Thoughts on Juggernaut

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Kaleco, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    You know whats acually pointless, is trying to point things out to players who have built there zerkers around nothing but tanks. Players that think that all the Berserkers CA's should do nothing but aid them in a Defensive role.
    Thing is im glad you guys are succesful at tanking and all and im glad at what i have had a chance to tank in the game which alot of you probally havent even seen or know how to get to, but point here is, they threw the Offensive based Zerkers a bone with Juggernaut, zerkers who know how to fill more then one role because there is times on raids that i wont be tanking, there is times in groups when im too tired or lazy to tank because ive done enough of it on raids and just want to go all out DPS which alot of you probally have a big chance if any to do, so with little experience in this area i can understand how you could be lead to believe that we dont do DPS, or we dont have any support utility, when i think the main people who lead people to believe this is the people here in the forums, which is the players yourselves.
    9 times out of 10, you dig our own graves, so if your raid leader says we have no use for a Berserker today you can sit it out, then the only people you have to blame is you yourselves advocating that we are nothing but tanks and totally useless at anything else, wether it be DPS, Support utility or Tank.
    The same can be said about groups, if you cant get a group because they already have a tank and you suggest that you can add some DPS and support to the group by increasing the groups damage output and they turn around and say " well we dont need a Zerker because they cant do DPS " totally missing the point that we can add another few hundred DPS to Scouts and other melee classes, then fine what ever, keep burning your bridges.
    Im happy where i am because the players i play with all know there classes like the backs of theirs hands and have been playing MMO's for years, probally before alot of you were even born. We know how classes work, perform and act in many situations and are open minded, we all know that certain classes have nothing to offer but one thing where others can potentially offer a few things. This is the problem here with this game, people are so closed minded they think that each and every class is good for one thing and one thing only without knowing what potential they really have.
    Ill say it again, if you are lvl 65 and dont know how to use this skill, then you turely need to role a Guardian when they let you change your Berserker to Guardians and vice versa.
    I wouldnt go as far to say its usefull, but has come in handy alot for me thats for sure.
  2. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    :smileyvery-happy:
    Well said man.
  3. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Infernus006, you act like there is nothing to do but raid in this game........................when majority of the raid instances are on 6 day lockouts and single group instances are 18 hours.....................:smileyindifferent:
    Yeah, we raid all day long every day, doing single group instances, quests, then raids, then single group instances and repeat the same the next day, so i guess we know nothing because we raid, i can see how this makes sense.:smileyindifferent:
  4. ARCHIVED-aias Guest

  5. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

  6. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Aonien wrote: "i do feel sorry for you man, not sure what guild your in or name of your char, but id like to check you guild and gear out. I think id get quite a laugh there too."

    Aonien wrote: "Gear doesnt speak for experience."
    Does anyone else see the pattern of blatent contridiction here? LOL

  7. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Anyways, back to the subject. I think out of all the ideas that people have posted on how to change this spell so far the "steamroller" idea is my favorite LOL. I would love to be the only class in the game that has the ability to atually reposition mobs by pusing them rather than just pulling them around. =D
  8. ARCHIVED-aias Guest

    You raid everyday all day?!? ROFL

    Yes! You have been called out. You are a hypocrite and prone to delusions. Next time you make unhelpful and condescending comments about others and their opinions or ideas you need to check yourself.

    This thread is about juggernaut and not about one person's supposed superior skills as a berserker.
  9. ARCHIVED-Narnian_Lion Guest

    If you guys continue to flame each other, then this thread will become locked and our chances of ever getting Juggernaut improved/changed will suffer.
    With that said...I am a tank...every single time I log in I am tanking. I tank everything, including raids, and I love my berserker dearly. I see no reason why my pedigree would have any bearing on this discussion...but for those of you who care about that, I'm head to toe fabled with about 4600 raid buffed mitigation before any short term buffs are applied, and probably one of the nicest equipped berserkers on my server.
    I am the main tank during most of the raids that I'm in. But my guild likes to rotate and give others a chance, especially on easier encounters so we switch others in sometimes. When I'm not the main tank, I'm usually still in the main tank group in defensive stance with a shield out and guarded vehemence on the main tank. A 49% chance for the MT to use my 63% avoidance (master I courageous will, grizzfazzle's shield, tons of parry and defense on items, spec'd for agility, and achievements) to dodge an attack really cuts down the damage, and if something were to happen, I'd be in a strong position to take over.
    And of course I tank difficult single group content. There is no situation that I'd ever be in where using Juggernaut would be beneficial to me. I understand that some berserkers might not tank as often, and fill a situational tanking / dps role and might have a use for this...but no skill should ever be designed to only benefit certain play styles within a class. And Most Definately Not our only new skill in a tier.
    Futhermore...this skill is bland...very bland. Our defining tier 7 skill does nothing more than increase crit chance and combat art damage slightly? It is so uncreative. My idea for Juggernaut is a short duration buff that allows a berserker to weild a two handed weapon in one hand, allowing a second two handed weapon to be equipped, or a shield. This skill would also remove the gear swap timer and increase the size of the berserker by 50% while in effect...and perhaps light him on fire too. Imagine a gigantic flaming berserker dual wielding two handed swords...yet instead we get to cripple ourselves for a slight increase in damage...Upgrading the quality of this skill would increase its duration. The basic attributes such as duration and recast can be whatever sony considers balanaced...the point is that we need something unique...something Worth using...something that makes everyone else around us go WOW, "What did that guy just do?"
    The current form of Juggernaut should be an achievement, not something that is forced on the entire berserker population as our marquis ability. As I stated previously, there are many berserkers who do nothing but tank, and do not want an ability that completely removes our Primary function within a group in order to slightly buff our Secondary function.
    Thank you.
  10. ARCHIVED-Aonach Guest

