Thoughts on Juggernaut

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Kaleco, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "you pick apart people's posts and try to make them feel stupid"

    Can you blame me for pointing out the blatent mistakes that you have made by posting false information here?

    "My entire post centered around allowing us, thru our AAs, to make a decision, raid tank or added dps..."

    But that is not even how it works since all of the different lines of our AA's come with both defensive and offensive options. Except maybe the STR line but then it comes with that extra hate gain and the final ability only works when you are low on health. So it's abvious that they intended for Zerkers taking the STR path to still be able to tank. So no matter what path you take you will still wind up being about the same either way. Remember, they did say that these achievements were not going to be game-breaking choices.

    "please find the quote that says all our berserkers AAs are going to be Offensive..."


    I told you that both Guardians and Berserkers were going to be getting both defensive and offensive AAs and you basically told me that I was full of crap and that Guardians were going to be getting all defensive AAs and that we are going to get all offensive ones causing Guardians to become better MT's than us and forcing us to become more of a non-tanking DPS class. Which obviously is not even remotely the case. And then you talk about being on the beta server and talking to devs...yeah right. That is basically what you said and no I am not going to go back digging through all those stupid posts of yours trying to find the quote because I don't need to. I know what you said.

    "I just hope you weren't serious when you said the berserkers who don't want to be raid tanks are in the minority..."

    You know what? That is not even what I said at all. Get a clue.

    "I have no issues main tanking, but I do have issues with the time requirement and dedication that come with the position."

    Then don't do it. No one is trying to force you. Just live with the choice that you made and make do with it. Or reroll. Those are your only options. Don't bother coming here just to complain about the fact that your class is built for a purpose that you never intenend to fullfill and try to get it changed because tjat is what you chose (and you can aruge about it all you want but that is exactly what happened, you failed to do the proper research on this class before picking it and you assumed it was something totally different, again your mistake) and don't except it to get changed into something else a whole year after the release of the game because if what you really wanted was uber DPS (not just good DPS but *uber* DPS) you're never going to get it with this class and you're never going to be happy and you will come here just to try and make eveyone else who plays this class just as miserable as you. I told you that they were not changing our class into a DPS class and I told you they were not going to give us the option of making ourselves into one via our AAs either. And you would not believe me. And now look, I was right and you were wrong (about a lot of things) and yet you still try to argue with me. Why can't we just agree on something for once, that Juggernaut sucks and they need to fix it? Like I have been saying, I don't have a problem with them giving us a new offensive ability. But they need to make one that actually works!

    "i actually think the penalty to defensive abilities is fun."

    See what I mean...the whole point of this spell is just to hurt ourselves for "fun", not to do any extra DPS. So it has no value to any serious player.


    I would also like to point out the fact that there is another high level Zerker in my guild who likes to be more of a DPS than a tank (the exact opposite of me). He hates using a sheild and he hates all of our defense buffs that reduce our DPS. Needless to say we've had some arguements about it LOL. But he is still a good friend of mine nonetheless. Anyways I just happened to have looted the Ad1 of Juggernaut (much to my dismay) and even though I am level 67 now I still haven't scribed it and I don't plan to either. I don't feel like wasting the space in my knowledge book for it LOL. I was going to hang on to it just in case they might change it to something good but I have a bad feeling that we are just stuck with it the way it is at this point. My guildy is going on level 60 now and I showed him the spell and I tried to give it to him for free in case he wanted to try it out when he gets to 65 but he wouldn't take it, he said to burn it LOL. I was actually kind of surprised by that too, I thought that he would at least want to try it out considering how much into DPS'ing he is, but no, he hates it just as much as I do and has no interest in ever even scribing the spell, that's how pitiful it is.

    Really, Juggernaut is an insult to our class, nothing more.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-13-200601:29 PM
  2. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    You know infernus, that last paragraph of your previous post is the most real I have ever talked to you about. I am not lying or trying to decieve you about the dev info I had, it had nothing to do with AAs but came when I emailed him something that alarmed me, I noticed all the berserkers were wearing leather or chain in KoS screenshots, before beta began. He emailed back saying this was in actual consideration, but was scrapped not to long into KoS development. I guess they figured the population would be in to much of an uproar, and that's prolly not the best thing to do now with the current state of the game. I cannot post my email on these forums or another external site, because if he wanted that to be common knowledge, it would of been posted already. I'm not buddy buddy with this game designer, just exchange words from now and then, and I sure would not want to jeopardize my relationship just trying to prove myself on these forums.

