Thoughts on Juggernaut

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Kaleco, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    Target: Self
    Health: 112 to cast and 112 every 2 seconds
    Casting: 2 seconds
    Recast: 3 minutes
    Duration: 24 seconds

    Increase Melee Crit Chance by 30%
    Decrease Defense and Parry by 117
    Decrease Mitigation to all damage by 1560

    -Can only be used while Berserk.

    This is the text as I read it off the spell in the post made earlier. I am curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on this new ability that we recieve at 65.

    Personally to me it sounds like a LOT of fun. I can see Open Wounds + Rampage + Juggernaut being insane melee damage and fun to do. The part that just really makes me cringe is the HUGE debuff it puts on us. 117 Neg Defense is effectively 23.4 Levels of Defense! That means we are effectively defending like a L42. How are you supposed to do this without drawing aggro for sure? Then you have to survive the hits from 65+ mobs when you are tanking like a L42 in terms of Defense. Not to mention the neg 1560 to all Mitigation. The first thought that occurs to me there is "Well [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], can't use that in a raid" I mean taking that much of a mitigation hit I would never be able to stay in on PBAE's.

    Well anyway thats my thoughts for the moment. Lets hear some other Zerkers.



    Message Edited by Kaleco on 02-15-200609:40 AM
  2. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    This is the one other Zerkers need to read and reply too. Thanks!
  3. ARCHIVED-Pegesus11 Guest

    I dont see this spell as being to much of a problem. We're just gonna have to control out dmg output during the time its up. I don't think mixing this with Open wounds and rampage is a good idea we are gonna pull aggro in about half a sec and get waxed. This to me is our Asssinate or Harm Touch something i feel our class greatly needed. I can see popping this spell off at the end of a raid once the mob is under the 15% mark and watching its life drain away. MIxing this spell with our Chaos probably will help balance out some of the Mitigation loss just incase we do pull aggro.
  4. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    I agree with you in terms of raid situation tactic. It makes sense to make up SOME of the loss through Chaos line.

    What I do in an xp group is usually pull two encounters and lay down Open Wounds/Rampage and ker-pwn both encounters. I wonder with the major loss to Defense will this be viable with Juggernaut. Or will I be forced to use it very selectively. Like whenever I am not the MT, which is only in raid situations.
  5. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    I personally don't think it's going to be worth it to use very much in most cases, even in a pure-DPS role. Because it's not like it just costs us some of our health and mitigation to use but it also nerfs our resists and defense skills all to hell at the same time. Mages will probably have a better time surviving an AOE than we will with this spell on. I think it's only going to be moderately helpful in very select situations, kind of like a last-ditch effort type of thing.

    "This to me is our Asssinate or Harm Touch something i feel our class greatly needed."

    Assassinate and Harm Touch do not nerf the resists, mitigation, and defense capabilities of the caster at all though nor do they cost any health to cast or maintain. :(

    I think we are getting kind of jipped with this spell. I guess we will just have to wait and see if that 30% increase in crit chance is really worth it to bother using it at all. Needless to say, I have my doubts.

    "What I do in an xp group is usually pull two encounters and lay down Open Wounds/Rampage and ker-pwn both encounters. I wonder with the major loss to Defense will this be viable with Juggernaut."

    Yeah, I really don't think you'll want to try using this spell while you're tanking at all. That's prolly not a smart idea :p
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-15-200602:44 PM
  6. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    I agree Infernus, it just seems like its use is going to be extremely limited. It is a HUGE hit to Defense and Mitigation.

    I am still interested in using it a few times just to see if it is a signifcant damage/DPS increase.
  7. ARCHIVED-Pegesus11 Guest

    Yeah i would never use this spell in an MT situation. What i mean by this being our Assasinate or HT is that we will finally get at least a chance to do some major dmg with one single attack.

    Like i said i feel this spell is only useful at the very end of a Raid Mob or Named encounter where you not MT and want to get that big hit in to ensure a win.
  8. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    Therein lies my problem Sidious. Not with you specifically, but with the ability.
    -Can't use in MT position. (Honestly I did not make a Zerker not to MT at least one group stuff)
    -Can't use in DPS position for fear of pulling aggro and dieing.
    -Limited use in Raid for above reasons.
  9. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    I also don't like this ability. Using it while tanking or soloing is suicide and an raids I already have problems not getting aggro due to haste and dps buffs bringing me to about +130 % haste and +100 % dps when casting openwounds. I'm doing so much autoattack damage (up to 1k with my Captain's sword from CoAA) that I steal aggro fromt the mt and another buff increasing dmg? I just can't imagine any good situation to use it.
  10. ARCHIVED-Pegesus11 Guest

    Its a kill shot plan and simple we dont have one now we will. We were solid before and now we have that extra little umph to put us over the edge. LIke i said earlier stack it with Chaos or the new upgrade to it to counteract the mitigation loss and you'll be fine and if your tanking a group mob and want to pop it our taunting defense line will increase the loss to defense as well.

