Summed me up perfectly, thanks for pointing that out for the reading impaired man, appreciate it. Let me add that while doing DPS on raids, i like to be put in with Scout classes to also further increase their own DPS also. Im pretty much done with this thread because its way out of hand now, people like to tank, people like to DPS plus tank, people like to DPS, why? Because the Berserker class is about the only class who can tank and have a good amount of damage output in the game, like i have been saying, thats the beauty of the class, its versatility. If people want to keep going on and on about Juggernaut when LU21 hasnt even been released yet which will fix it from getting worse with each upgrade to it, then dont use it. Are you going to be any less of a tank for not using this ability? Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-18-200609:43 AM
You know I have been re-reading that old thread that Silewen started before the expansion came out and MAN am I getting some good laughs from it. Silewen said: "Only 2 raid guilds on my server =) Each guild has their own designated main tank berserker, guardians have either sold their character or sidelined them for healers, etc." LOL "If people want to keep going on and on about Juggernaut when LU21 hasnt even been released yet which will fix it from getting worse with each upgrade to it, then dont use it. Are you going to be any less of a tank for not using this ability?" The point is we want something we CAN use, whether we are tanking, soloing, dueling, or DPS'ing. Right now Juggernaut is not useful while performing ANY of those activities.
That's true, did you know on The Bazaar terrorantula was killed for the first time in mid-late january.... did you know God King wasn't killed until 2 weeks before KoS release.... We didnt have the population for a tier1 raiding guild... I'm also thru with this thread and I also am put in the scout group during raids to help their dps. Message Edited by Silelwen on 03-18-200612:31 AM
Aonein, Can you make up your mind. You start out by quoting me in reference to you, saying that you never said we are a DPS class. BUT did you not say, 1) We fill DUAL ROLES, well what exactly is that other role we are filling when not actings as a Tank, Healer? 2) You state in your Post that I replieid to, that once again you have some SPECIAL knowledge of this game, specifically in how to play Berserker's for Maximum DPS, that no one else knows. Not to mention you start your post stating that you "understand this class better than most of us posting that all we are is a tank". You really make me laugh there. Seen similiar condescending comments from you like that before, like this game is a science. Ya, maybe when you factor in all the 10 year olds and below playing toons, yea, you really do shine above them. But that aside, NO you dont. You know what, maybe you should start holding Seminars on how to play your Zerker for the rest of us. So we all can know the SCIENCE of EQ2. Since this game is so difficult to play. Facts are, our haste/DPS proc, as you put it, does not allow us to fill, DUAL ROLES. It is one group CA that is nice to have, just like many other class buffs. It may secure you a spot in a group in a raid. But that does NOT, make us a DPS class or Dual Role. There is only one role for Zerkers and that is Tank/ off tank. To fill DUAL roles would be to suggest that we can take the place of say an Assassin on a raid or in a group. We cannot. Message Edited by Montaigu on 03-20-200604:22 AM
Very good points once again, Montaigu. Aonein is constantly contradicting himself and acting like he is smarter and better than everyone else here, when he really has no idea what he is talking about at all. But he still likes to pretend that he does. It's obvious that all he cares about is DPS and he will take anything he can get that is supposed to give him more DPS no matter how crappy it is or what the cost is to get it. And like Silewen is so hell-bent on getting this class changed into a DPS class that he will take any avenue he can find to bring up the same old agruements over and over. And all we want is a new Juggernaut spell that we can acually use. That's the one reason why this thread was started. I don't think that's asking for too much. And after all these pages no one has been able to post one shred of evidence to support the idea that the spell is actually useful at all in any situation. Of course Aonein expects everyone to just take his word for everything or go figure it out for themselves and if they can't then they are just idiots and a disgrace to their class. That is pretty much exactly what he has said. Well this Juggernaut spell is a disgrace to our class if you ask me and so is Aonein. Not because of how he chooses plays this class either, but because of how he treats his fellow Berserkers, at least the ones who disagree with him. And I believe you have him to thank for ruining this thread with is insulting nature and constant flame-baiting. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-20-200601:33 PM