    BUT THAT'S BESIDE THE POINT, HEHE

    After seeing this, but with it being before beta began (meaning I hadn't been able to see anything with my own eyes), I theorized that Guardians would come back in this next expansion to be major tanks... Honestly I do think their tanking has been upped a notch in this expansion, but was shocked when I found out guardians and berserkers have the same exact AAs, but at this point I was still under NDA and could not post that info. So yes, I was wrong thinking we would have different AAs, but at the same time I never said we would be only offensive, I only wanted there to be options for us berserkers who rolled a class not realizing that when we raid, we should be the main-tank. Prolly a bad decision on my part, but when you buy the game and it talks about guardians being the elite warriors with better armor, blah blah blah, a person with any intelligence would assume only one thing, they won't want me as a main tank, it will have to be a guardian... I mean in EQ1 only warriors could be main-tanks, not monks, not berserkers, not paladins, etc. **** the whole archetype system, because I know you're going to say well berserkers are warriors, as well as guardians. The archetype system was meant to ease you into your final profession (something SOE later deemed to be useless) so in EQ1 Warriors and Berserkers came from the same roots, but choose different paths towards their end roles. Not that they literally chose them, but lore-wise they did.

    ANYWAYS

    I see your point with the AAs but maybe this is stupid but I'm giving it a try. I'm going to spend my 50 points like this...

    STR 4 - 4 - 8
    AGI 4 - 4 - 8
    STA 5 - 4 - 8

    This gives you double attack with a 1hander, frontal aoe from auto-attack, and melee crit chance increases... Then I have 2 spells I can use to increase melee crit with an axe 1h, and aoe attack with a spear... and if I'm group tanking, a parry ability but I forget what it's called, but I think it requires you to be getting hit to work. I think this could be a powerful DPS setup, even though I'm equipping a buckler.
  3. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "I am not lying or trying to decieve you about the dev info I had...I theorized that Guardians would come back in this next expansion to be major tanks"

    See, I think that's where we're getting a bit confused. Because a dev told you that they were thinking about nerfing our class to leather you assumed that our class was going to become more DPS-oriented and that Guardians were going to be made the supreme tanks again. Because that's only what you would like to see happen. But then that goes against the whole point of the CU that came with LU13...to balance the classes more so that there was no longer a supreme tank (Guardian), supreme healer (Templar), and a supreme DPS (Wizard) in the game, making all the other classes sub-par and not worth playing. You see, you cannot have a supreme at anything in this game without having a sever imbalance in the worth of all the other classes that are made to perfrom the same fuction. Most of the people I talk to who played EQ1 seem to agree that the Berserker in that game was one of the most useless classes available because of the fact that they could not tank very well and they were still not top-teir DPS either. Kind of like where Brawlers are stuck in this game. Why would you want us to be that way again? Anyways, the whole point of the archetype system was so that you had choices and you could get a better understanding of the choices that you made. So if you chose to become a Warrior then you should have known what you would be expected of and would not be able to do in the game and you shouldn't have just assumed that the two subclasses that branch off from there would be that much different from each other. Because that's not how it is with any of the other subclasses that came from the same class in this game. Why would it be that way for us? They are all very similar to each other, even the ones from the opposite alignments. Assasin/Ranger, Swash/Brig, Troub/Dirge, Temp/Inq, Fury/Warden, Defiler/Mystic, Necro/Conj, Illusionist/Coercer, Wizard/Warlock, Monk/Bruiser, SK/Pally, Gaurd/Zerker. That's how it is. And since the Guardian is the closest relative that we have in this game, that should tell you something. Why should it be Monk/Bruiser/Zerker or Zerker/Assasin/Ranger or whatever it is that you want it to be leaving the Guardian all by itself? Does that really make a whole lot of sense?

    "I mean in EQ1 only warriors could be main-tanks, not monks, not berserkers, not paladins, etc. **** the whole archetype system, because I know you're going to say well berserkers are warriors, as well as guardians. The archetype system was meant to ease you into your final profession (something SOE later deemed to be useless) so in EQ1 Warriors and Berserkers came from the same roots, but choose different paths towards their end roles."


    It really doesn't matter what Berserkers were in EQ1 because in EQ2 they were made to be tanks and that's how most people have been playing them. It's a plate-wearing fighter class that gets taunts, mitigation, and defense buffs as well as some nice offensive skills. To change that now and force them out of the tanking role just because a few would rather have more DPS instead would be ludicrous.

    "Honestly I do think their tanking has been upped a notch in this expansion"

    There is only one reason why that could be true and that is Obliterate vs Juggernaut. Because they got a nice offensive skill that they can use while tanking and we didn't. But in all honesty I think their Obliterate skill would actually be more useful in a DPS role even than Juggernaut, which is really sad, don't you think? They can probably get more DPS with that thing than we can with Juggernaut considering the huge difference in the reuse timers and they don't have any penalties to suffer for it either. And think about how much more powerful it's going to make them in duels as well. How would you like to be fighting a Guard with Juggernaut on and have him use Obliterate on you? Think about that for a second. And since the Guard's spell also debuffs the target's defenses as well as hitting it for a high amount of damage at the same time it is much more beneficial to their groupmates than our Juggernaut because it helps everyone else do more damage too and they don't have to severaly jeapordize themselves in order to use it. Our skill is so uselsess in comparison that it's not even funny. I bet Obliterate works against epics as well. IMO it is a very overpowered skill, at least when compared to ours it is.