    I've been watching this thread with interest but couldn't really comment because I wasn't 65. I dinged it 2 days ago and ahve used Juggernaught now so here is my 2p worth.

    I'm the MT in my guild. Raiding T6 epic x 4's etc. Normally I'm grouped with healers and DPS/Haste boosting guildmates on raids and even with 1handed and shield and in Def mode I constantly appear in the top 4 of the DPS lists on parse. The reason I mention this is because as MT in the guild I don't need anymore DPS, my DPS is fine. With the right setup and proper use of CA's I can out DPS a lot of the guild wizzies and rogues.

    Yesterday while in the Silent City killing epic x4's and the bird, I forget his name right now, I warned the healers I was going to try and use Juggernaught my new 65 CA. Considering I am the MT in the guild this is always and only the time I could/would ever use it. I popped it off and seen what happened. Instantly all my stats went red and my health bar dropped like the preverbial lead zepplin. The healers went nuts and kept me alive till it went away.

    At the end of the fight I checked the parses and discovered that it actually didn't do much at all fro my DPS, I had 1 crit more than my normal rate but my DPS stayed pretty much the same.

    I know this is a bit rambly but I'm only posting my experience using it. I know Aonein has been harping on that by level 65 I "should know when to use this CA" Well I'll tell you what, I can't imagine a single non mundane task this CA is useful for for me. So in his infinite wisdom I'd like him to tell me what use this spell is to a guilds MT. Considering all other tanks have been given useful level 65 CA's?
  11. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Huh? i think someone is way off track here and may have missed a few posts, if not a few pages worth.
  12. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    No you miss my point completely yet again as usual, which at this point im not surprised.
    You like to talk about all the stuff you have tanked, yet i fail to see your name, sig or anything that acually states what you have tanked and i have stood here and told many people that i have tanked everything in the game except Djinn Master, so that being said seeing as you love to do nothing but advocate us to be totally and utterly useless unless tanking then tell us of your experience o wise one that makes you think that we should all follow your view on how we should play our Berserkers, please do enlighten us.
    Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-11-200601:16 AM
  13. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    I just had a brainstorm, how about Juggernaut do this.
    Decrease crit chance by 27%, consume a percentage of HP like it does now, increase Defense / Parry by 70 and increase mitigation by 1580 for 24 seconds.
    Yeah, that should fix it, what do you think infernus006? I mean after all, thats all we can do right? Is tank.....
    Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-11-200601:36 AM
  14. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Aonein, I am done arguing with you. I don't need to prove myself to you. I am not telling you or anyone else here how to play your class. I really don't care what you do in this game. That is up to you. I'm just sick of people like you coming here and whining about our class and trying to get it changed! There is nothing wrong with it the way it is, except Juggernaut. And it is quite obvious that the vast majority of the Berserker population is not happy with this new spell at all and we will do everything that we possibly can to get it changed into something that is actually useable and more appropriate for our class. If you really don't want it to be changed then you need to give at least one good reason why it shouldn't be. But no, all you do is say that we should know how to use it and figure it out for ourselves or just take your word for it. Screw that! I have no use for it and I never will and I want it changed.
  15. ARCHIVED-Narnian_Lion Guest

    Finally you are starting to make sense...yes...that is all we can do. Tank. That's it. In complete agreement.
  16. ARCHIVED-lich1313 Guest

    I used Juggernaut most of the night last night while off tanking. If you'll notice they removed the HP costs from the spell. They added a really cool and huge viking helm spell affect that floats above you for the spells duration. I was dropping rampage, open wounds, and juggernaut with HUGE numbers flying everywhere. Added alot to my dps. I was seeing 1k+ on short fights under 30 seconds. 500-700 dps in fights lasting 1-3 mins. This spell rocks. I pulled aggro a few times, but not the entire encounter. One mob maybe two, the healers keep me up while I switched to defensive and cast Chaos. I have no complaints with this spell. Credit to the beast of a guardian holdin the line as well.

    Stealth Nerf for the win.

