ST hate tank .... but not by 25-35%!
And if we're AE tanks, we should have more vs. AE in comparison to Guards/Paladins instead of having essentially the same on 3-4 targets, which makes up the vast majority of AE encounters.
It's sort of a complete flip-flop of how things are on Live where we have essentially the same on ST and they have a lot less on AE.

What is the "variance", anyone playing on test can tell?



Berserker

• Reduced the variance of the Whirl and Barrage lines.

cr0wangel wrote:

It has a tighter range fro top to bottom, but most of the change is the lowering of the top end.
Intrusion goes from 1483-2624 on Live to 1116-1674 on Test. 32% overall reduction, 36% reduction to the top end.

Bloodshower goes from 742-2063 on Live to 653-1214 on Test. 33% overall reduction, 70% reduction to the top end.
You can read all about our woes on Test here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=442287
Frankly I wish more Berserkers would post there instead of calling for SK nerfs and embarrassing our class as a whole.
If you think there's a huge gap between Berserkers and SKs on Live (and maybe there is at the end-game, but in early TSO raiding I don't see it on Live) ... it's going to get a crapload larger with what's on Test. Being made responsible for our own hate on Test, and we're supposed to be taunting to earn it, but with all Master 1s we'll be able to generate roughly as much threat from taunts as an SK with all Adept 1s.
My Monk, with largely MC gear and an Apprentice 1 ST taunt and 120 AA, can generate more TPS via taunts against a single target than my Mythical Berserker with RoK & early TSO raid gear and 193 AA.
Since they backed out the proc changes, our DPS in defensive stance drops substantially more than that of either Crusader as well. So we're certainly not going to make up any ground THAT way. Yet someone felt it was necessary to nerf two blue AoEs that never amount to a hill of beans as it is.
Yet some of us remain fixated on how much DPS SK's can do on Live. /shrug

SKs should really be our least concern. The main problem is that these whole changes aim at making Beserkers only usefull tanks for the 2 or 3 raid encounters each expansion has where there are multi mobs (last expansion the books in front of Druushk and the trash adds from the Overking, this expansion the multi encounter in front of Mynzak and the trash adds from Xebnok) and for every other encounter they suck. This revamp round tries to ensure that Berserkers won't be doing good DPS when tanking and they'll generate less threat than any tank on all those single target raid mobs. While the first round ensured that they won't excel at defense. I was never a fan of this plate scout attitude some people have. These people will still be happy after the changes, they get even an awesome 5 % base damage boost to CAs that will increase their DPS by at least 50. But what about Beserkers who want to tank? Beserkers used to sacrifice some defense for more offensive. And now SOE just says "Offense is not your job, it's hate gain, bad luck" and take the offense away, don't give us more hate gain for the loss and leave the defense inferior. And they actually believe this is balance.

i consider the isse to be 2 halves, the other is as you say and i've been saying for a while now since all of our offensive properties continue to diminish and our defensive ones have stiff penalties or costs to get.

i dont know what else i can do to get the word out there.
They may look over the issues but it doesnt mean they agree with them.
Maybe we are supposed to do the least threat. Who knows. I have no idea what the hell they want to do with the class anymore.

Victer@Oasis wrote:

I doubt they've looked over them. No Berserkers in Focused Feedback, perhaps, so no Berserker voices heard? I've shouted into the void of Test /Feedback myself. Look what it did ... it got us put FARTHER behind all the other Fighters. Like I said, Math isn't that hard.
SK's can now generate 33% more ST and AE hate than Berserkers.
Guardians and Paladins can now generate 100% more ST hate and equal AE hate on groups of up to 4.
Monks can generate 2.5x the ST hate and over 30% more AE hate than Berserkers via taunts and have a lower melee multiplier penalty in Defensive Stance.
That's just taunts and CAs with taunts. Now factor in buffs and DPS and having the worst resist rate for those taunts ... time to go watch Deliverance.
On the bright side, a lot of people are complaining about being "Taunt Monkeys". We don't have to worry about that since our taunts are so impotent.

For bug report.
1. We have a skill Aggressive Defense (71 lvl) and proc on it that called Provoking Counterattack
This proc is a slashing damage. Not magic, not heat... Its melee. So why if we have a 100% melee crit (or more) this proc have a 0 crit in parse? With dirge in party we have a 7-8% crit damage from this proc. Hmm. May be it is a magic damage? Is it the truth? All of us are a few wizards.
So its broken.
2. Wall of force
Mmm. Not bad ability. But. Lets go to Kultak. And what? We cant adsorb by ths ability his melee AoE. Damm. Why? Or Wall of force is broken, or his slashing AoE is a magic, like our Provoking Counterattack? Need fix it. Anything of that. But better Wall of force and Provoking Counterattack.

Since the revamp has been scrapped back to design phase, I'd like to see us do something similar to this list, but focused on issues from live. Examples of my personal issues -
Taunts do so little threat as to be virtually meaningless. Values need to be adjusted.
Defensive stance penalizes our ability to hold aggro far too much. The accuracy penalty needs to be removed from the stance as part of any move forward to better functionality.
Our debuff AA line is kind of pointless, given that the values of our debuffs are so miniscule. Something should be done to adjust for this.
While the final ability is quite nice, the wisdom line is in general rather worthless right now. A re-thinking may be in order.
Unyielding will should trigger AFTER any other form of death prevention. It is incredibly lame to have TWO healers hit me with a death prevention at the same time and still die from an exploded heart. - on a related note, there should be a visible timer for the heart explosion so we can easily time click-berserk to prevent it, something that can be really hard to keep track of mid-messy pull that causes you to need it.
Vision of madness needs to have a larger initial health return on it. It is basically only a soloing tool in its current state.

Probably can remove the items related to the Fighter Changes now in anticipation of replacing them sometime in August when the next iteration of said changes hits Test.
I would also add the following Low Priority bugs which have been sent into the /feedback /bug ether countless times but will probably take >8 months to fix like the last expansion's simple typo fixes:

Perseverance: Does not gray out when it's on the user.

TSO Suffix Title: The Agressor. Should be The Aggressor.

Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:

OK, nevermind on half of that.... Perseverance was fixed, although it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes.

Sorry for neglecting this post but I made a few changes taken from feedback from you guys.
Kurgan your "Agressor" concern does not effect game play so I didn't add it to the list although I agree its annoying.
Warrlord we need more testing of your Wall of Force concerns before its added it to the list.
Danelin the majority of your concerns have already been in our list for some time. If you'd like it reworded I'll take suggestions.

Here are the changes:

• Removed concerns from previous fighter revamp.

Added:

• Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Although this skill is listed as slashing damage, melee critical modifiers are not applied. It seems that spell critical modifiers are being used instead.

• Defensive Stance: The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. Agro generation is drastically reduced by missing the target too often. We also require being able to hit the target to proc our berserk effect to properly use our main tanking ability Adrenaline.

1. Remove the negative melee skills.

• Aggressive Defense (auto taunt): Procs on 20% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.

1. Change the auto-taunt proc rate to 50%+.
2. Change the auto-taunt proc to proc off ANY incoming attack.

• Berserker Mythical Weapon: Enrage is heat damage when it should be some sort of melee damage.

1. Change it to some sort of melee damage.

i think a better idea would be to get rid of the hate proc portion on our mythical and give us a more in line stance proc, replace the line on the mythical with something else.