    "I was wrong thinking we would have different AAs, but at the same time I never said we would be only offensive"

    I told you that Guardians were going to have offensive options too and you scoffed at me and said that no Guardian would want them. You said they would only want more defensive traits to supposedly make them better into MT's. But that's your misconceptioin, that a purly defensive tank is always a better tank than a more offensive one in every situation. You also said that because of our AA's there was going to be two totally different types of Berserkers in the game and I told you that SOE would never allow that to happen but you woudln't listen to me.

    "I only wanted there to be options for us berserkers who rolled a class not realizing that when we raid, we should be the main-tank"

    Then maybe Guardians should have those same options too? What about all the Guardians who are in guilds that either don't raid or already have a raid MT? Aren't they just as screwed as we are in that case? Same with Pallies and SK's. What makes us so special that we should have special options that make us more valuable outside the MT role than other plate tanks? I'm not saying that I am against them giving us special abilities to make us more useful outside the MT role that other plate tanks don't get but I don't see the justification or fairness in it. And I personally am not willing to give up any of my tanking abilities to get it, even though I don't even tank raids that much. It's just the principle of the matter.

    "when you buy the game and it talks about guardians being the elite warriors with better armor, blah blah blah, a person with any intelligence would assume only one thing, they won't want me as a main tank, it will have to be a guardian..."


    It's best not to assume anything, especially important decisions that will effect your ability to enjoy the game a year down the road, don't you think? That's why you reasearch the classes and talk to people who play them and find out what is up with them before you click the button if you don't know a lot about them already. You don't just look at the pictures in the book and read the marketing BS and go off that like it's god's word. And once again if there was only meant to be one main tanking class in the game why did they make 4 other plate fighters with taunts and defensive abilities that can only be used while tanking? Does it really make sense for one of them to be far and away better than all the others? Did you also take into account the fact that we have to be taking hits in order for our berserk proc, our one major self-defining ability, to even go off? I know they tacked on a small chance on there now for it to go off when just hitting things, but the chance for it to proc is still much greater when taking hits than just dealing them out...and that was not the case before LU13. It used to only go off when taking hits and that was it. Did you just totally fail to realize that back in your 20s when you got that skill or what? I mean besides the fact that you got taunts and plate armor I think you should have at least noticed that and been like hmmm....I guess that means I am supposed to tank if I can't even go BERSERK unless I am getting hit. Am I sure I want this? You know, back when you were 20 and it would have been very easy to start over as another class if that's not what you wanted to be.

    "I mean in EQ1 only warriors could be main-tanks, not monks, not berserkers, not paladins, etc."

    Well that's not the way they made it in EQ2, thank god. That would suck if you wanted to be a tank but you only had one class to pick from. Especially considering that there are 6 healer classes and 8 DPS classes to pick from that can all do their job about equally well. People want variety.

    "**** the whole archetype system, because I know you're going to say well berserkers are warriors, as well as guardians. The archetype system was meant to ease you into your final profession (something SOE later deemed to be useless) so in EQ1 Warriors and Berserkers came from the same roots, but choose different paths towards their end roles."


    The archetype system is still there and I don't think they are ever really going to be able to get rid of it, even if they really want to. Not if it means totally changing people's classes from one thing to another after all this time. It's far too late for that at this point.

    Look man, I don't want to start arguing with you about all this same old crap all over again, I really don't. We will obviously never agree on this issue so there really is no sense in arguing about it any longer. Just so you know, my goal here is not to keep you "opprssed" and unhappy with this class. But I am not willing to be nerfed to make you happy. I really think you should try to understand that. This might sound mean but I really don't care that you spent the last 60 levels playing the wrong class. Like I said, that was your mistake and I don't feel like being punished for it. Anyways, the topic here is not tank vs DPS. It really isn't. The topic here is that Juggernaut sucks for everyone no matter what role they want to play with their Zerker, whether it be DPS, tank, utility, or whatever. Like I said, if they want to give us a new offensive skill or a new utility thing that makes us more useful in raids when we are outside the MT role that's fine with me. But Juggernaut just not good for anything, that's why I want it changed so bad. Beacause it does nothing for us really, nothing at all, except make us look really stupid. It's a downright embarassment if you ask me. Can't we at least agree on this much?
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-13-200608:37 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-Montaigu Guest

    Silewen you are playing the wrong class if you want to go down the path of DPS, try a scout or mage. As far as a fool goes, probably that too, cause if you dont realize by now that the level of DPS that Scouts do is so far beyond what we are capable of, and that no matter what they do with juggernaugh, or what AAs you choose, you will never even come close to toucing the DPS of a scout, NEVER. So why would you even want to go down that path? Why would you want to make your berserker who could be a Phenomenal Tank, into a sub par DPS and less than great Tank in the process? Sound kind of foolish to me.