    This isn't a spell we are going to go using all time. Its going to take a little finesse and probably a few deaths before we time it just right however i feel that in the end it will be nice addition and a good end the battle shot.
  11. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    Taunting Defense does nothing for actual Defense. It only adds a melee proc and hate.

    Plus you lose 23.4 Levels of Defense and Parry, and 1560 Mitigation.

    Chaos only adds 486 to crushing, and 386 to piercing/slashing. Now that is Adept 1 only, but I would wager that the Master 1 version can't make up the negative you would take from Juggernaut.
  12. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    Actually the master 1 version (that i have) of Chaos, is i think, rather understated. It increases Slashing/Piercing by 560 and Crushing by 648 (cant check coz server downatm). I would say its any berserker's Must have.
    Juggernaught needs to be worth the risk: i think its what that 30% chance of critical hit will do that is the key issue, remeber, i believe it increase critical hits on COMBAT SPELLS TOO so that means your rampage will proc its highest hit and so will your other arts.
    If you consider using Open Wounds + Rampage + Weapon Aegis + Taunting Defence in a kind of 'Rambo Style', on your target, in OFFENSIVE MODE, You do MASSIVE amounts of damage as your procs feed off eachother (weapon procs + taunting def. procs + rampage proc + offensive stance procs = a blur of hit numbers and a dead group encounter). Now Juggernaught would serve to BOOST the damage of each of those procs (+weapon procs?), or at least a 30% chance to, resulting in high Total Damage number.
    BUT, If you look at your health while doing an Offensive 'Rambo' style attack (think of movies when rambo kills 1203912318x 10 to power of 20 bad guys w/ a single machine gun and round of bullets :) = rambo style :) ), esp. if its against a harder mob you loose ALOT*. Now Juggernaught will do this to the point where you nearly die!!
    *(Heres where chaos Master 1 has its bonus, if you use the rambo or w/e you wanna call in Offensive mode with chaos your effectively doing rambo in defence mode with offensive procs, + armour to spare!!!).
    Also: In our Str AA Tree (check Khalads posts) we also get the chance to increase critical damage by xxx when health drops below 50%.
    Neway, This spell maybe designed for a certain niche i.e. it may be most usefull in group situation when the zerker is MT. and you have a particularly tough mob to fight. It pays to concentrate on the hardest mob member and also to kill the rest if ya can to ASAP. With a healer on your side and some armour buffs + Chaos/ Mayhem Master 1... The potential for total carnage of that hard mob is great!! ---- jus have make sure the healers can keep up :D
    There also again might be new mob encounters that require this tatic in KoS.
    There is also Wall of Rage/ Wall of Ferocity (T7)... it does debuff attack speed but at adept III (i think) the T7 Version Wall of Ferocity buffs for 1k + armour. At adept III T6 it does 770 and 880 @ master 1.
    ( The snare, i think if i read correctly, aslo grants the mob 5% chance to dodge incoming damage. The snare itself seems pritty useless imo as its jus a movement debuff - have posted earlyier on this)

    To sum it up:
    Soo i believe the core of this issue lies within the cost effectiveness of this spell, i.e. for what it takes away, what does it give you? Also i believe the tatics with which you use this spell is critical in maximising its deadlyness. The 'Rambo' situation i talked bout above (basicaly open wounds, rampage, weapon aegis etc etc. ) will also prove critical for its application as well as its potential in raids. If the tank is a good tank and has gained alot agro before you begin Juggernaught it might prove its worth yet in raids :).
    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 02-15-200603:14 PM
  13. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "LIke i said earlier stack it with Chaos or the new upgrade to it to counteract the mitigation loss and you'll be fine and if your tanking a group mob and want to pop it..."
    Not of they are caster mobs. Chaos only increases our physical mitigation, not our resists. And Juggernaught reduces your magical resists as well as your physical resists at the same time. We do not have any buffs that increase our magical resists at all except for our defense stance that only increases our cold resist. So if the mob does any other kind of damage, say poison (which is already my lowest resist at the moment) you are going to be screwed.