    Renzen
    Blackburrow.
  17. ARCHIVED-lich1313 Guest

    Oh, I was having trouble going zerk without taking damage. Casting Open Wounds does the trick after 5 seconds or so.

    Edit*
    I didn't drop all three spells at once everytime. I cycle threw them to keep my dps up for the duration. I found it most benefical to use with Open Wounds. And for those really long fights, using all three separately might be better. We were in PP: The Return. Those trash cows with huge HP I'd typically fire Open Wounds + Juggernaut when the first mob was 50%. Toss Rampage on the next mob. Hope this is helpful. /shrug
    Message Edited by lich1313 on 03-10-200601:46 PM
  18. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    This would be an awesome, totally overpowered spell. Every other tank class would complain why beserkers get such an awesome ability, you give nothing and get awesome defense. You made a very good point against juggernaut, the benefits are nothing compared to the costs.
    As I can see so far only beserkers who seem to like not to tank are in favour of this spell, but in my opinion these people can't speak for the beserker tank class, because the vast majority of beserkers are tanking when they play and therefore have absolutely no use for juggernaut.
    This spell still needs to be changed because it is absolutely unbalanced in its current form. The devs probably won't give a cool defensive ability, but to make all beserkers happy, the great majority of tanking beserkers and the small minority of beserkers who don't tank, how about to eg, remove all penalties from the spell and leave only the benefits? The small amount of damage you gain won't break the damage tiers and everyone could use this spell and benefit from it.
  19. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "If you'll notice they removed the HP costs from the spell."

    They didn't remove it, they only reduced it a little. And if the relatively small health drain was the only penalty of using this spell it would still be hard enough for me to decide on using it. But the severe reduction to mitigation, resists, and avoidance that are tacked on as well is what makes the spell not worth it for me to even scribe it.

    "I was dropping rampage, open wounds, and juggernaut with HUGE numbers flying everywhere. Added alot to my dps. I was seeing 1k+ on short fights under 30 seconds. 500-700 dps in fights lasting 1-3 mins. This spell rocks...I found it most benefical to use with Open Wounds."

    We already know that Rampage and Open Wounds are awesome abilities that allow us to do some nice DPS against grouped encounters. There is no question about that. They are still pretty awesome on their own, even when you don't stack them. The problem is Juggernaut. It doesn't add nearly enough to our DPS *by itself* for the severe penalties it comes with to be worth it. That is the arguement here. What I want to know is how much *extra* DPS was being added from Juggernaut alone, not counting the uber DPS that you were already getting from Rampage and Open Wounds. Does it really seem so uber then?

    "I pulled aggro a few times, but not the entire encounter. One mob maybe two, the healers keep me up while I switched to defensive and cast Chaos. I have no complaints with this spell. Credit to the beast of a guardian holdin the line as well."

    And my point stands that unless you have a good tank keeping aggro for you and good healers watching out for you when you use this spell then it is nothing more than suicide. And then you cause your healers to have to their waste power healing you and you had to waste time casting your defense buffs to stay alive, negating any extra DPS you would have gotten from the spell. And considering that it only lasts for 24 seconds and has a reuse timer of 3 minutes, it seems like a total waste of effort to me.

    "Oh, I was having trouble going zerk without taking damage. Casting Open Wounds does the trick after 5 seconds or so."

    So you admit that by itself the spell is totally useless.
  20. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Infernus for the love of god, YOU are the one coming here and whining because Juggernaut doesnt do the ultimate ability you want it to do, remember? YOU are the one who wants it to add to your tanking ability and YOU are the one who wants it to 10,000 dps if it doesnt add to your tanking ability.
    Ive been stating through this entire thread that im happy as it is, and will still love my Berserker class with or without this spell.
    What we are sick of is you coming here and making out your some kind of offensive tank when you run around pretending to be a Guardian, because if it wasnt for Open Wounds or Rampage, you would be identical to them.........we are sick of is you trolling every thread that even remotely suggests a way to play other then a Defensive style and flaming it to peices with your views that we should be nothing but a tank, we are plain sick to death of it.
    Yes infernus006, we get the picture, you like to tank, and i wouldnt be surprised if you solo with your shield........or like when you suggested you stood down for the SK in your group cause he was a higher level, you more then likely attempted to DPS with a shield equipped..........
    Point is, you like to tank, good for you, not everyone likes to tank 24/7, and i will gladly step off the pedastal to let another tank class tank and ill even invite other tanks just to watch them tank in groups, why? Because i can accept that we dont just tank.....its like the other night in zerker channel we were all compairing our DPS and doing upwards of 800 DPS on single target ^^^ herioc mobs, now if you dont call that DPS, then im clueless as to what you would call DPS, but thats not the main thing we have to offer a group in a offtank postion.
    Whole point to this is, you only know how to tank infernus006, because thats all you believe we can do. You have no room for open minded conversation when it comes to ways to improve your DPS because you dont want to know about it, and i bet you only have one set of gear, tank gear.
    Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-11-200609:58 AM

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