    And I think that as everyone reads this Thread, it is quite easy for most intelligent people to see that, Juggernaughts sucks. SOE even recongnized this, hence they stealth change to the spell, removing the Hitpoint DOT and adding the CA damage boost. But all in all, this spell still sucks. EVEN if they removed all the NEGATIVE side effects of this spell, it would still suck. The damage increase is not that much. You can easily discern the effects by tanking a green mob, and then hitting juggernaught, get out a pen and paper and write down the new damage ratings for all your combat arts. For the most part, I was getting roughly an additonal 100 damage to each of my combat arts, except Frenzied Blows which I got an additional 186 damage. Considering that this is a very situational CA, in that you have to be berserk to use it, one can assume that you have already used some combat arts prior to getting this off. So its not a whole lot of damage there.

    Its only Taemek and Sili, that think different. Guess the rest of us are wrong. Coming from one peep that wants to be DPS yet he rolled a Zerker, and the other who is always contradicting himself and bringing up things that are totally irrelevant to this discussion, like "what gear do you have" "what raid mobs have you tanked" All completely irrelevant. You dont even have to be level 65 to think this one thru, anyone with half a brain can imagine what it would be like to tank a even con mob, while using a skill that debuffs you for 15 levels and reduces your mititgation to that of Feyiron Armor. Real rocket science there. Next thing your gonna say to subvert this discussion is that it takes skill to play this game. Once again, this is a video game, not rocket science.
  5. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Does a Scout have the survivability that a Zerker does with their DPS? Nope, does a Zerker have three quarters the DPS of a Scout and survivability? Yep sure does, you may have over looked that.
    Why would you go down a straight Defense path when Guardians can tank better then us with out it? The mentality of why people chose what they do and how they play can fall both ways.
    NEVER coming to close to Scout DPS you say? What does DPS have to do with survivability? Most people play Zerkers because they do good DPS and are good at tanking, thats the reason why, if you roll a Zerker to do nothing but MT raids, that sounds kind of foolish to me.


    Better start reading it from the start and see how many non raid tanks acually state that they think the skill is a good one, and they have used and do use it quite often even when tanking.
    Removed the hit point dot? hmmmm im looking at it right now and it says 62 to cast and 62 every 2 seconds...........think you might wanna check it again to make sure your eyes arent playing tricks on you.
    Your numbers make me laugh, i suppose you wouldnt believe me if i told you i Demolished a mob for 2100 damage ethier, i mean you only get 100 more damage per hit, so yeah, because you say so, i guess it means i must be lieing.
    Do you know how easy it is to go Berserk in a offstance while offtanking with a set of dual weild weapons? Or do you think that everyone runs around with 4 second delay timed weapons?


    Again, where does it say you need to be tanking a mob to use or get the full benefit from this CA? And yeah it does take skill to play this game, the game has been 100% alot more harder then what it was when it was first released thats for sure, but you probally wouldnt know.
    I rolled my zerker as a DPS class? Thats news to me, i orginally rolled my zerker to play with my wifes Templar for a good mix of Defense / Offense and surival rate, doesnt take rocket science to figure that one out thats for sure hehehe.
    Anyone with half a brain my zerker brother would know when not tanking they could run around with a set of back up gear so they could DPS, and when needed to tank can switch out to Plate and tank, how many of your precious little 1k DPS scouts can say the same thing? A big fat chunky ZERO.
    Honestly who cares when or how or why you play your class, as long as you enjoy it, dont let these Guardian wannabes unhinge you because they think you play a more offensive role, in a group point of view, ill get picked over a Guardian hands down, in a raid if im not tanking, i can put on some Chain or Leather to max out my DPS potential that i do have and to buff melee classes to do even more DPS then your parsers can handle, so ethier way, we have very good postions, and seeing as the range of Tank utility we do have, its nice to see they throw the people who do off tank wether it be for groups or raids a small bone with Juggernaut, so for that Sony, i thank you for looking out for people who enjoy to play different styles and who like to experiment and arent looking for such a one sided view of things.
    Stereotype central here at the Zerker boards lately, its been pretty quiet until Juggernaut, hehehe.
  6. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

  7. ARCHIVED-aias Guest

    REMINDER: This is a thread on Juggernaut and how it can be changed for the better. Please start a new thread on your issues with the class.
    It's getting silly. :robotmad:
  8. ARCHIVED-Halcat Guest