    "...our taunting defense line will increase the loss to defense as well."
    As was mentioned, Taunting Defense does not increase our defense at all. The only buffs we have that increase our defense an/or parry skill at all (both of which are nerfed really hard by Juggernaught) are our defense stance which increases both defense and parry and Subdued Rage which only increases defense, but the amounts they buff are nothing compared to the amounts that Juggernaught debuffs and you also have to keep in mind that they both decrease our offensive melee skills and attack speed respectively. So would it still be worth it at all to cast this spell with those two buffs on to help counteract the negative effects of Juggernaught while having your melee skills and attack speed decreased at the same time, thus recucing the effectiveness of the spell? That seems rather counterproductive to me. You could also throw Wall of Rage on to get even more mitigation, but of course that decreases your attack speed even further.

    I think the only way this spell would really be worth it for me is if it only reduced physical mitigation, defense, and parry and didn't effect magical resists or drain health. That is just going way too far IMO. Most Berserkers I know, like myself, suffer from low WIS and therefore don't have the best resists to begin with, and considering they are the only thing that really protects us at all from any kind of magical damage, I really don't think we can afford to have them nerfed that hard in any situation. Because if the goal of casting this spell is to have true DPS that is comparable to that of Scouts and/or Mages, hence the nerfs to all of our defensive capabilites it comes with, why nerf the resists too? Scouts and Mages may have less physical mitigation, defense, and parry than we do with our defense stance on but they do not generally have less resists, at least not overall. It doesn't seem quite fair to me.
  14. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    And... Furys Also have a short time buff that increases your mitigation by 1.4k for 30 seconds or so!! and thats tier 6!!!. So aye, it maybe this is our ticket to group invites for inteligent group / raid leaders. With these buffs on, although it may take alotta effort it should all pay off in the end.


    Vladnor The Berserk
    lvl 60 Barbarian Berserker, 40 Armorer
    The Odyessy
    Butcherblock.
  15. ARCHIVED-Khalad Guest

    Tested this out a bit on beta. With it up, you crit like half the time when its up. Crits are somewhat underwhelming though. Its not a bad skill, not as good as our DOF Ancients though. Its still good dps. Of course you would never use this raid tanking, standard group tanking I use it and its ok.
  16. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    Infernus, personally i find that the duration of the rambo (forgive me it the use of that is gettin annoying but i cba to type it all out), is too short for any sustained magic type hits... Juggernaught itself appears to only last for 24 seconds. In that time the magic mob will be recieve obscene amounts of damage which would surve to intrupt its casting alot. After juggernaught/rambo is over i usually use my hotbar setup to quickly change back to defence fighting setup. The magic mobs are also v. squishy :).
  17. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    bah khalad! "Its okay" :(! and "underwhelming" this does NOT bode well :(! So basically what i said a couple posts back bout it combining with our rampage/rambo thingy doesnt mean squat? <<< NERF ALARM >>> Imo. That critical damage NEEDS to be Great - Awsome!


    btw Khalad... DOF Ancients? There something i missed in DOF??
    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 02-15-200603:25 PM
  18. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "Infernus, personally i find that the duration of the rambo (forgive me it the use of that is gettin annoying but i cba to type it all out), is too short for any sustained magic type hits.."

    I'm not sure what you mean by "sustained" magic hits. Are you talking about dot's? If so then don't forget that Juggernaught already comes with one. Also, if a mob has a high damage nuke and it hits you (either directly or from an aoe) and you have like 0 resistance to the type of damage it deals, you can get one-shotted very easily. Then it the short duration of Juggernaught doesn't matter. Because it only takes one second to die from a hard nuke when you have low health and low resists at the same time. And I don't know one magic spell in this game, either from a player or a mob, that takes 24 seconds to cast.

    Furthermore, most mobs that deal magic damage in this game also do some melee at the same time. So having reduced magic defenses on top of reduced physical defenses makes the problem even worse.

    "In that time the magic mob will be recieve obscene amounts of damage which would surve to intrupt its casting alot."

    Since when does recieving damage interrupt casting by itself? I don't think that is the case. As far as I know, the only thing that actually interrupts any casting at all are CA's that specifically interrup, stun, and/or stifle. Damage alone does not interrupt casting. And as far as I can tell, crits are not going to effect interrupts, stuns, and stifing abilites at all, only damage output.