"I also am put in the scout group during raids to help their dps." That is not new information. We already know that our group Berserk buff is beneficial to scouts in raids. But that is the only thing we have that is really beneficial in a raid. And if you are happy just standing there being a buff bot in raids and if all you do is raid and that's all you do every time you log on is just stand there and buff your scouts' DPS all night then good for you but that's not how I choose to play my character in this game. If you want to be somebody and make something out of yourself and you play a Zerker in this game you are going to have to tank and you have to get good at it to get people to notice you. No one is ever going to really notice you for your DPS and Juggernaut is not going to change that either. So like I have been saying...tanking is the only thing that we really have going for us and anyone who is willing to throw that all away just to get a bit of extra DPS and have our one new ability in this expansion wasted on a totally useless ability is just asinine. Also, I'll have you know that I attended a Godking raid last night with the biggest guild on my server and they had a Zerker as the MT and a Guardian as the MA. Both of them were level 70 and had similar quality gear. And a few weeks ago I attended a raid on the Courts of Al'Afaz with another guild that also had a Zerker as the MT and an SK as the MA. So no more of this sutpid argument that no big raiding guilds ever use a Zerker as their MT and that Guardians are the only ones good enough for that role because that is total BS. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-20-200601:39 PM
Are people still talking on this thread? I thought we are supposed to be done with this argument and the main people who were supposedly egging it on have stated their finish? I know who the real instigator is on these forums.
LOL Silewen, no one ever said that they were all done talking about the Juggernaut issue. I'm really not sure where you got that idea. I know you wish that was the case and that everyone would just shut up about it because you want it to stay exactly the way it is but I can assure you that is not the case. The vast majority of the people who play Berserkers in this game are highly dissatisfied with the Juggernaut ability and want it to be changed ASAP. That is the whole reason why this thread was started in the first place. To voice our concerns about this issue and to offer constructive ideas for solutions to the problem at hand. And you and Aonein have had nothing constructive to add to this discussion the whole time. If you had one valid argument as to why the Juggernaut ability should stay the way it is that would be different but it's quite apparent that is not the case and you two are only hear to aggrivate people who have no desire to play the game exactly the same as you, which involves forgoing all tanking ability to try and become a full-time DPS with their Zerker. Which obviously most people think is a very silly idea but you just can't seem to handle that. The only reason you like this spell at all is simply because you like the concept of it which involves throwing away all of your defenses so you can squeeze out more DPS and you want to be a true DPS so bad that you even don't care how well the spell actually works. Which honestly, is really quite sad. And I also find it really funny that you keep saying that you are through posting here but then you just keep on posting anyway, like you think you're going to be the one to get the last word in and that's it. Well think again, pal. This is still a huge issue for many of us and we are not just going to let it go because a couple of trouble-makers tried to hijack our thread and turn it into a flame-fest. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-20-200604:59 PM
See you just gotta keep egging it on, you aren't continuing the thread topic but continuing to talk about tanking and stupid stuff, and then to top it off you give examples of people tier7 tanks raiding tier6 content. You know though, that is a good point, I heard that this one guild used a berserker raid tank to kill Venekor... I was like OMG! Berserkers are real tanks! Then the other day I heard there was a group, and a berserker tanked iceberg, omg! You are so right! Honestly though, I did more research and found that Malice (Tier1 raiding guild) used to have a main-tank berserker, so that's pretty cool. I'm not trying to say we aren't tier1 main tanks, but I do want examples that show we can be. Looks like Malice was the closest I could get to find one, and all infernus could find was a bunch of lvl70s tanking blue trivial content. I have killed Godking and our main-tank was a berserker... But killing God King at 60 was at best was maybe a requirement for Tier2. I can almost guarantee you that God king is now 2 groupable. But most tier1 raiding guilds are going to spend time getting eyes to go back and prove that.