    I agree, we need to stop the flamming. It is just as usless as Juggernaut is and it isn't getting us anywhere. Any devs that visit this thread are going to take a look at it and think we are ALL just whining babies. This goes for you Infernus and SugarGirl, as well as it does for Aonein. The personal attacks need to stop NOW.
    If you feel Juggernaut is a good CA, post your reasons why.
    If you think Juggernaut is a bad CA, post your reasons why.
    In both cases, keep your mouth shut if all your going to do is attack a person that doesn't agree with you. If you disagree with their reasons of why Juggernaut is good or bad, then tell why you disagree WITHOUT the personal attacks. This thread that started out about one CA has turned into nothing more then a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fest between a few people. It's quite sickining and very embarrasing.

    As for my opinion of Juggernaut in it's current form.... having just turned 70 and having had the time to play with this CA a little, my opinion still stays the same. Juggernaut is not usefull to the MAJORITY of Bersekers.
    As I stated in an earlier post, I tried Juggernaut solo and I found it not worth using. It isn't efficient (meaning it doesn't deal enough extra damage to make up for the extra hp's I lost) and it nearly got me killed on a mob I could easily kill without using it.
    I have also used it on a few occasions when I asked a guildmate to tank in a group so I could DPS. My latest test was in the Halls of Fate. I found that on it's own, Juggernaut did not pull agro, therefore the defensive penalites didn't matter. Howerver, it is my opinion that it didn't draw agro because it didn't increase my damage output by any significant amount. I did get a few extra crits (2 or 3) on the average encounters and a few more on harder encounters, but honestly, I am less then impressed with the damage output of crits overall. They are not impressive. The extra damage from CA's is extra damage, but again, it isn't real impressive. Adding both the extra crit damage and extra CA damage together was decent. Not impressive but not disappointing.
    The problem I ran into with Juggernaut is when I tried to use it in combination with one Open Wounds or Rampage (didn't upgrade Rampage yet). Against group mobs the combination of Juggernaut and Open Wounds or Juggernaut + Rampage + our AoE CA's was deadly. Quite deadly. I pulled agro without even having to try and when I did, I died. Our group healers could not keep up with the damage I was taking being in offensive stance and having the extra defensive penalties on top of that. Yes, it did do very nice damage for the 5 sec's I was alive, but I spent the rest of the fight on the floor which means I wasn't doing any damage, so it didn't compensate for the loss. On named encounters is wasn't quite as bad as I didn't pull agro as much because there was only one mob that our tank had to keep agro on. However, the 24 secs of extra damage, as nice as it was when Juggernaut was active, was really minimal over the length of the whole fight.
    I have not used Juggernaut while I was tanking and will not use it while tanking as long as the current defensive penalties are on it. If I died when taking agro in DPS mode because of the loss of defense then I can guess what will happen when I am getting beat on by all the mobs in an encounter with it active. I don't think anyone would ever trying using it against a named epic mob and I don't think that was what this CA was designed for, so why even chance it?
    In conclussion, Juggernaut can be usefull in certain situations if you are carefull how you use it, especialy in combination with either Open Wounds or Rampage. However, I still feel this CA is absolutly useless when tanking or solo because of the huge defensive penalties associated with it. In my opinion, this means that this CA will never be used by the MAJORITY of berserkers. My opinion is that this CA, our only new one in the T7 line, caters to a few berserkers that play a DPS role and being that it is our ONLY new T7 CA, I don't think this should be the case. Maybe if we got 3 new CA's like we did with T6, I could see one being used for strictly DPS role, but not in this case.
    My suggestion would be to greatly reduce, or remove, the defensive penalties associated with Juggernaut. In return, remove the extra damage we get using our other CA's while Juggernaut is active (this was never meant to be part of this combat art anyway) and if need be, adjust the percentage chance that we will do extra crit's. Honestly, with the less then impressive damage that crit's do, it probably isn't necessary to change the crit chance percentage if the extra CA damage is removed, but that will have to be determined by testing. With these changes Juggernaut will be usable by the WHOLE berserker community, as it should be with our only new CA. Those playing tanks will be able to use it to help keep agro while in the defensive stance and those that are playing DPS roles can use it while in the offensive stance to do extra damage. I think this is a reasonable compromise and I hope the developers will also see it this way and take my suggestion into serious consideration.
    Message Edited by Halcat on 03-14-200608:28 AM
  9. ARCHIVED-Halcat Guest

    Infernus, I am a "big-time" raider and I agree that Juggernaut is usless to the majority of the berserker community and it should be adjusted. (See my post above).
    However, carrying on a personal fight in this thread with people who don't agree with you or that you don't like is not going to get Juggernaut fixed. Any dev's that come and look at this thread is going to see all the crap and not want to waste their time weeding through it to find any usefull information.
    Please, for the good of the berserker community, I ask you to stop the attacks against Aonein and instead focus on the real issue, what you feel is wrong with Juggernaut and your suggestion/s on how you think it should be fixed. Be the bigger person and let the personal attacks go, or at the least do it in a seperate thread.
  10. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Very well said, Montaigu.