    "The magic mobs are also v. squishy."

    Um, that may be true of no-arrow and some heroic mobs, but I don't think you're going to find too many "squishy" raid mobs...and most of them do have some pretty mean attacks based off magic despite their toughness.

    "DOF Ancients? There something i missed in DOF?"

    Our Ancient Teaching spells. Open Wounds, Insolent Gibe, and Vision of Madness...

    BTW, from what I have seen it looks like our new T7 ability is the only one that comes with any kind of nerfage at all out of all the fighter classes in the game. All the ones I looked at so far (Guardian, SK, Pally, Monk, and Bruiser) do something beneficial for the caster without any detrimental side-effects involved. I haven't checked other classes yet but this is not looking good at all IMO. This quite possibly means that everyone else's new T7 ability can and will be used in any kind of situation whereas ours will be so extremely limited that it will be quite useless in comparison. I'm not sure how anyone can be so happy about this, regardless of thier playstyle and whatever role they intend to fill in this game. :(
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-15-200609:03 PM
  19. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    Infernus, What i ment is that... we would kill the mobs so fast that although we would take damage, they may not have enough time to do enough damage to kill us.. and if they get us below 50% we have 20% inc in Crit Chances (which hopefully would stack with juggernaught) so we do even more damage - this ability is an AA ability so ud have to invest in it. And also it is possible to convert to a defencive mode rapidly after deploying Juggernaught/rampage/openwound etc etc... with use of spell bars (and if you have used em already Wall of xxxx which can effectively help to 'cover' you while u have the weapon slot change delay - tried and tested works for me neway :) )

    Um, that may be true of no-arrow and some heroic mobs, but I don't think you're going to find too many "squishy" raid mobs...and most of them do have some pretty mean attacks based off magic despite their toughness.
    True, but again i didnt mean it should be used on tough tough mobs... I would consider using it the same way i consider using my offence stance w/ open wounds rampaging etc... I will not use it if the mob is a tough one as this would mean id be in big trouble after, if there was an after. But it will help with those pesky mobs and solo mobs... or relativley easy group mobs.

    I still remain certain that this ability if proven to be extremely overly hazardous for a berserkers health will be changed like rampage... And by what Khalad says bout it being "underwhelming" is not too good. You also must be in Berserk mode as well, but i dont think thats too much of a problem with rampage etc on.
    I believe in the Potential this spell has! If nerfed features are fixed if they super bad then it will be indeed a powertool in the zerkers arsenal.
  20. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    Jus thought i might be fun to show some definitions for Juggernaut. This comes from Dictionary.com (proving to be very reliable latley too imho)

    1. Something, such as a belief or institution, that elicits blind and destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed.
    2. An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path “
    n 1: a massive inexorable force that seems to crush everything in its way [syn: steamroller]
    (note: left some parts out of definition got the nice sounding one)
    LOL Now ud be forgivin for thinking that SoE is trying to redefine the definition of Juggernaut as we become very very squishy when using it.. so not exactly an "overwhelming force" and to use Khalad's term again is actually "underwhelming" =o(
    Looked up Drednaught too :)
    --This one sounds v. promising
    1. Dread"naught`\, n. 1. A fearless person.
    --This sound good for some armour!!! :) (jus change cloth to plate )
    2. Hence: A garment made of very thick cloth, that can defend against storm and cold; also, the cloth itself; fearnaught.
    Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
    --This is the name given by Royal navy to its Battleships in Early 1900s (big guns should be Zerker 'Nukes' :) )
    Dreadnaught
    n : battleship that has big guns all of the same caliber [syn: dreadnought]
    Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
    LOL the above definitions use The Webster dictionary (More 'American English' orientated, the Oxford being more Royal English or 'True' English) . The Oxford free online doesnt recognise drednaught and has one definition of juggernaut = the giant articulated lorrys)

    They both (webster and oxford) Agree on this other meaning of juggernaught....
    ORIGIN from a Sanskrit word meaning Lord of the world, in reference to an image of the Hindu god Krishna carried in procession on a heavy chariot.
    "heavy Charoit" Could = Big articulated lorry.
    ^Hmm Thought names werent supposed to reflect religions in EQII in char names and in game content :) heheh

    /Geeky post over :)
    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 02-15-200606:25 PM
    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 02-15-200606:25 PM
    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 02-15-200606:28 PM

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