"I'm not trying to say we aren't tier1 main tanks, but I do want examples that show we can be." That is BS because you and Aonein both have been going on and on about how Guardians are supposedly better tanks than us and always will be and you have even suggested that Berserkers will not be able to tank any of the T7 raid content and that only Guardians will be able to. That is total BS. And why does anyone need to go through the trouble of digging up specific expamples of anything just to try and prove a simple thing that any idiot can easily figure out for themselves and really should already know by now anyway? Not worth it IMO. No one here cares enough about you to bother I don't think. Really, if you don't want to believe that Zerkers can tank just as well as Guardians in most cases that is up to you. I personally really don't care what you believe, honestly. You can go on living in your little fantasy world where Berserkers are a DPS class if that's what makes you happy. It does not bother me. Of course we all know that doesn't work because the problem is you are not happy because you know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well that you're not a real DPS and you never will be so you come to our forum and stir up trouble just and try to make everyone else who plays this class just as miserable as you are. And once again the topic of this discussin is the Juggernaut ability. So since you are asking for proof that Zerkers can tank on a thread that is supposed to be about the Juggernaut ability then I will ask you to get back to the topic and post some proof that this Juggernaut ability actually makes you into a DPS class, since you must really believe that to defend it so much. So where is it? I'm sure everyone here would really like to see it. I want to see parses and I want to know what mobs in what zones you used the spell against. My guess is that you can maybe get an extra 10% DPS at most when assisting another tank to kill easy trash mobs that don't have any serious AOEs with this spell on, and that's only on the few occasions that you actually manage to get it off at just the right time of course. And I suspect that does not happen very [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] often in any case. Hell, I can get an extra 10% DPS for 20 seconds by casting Bind Wound before a fight and don't have to suffer even one penalty for it. So where us the supposed uberness of Juggernaut hiding? Then I want you to take whatever piddly DPS you manage to get from Juggernaut and compare it to the Wizard's Fusion spell. Hell, compare it to the thing the Pallies got, that thing is freaking nice. So is the Guardian one. Compare it to that and then come back here and tell me you think that Juggernaut is a good spell for us. And keep in mind that all of those abilities I just mentioned are offensive damage spells that work a heck of a lot better than ours does. I think you have your work cut out for you if your goal is to prove that this ability is even worth scribing. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-20-200606:49 PM
I'm going to go ahead and email all my dev contacts and tell them how much I love my new juggernaut skill, especially when raiding! Thanks designers, don't listen to these cry babies who don't understand how you intend the game to be =) If you decide to make this spell even more desirable, just up the crit chance =)
Silewen you are nothing but a troll. Seriously. Thank you for proving that to everyone. I will be sure to add that one to my list of funny quotes by you. I really don't see how you can be so happy that other tanks are getting better offensive damage spells for their new t7 ability than we are. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-20-200606:53 PM
I'm thinking its time we let this thread die its long drawn out death. I'd suggest creating a new one, and qouting anything useful from this thread. Otherwise this thread lost any credit at about page 3 with all the back and forth. If you dont wish to start it, i'll try and do one when i can. We both feel that juggernaut should be re-evaulated.
Mjollnyr, I think that's a good idea except I think that Silewen and Aonein will try to hijack that one as well (because they don't have anything better to do with their time because they are so bored with trying to play DPS and being nothing more than a buff bot on their raids when they are not the MA) so it will probably be a pointless effort. But good luck with that if you decide to do it. I think we should try and keep this topic alive any way possible because it really is very important. I am level 69 now and probably going to ding 70 tonight and still have not scribed Juggernaut yet and probably never will because I have no use for it at all until it gets changed.
Infernus, scribe juggernaut so you can at least post personal uses for the spell. Not scribing it and going on a crusade about not using it b/c of that w/o having any personal interaction with the spell in question doesn't help any arguement.
There is a new serious juggernaut discussion thread created. I promise to try and stay away from the age-old dps vs tanking argument on this new thread. Juggernaut Serious Discussion: Should it be improved? Should it be useable while Tanking and DPSing?
"scribe juggernaut so you can at least post personal uses for the spell" I don't have any personal uses for it, that's the whole problem. I don't need to scribe it to see how back it sucks either, it's that bad. So I am boycotting it. And I knew it was going to suck before the expansion even came out and I tried to warn people. Some people didn't believe me and now they are changing their minds. Because it really is that bad.