    Aonein,

    "Why would you go down a straight Defense path when Guardians can tank better then us with out it?"

    I'm really sick of this "Guardian's can tank better than us, Guardians can tank better than us" attitude of yours. It's BS. I already told you a thousand times that we can be just as good of tanks as them now that they got "fixed". Of course we all know that the anti-Zerker Guardians and Pallies in your guild have you brainwashed into thinking Zerksers are sub-par tanks compared to them. Which is really sad because they are probably right in your case.

    "Better start reading it from the start and see how many non raid tanks acually state that they think the skill is a good one, and they have used and do use it quite often even when tanking."

    Any tank that is willing to cut their mitigation and avoidance in half and suffer a health drain just to gain a little extra DPS, especially while they are tanking, is not what I would call a good tank. These so-called tanks who say they use Juggernaut while tanking are probably not killing any serious mobs. I'd like to see them try using it in HoF. The mobs in there drain your mitigation bad enough as it is. I'd like to see them tank Solthis with it on. Even while not tanking, I'd like to see them survive his AOEs. Also, anyone can tank if they really want to. Even a mage can "tank" if he finds a healer that's willing to burn all their power on healing him. And that's exactly what we become when we use Juggernaut while tanking - a mage trying to be a tank and making healers waste power on them. And for no good reason. Because we still don't have nearly as much damage as them and never will no matter what. So in actuality it makes us even crappier tanks than mages. And our DPS still sucks compared to them. Wow, what an uber spell.

    "I rolled my zerker as a DPS class?"

    He was referring to Siliwen there. You are the one "who is always contradicting himself and bringing up things that are totally irrelevant to this discussion, like "what gear do you have" "what raid mobs have you tanked" All completely irrelevant."

    "Anyone with half a brain my zerker brother would know when not tanking they could run around with a set of back up gear so they could DPS, and when needed to tank can switch out to Plate and tank, how many of your precious little 1k DPS scouts can say the same thing? A big fat chunky ZERO."


    And that's exactly why our DPS keeps getting nerfed. Thanks for pointing that out. BTW before the recent proc nerf my level 60 Ranger friend was getting 20k DPS, not just 1k. Now they are probably back down to around 10-15k. Still MUCH better than us by far. Like I said there is no way that SOE is going to allow any plate tank to have enough DPS to take any DPS spots away from scouts and mages. They will not stand for it. And you really can't blame them for it either. They have to live with skimpy defenses so they can do more damage. And that's all they really have going for them. And the sad thing about Juggernaut is the fact that it cuts our defenses down so that we are actually weaker than them but we still don't get anywhere near their kind of damage. Like I said, it literally makes us the most gimped class in the game for 24 seconds. Even poor old Chanters are better than us with that thing on. Because it makes us into a class that still can't DPS but then it can't even tank anymore either.

    "its nice to see they throw the people who do off tank wether it be for groups or raids a small bone with Juggernaut"

    When are you going to get it through your thick head that no one here is complaing about having a new offensive ability that makes us more useful outside the MT role? It's the fact that the penalties on it are far to extreme to warrent its use in any situation. THAT is the problem. The fact is they should just give us something that doesn't come with any penalties at all. IMO it doesn't make any sense for us to have to be severly punished in order to use our new marquee ability.
    "I ask you to stop the attacks against Aonein"
    You might want to ask him to stop making attacks against me then. When someone starts a fight with me, I finish it. That's how I am. I don't believe in that "being the bigger person" and "turning the other cheek" BS. In all honesty though it really doesn't matter because the devs never look at this board anyway. They never have. We probably have a better chance of it getting noticed the bigger the stink we make on it. Which is really, really sad.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-14-200611:35 AM
  11. ARCHIVED-Laereneth Guest

    I must agree with what has been stated multiple times above. I find Juggernaut extremely situational and very lacking for a 65th level ancient spell. I believe the penalties associated with it are well outside what is reasonable for the little bonus you get from the skill. Personally, I almost never use it. I won't reiterate or retype previous examples, but other classes have a much more useful 65th level spell that doesn't cripple them outlandishly.

    This skill needs a complete and uderly overhaul!
  12. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    You know I'm sick of people telling me that I'm a moron for wanting to be DPS... I decided to look over the 3 top guilds in this game, Fires of Heaven, Ethereal Legacy, and NE Plus Ultra...

    All of their main tanks are GUARDIANS...

    But I suppose people are going to tell me they stuck with their guardians because they were the main tanks from the beginning, blah blah blah...
    Message Edited by Silelwen on 03-14-200604:23 PM
  13. ARCHIVED-Mjollnyr Guest

    This entire post has gotten silly. Berserkers are tanks that can dps. We dont put out the best DPS, but we can add dps when we aren't expected to tank. The fact remains that we are a fighter subclass (Note: items still say "All fighters" so dont give me the archtype system doesn't exist anymore). Fighters are tanks, while we may have secondary roles, we're tanks first and foremost.

    The issue we started discussing was Juggernaut. The current Juggernaut adds very little to our dps'ing capabilities, but takes alot away from our tanking abilities. There is virtually no balance here.

    At raids, i've played with this spell, on average i'm lucky to see 4-5 crits. Often i dont see any crits during the entire duration. Rarely i've seen 10+ crits. Its very spikey, not very reliable. Going by the average of 4 crits. Assuming i'm hitting for 1k damage (which with a 99.7DR weapon, i hit for 1k with auto-attack consistently) thats 30% of 1k x 4 hits, thats 1200 damage. Over the course of this spell being up, assuming i'm hitting for 1k every time, swinging a 2.5 dly weapon with 48% haste (20% haste item + 28% from berserk). Thats about 20k damage (2.5 x 48% = 1.2s dly, 1k at 1.2s for 24s = 20k). That adds about a 6% dps increase.

    During the course of those 24s, if we happen to be tanking. Which since we are fighter subclasses, it happens alot. Not nessecarily all the time, but alot. During the course of those 24s, we'd end up receiving alot of damage. More then would warrant a 6% average increase in DPS.

    My entire example was full of generalizations. I realise it doesn't work exactly like that. This skill wont garuntee us an increase of 6%, but it could also spike for more. The fact of the matter is, this spell has a poor balance. We give up alot to gain very little.

    While, at raids and i'm not tanking and merely there to perform DPS, i use this ability. But i still dont use it against any mob with an AE, since the mitigation is removed from resists as well. Making us vulnerable to an AE. This skill is very restrictive, and the actual benefits are not sigificant enough to compensate.

    Instead of argueing about what our classes role is. I would hope we could work to constructively add thoughts and feedback of this ability, to make it usable in more then a few isolated situations that basically hinge on us not filling our primary role. Tanking.

    When you speak about abilities and balancing them. When we rampage we use power, but we dont take damage since we are dealing out damage as part of the art. When we stun a mob, we dont debuff our selfs to do it. When we berserk, it doesn't reduce our mitigation. Even our offensive stances and defensive stances give more than they take away. Why suddenly do we have a spell that feels the need to equalize everything. This spell does even a poor job at that. It takes away sigificantly more then it gives back.

    Simply put: This spells benefits are not worth the risk. This remains wether we're filling our Primary role: Tanking, or filling a secondary role: DPSing.
  14. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "I'm sick of people telling me that I'm a moron for wanting to be DPS"

    And I am equally sick of this petty agruement. Why don't you just give up already? No one is saying that you are a moron for wanting to play a DPS class. The problem is that you rolled a tank and you want to try to make it into a DPS class even if it means nerfing the tanking ability clean out of this class for everyone else who plays it the way it was meant to be played and force us to play the way you want just so you can have what you want. That is total BS. People like me who rolled their toon over a year ago to be an offensive tank and got exactly what they wanted and are happy with what we have are just not going to stand for that. How can you expect us to? I'm still not sure how you missed the whole point of this class either when you first started it and after all this time you are just now realizing it. That is just mind boggling.

    And just because most of the uber raiding guilds in the game still have a Guardian as their MT doesn't mean that Berserkers or any other tank classes automatically have to suck at being an MT in raids and are supposed to be DPS classes instead. Honestly where do you get that idea? Does the fact that Guardians are still the most popular MT in the game for raids (which I am not denying is the truth) make SK's and Pallies into DPS classes too? No it does not. They are still tanks just as much as we are and they are in the same boat as we are in raids that already have another tank designated as the MT. SK's are an offensive tank as well but they are still not a DPS class now are they? And the same goes for Guardians. Not every Guardian gets to be the MT all the time you know. That doesn't mean they get to change into a DPS class whenever they want to suite the occasion. And no one is saying that Guardians suck at being an MT now either, not sure why you keep saying that. They still work just fine for that and no one said that we are supposed to be better than them. And the fact is we are not. Remember, the whole point of the CU was to *balance* the classes. You seem to keep forgetting that. It's like you have no concept of the word "balance" at all. Why do you think that we are so special that SOE would allow us to be an uber plate tank that's just an offensive version of a Guardian that can also change into an uber scout-like DPS at the cost of our tanking ability any time we to want to just by swapping out gear or casting some speical ability? Sorry but that's not how it works in this game. It would be nice if it did but unfortunately that is not the case. No other class in the game has that kind of ability so why should we? You get to be either one or the other or you get stuck being a useless hybrid class that no one really cares about (like the old EQ1 Berserkers were and the Brawlers in this game now). That's what happens. Is that really what you want? Not me.

    And look at Furies. They are an offensive healing class that is supposed to be able to do some damage while healing at the same time. They are upset with their new T7 marquee ability because it's nothing more than a DPS attack that stuns them for 16 seconds. I don't know one Fury that is happy with that spell. They can't hardly use it while soloing and it's useless to them in groups when they are there for the purpose of healing. And how many Furies do you know who get invited to be DPS in groups and raids? None that I know of. They are preists and priests are healers. Just like fighters are tanks. Like it or not. And their new spell forces them to forgo their healing abilities to act as a gimped DPS when they are grouped, that is it's whole purpose. Totally useless, just like ours.

    IMO your way of thinking is just all wrong. I'm sorry but you are doing nothing here but grasping at straws to try and justify your mistake of choosing a plate tank to try and be a DPS. And face it, it's just not working and it's never going to. Why you actually bothered to level a Zerker to 60 thinking that it was going to magically become an uber DPS class at some point is beyond me.

    And I am sorry if you think that I am being mean to you but I do feel very strongly about this issue. I will not just stand by and allow this class to be nerfed by a few misinformed people who made a bad choice during their character's creation. And if you are happy playing your Zerker as a DPS-wannabe like Aonein claims to be then so be it. I really don't care. Do what you want but don't expect to have the class changed to accommodate you. That is all I am saying. Now let's drop it.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-14-200607:03 PM
  15. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    And if you are fine playing your class like a guardian wannabe, I'm fine with that too
  16. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "And if you are fine playing your class like a guardian wannabe, I'm fine with that too"

    Oh brother. I guess you think that every tank who tanks is just a "Guardian wannabe" including Pallies and SK's. Don't forget that I am the one who is happy with my class the way it is and you are the one who is not and wants it to be changed.

    Anyways, the whole point of this discussion is to make light of the fact that Juggernaut is a useless ability for either one of us and it needs to be fixed so we both can get some use out of it. So how about we just stick to that now?
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-14-200606:54 PM
  17. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    No, its people like you who cant see we can fulfill other roles other then tank that are Guardian wannabe's infernus006. You just simply have no idea how well other classes can tank infernus006 and you neglect to even look for it, especially when it comes to a experienced Guardian, hell ANY decent raid Zerker who knows how other classes work will tell you right here right now, that Guardians in raids are the better tank, in groups Berserkers are the better tanks, if you cant accept that infernus006, get ready my friend, because as time moves on into more expasions and new Achievement Abilitys come out, you will find that Guardians will only get better.
    Its like you feel your class is doomed and you feel like your jeapordizing the only postion you know how to fulfill, if you didnt put yourself into the stereotype of what everyone thinks you should be, you wouldnt be in this postion to begin with.
    You like many others here infernus006 are the types of people who wont let others tank on raids simply because you would fear them taking your " pole postion ", because thats the type of person you are, you need to try and prove something that has been proved so many times i cannot remember since the game was released.
    As for those who think that rolling a Zerker to main tank raids is all we can do or tank, ask the Berserkers who have been playing since day 1, you know, all the Berserkers who didnt even know we could wear Vanguard armor, the best plate armor in the game, until we hit lvl 20, tell them that there foolish for not tanking and rolling a DPS tank.......
    The reasons for people playing Zerkers has nothing to do with DPS alone, its to do with our survivability rate and our ability to dish out a beating when taking one, that is the point to playing a Berserker, its not all about Tank tank tank.
    As for Juggernaut, why do i like it? Because it gives us some little added extra DPS when in a Offtank role. Like i said, i Demolished a mob for 2100 dmg the other night and the mob wasnt even fully debuffed and i have room to improve for more STR, so all the people here thinking this ability isnt worth it, you need to experiment to see where, how and when are the best times to use it, and of course its not a utility to use when tanking, but not everyone is so hell bent on doing nothing but tank.
    One last thing, please stop trying to force your playstyles onto others, just because people dont tank 24/7, doesnt make them any less of a Berserker, there are many ways to play a Berserker and thats the beauty of this class, we are very verastile, its more then i can say about a Guardian thats for sure.
    Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-15-200610:07 AM
  18. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Na, you started not liking how your class was when you got a spell that couldn't be used while you were trying to be a guardian, you know, by only having one option and that is in the tank position.
  19. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Also wanted to add that shadowknights and paladins have alot of additional utility out of the tank position role, so not fair to compare a berserker not wanting to be a tank to a pally or sk.
  20. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

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