Thoughts on Juggernaut

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Kaleco, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Florin Guest

    For the love of God, stop with the flaming.

    So what some of you know how to use the spell SOMETIMES and in specific situations?

    You guys miss the point. The question is..

    Are the penalties on the spell worth the extra dps we getting ? and

    Why is it that only us, zerkers, get a spell that can and will kill us using it, while other classes, like the wizard, got a 3x 10k damage, every 3 mins with no penalty at all.

    The spell would be ok at best, IF they would remove the penalties completly.

    27% chance to crit at master 1 is not that big for god sake!!!

    So starting the disscusion from this point, pls disscuss if you think the bonuses are worth the penalties and not how you can use it without dying.

    Couse i dont think we needed a spell that would take extra coution when using.

    This being said, ill run some parses tonight and post the results here just to prove the 27% chance to crit is nowhere near what ppl think it is for having such hard penalties.

    Pls do the same and lets see what real bonus we get from using this spell.
  2. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest


    I really don't get why you feel the need to make all these crazy and false asumptions about me. Here, let's go over them.

    "YOU are the one who wants it to add to your tanking ability and YOU are the one who wants it to 10,000 dps if it doesnt add to your tanking ability."
    and WRONG. I NEVER said that I wanted Juggernaught to be changed so that it adds to our tanking ability. I think it would be nice if it did but I am not demanding that. And I NEVER said that it should give us 10k of damage (not DPS, moron, big difference there) if it didn't add to our tanking ability. What I said was that in it's current form with the current penalties where it CANNOT be used while tanking AT ALL since it makes is WEAKER than mages then it should allow us to do the same kind of damage that mages do. Because that's WHY mages get the DPS that they get, because they have such skimpy defenses. Juggernaut strips us of ALL of our defenses and does not give back in return anywhere NEAR the damage that we would need to be able to do in order to make it worth it.
    "Ive been stating through this entire thread that im happy as it is"

    Yes because you are willing to settle for being second rate, I know. Not me.

    "What we are sick of is you coming here...we are sick of is you trolling every thread...we get the picture"

    Who exactly is "we" here? You seem to be on your own for the most part here about this Juggernaut spell being worth a crap. And then you refuse to post one piece of evidence to prove your claims. Very sad.

    "i wouldnt be surprised if you solo with your shield"

    LOL...sometimes I do. But not always. It just so happens that I have obtained a number of pretty nice 2h weapons in this expansion already and I like having the opportunity to use them without overtaxing any healers.

    "like when you suggested you stood down for the SK in your group cause he was a higher level, you more then likely attempted to DPS with a shield equipped"

    Nooo...I was using my 2h Kettleleader's Katana in my offensive stance for your information. D'er.

    "the other night in zerker channel we were all compairing our DPS and doing upwards of 800 DPS on single target ^^^ herioc mobs, now if you dont call that DPS, then im clueless as to what you would call DPS"

    5-10k. That's what I call DPS. Because that's what REAL DPS classes can do. Makes your piddly 800 seem pretty lame doesn't it?

    "You have no room for open minded conversation when it comes to ways to improve your DPS..."

    Like I have been saying here all along...I don't have a problem with them giving us more DPS. I like DPS. I LOVE DPS. However, I am NOT willing to give up ANY of my current tanking ability just to get a tiny bit of extra DPS that will still not make me into a DPS class. Oh yeah and then there's the fact that I didn't roll my Berserker to be a DPS anyway because in EQ2 Berserkers are NOT DPS, they are TANKS.

    FYI, I would be THRILLED if they changed the Juggernaut spell so that it did nothing else but give us the ability to duel-wield 2h weapons for a short period time. Now THAT would be UBER. And it would still require us tanking Zerkers to sacrifice some of our defense by forcing us to drop our sheilds in order to use it. They could even make it so it can only be used with the offensive stance on and I would still be happy with it. So THERE.
  3. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Man I agree with you so much on this post bro, and Infernus you can sit there and act like you don't mind other options, etc. but you are the one who argued and flamed me so bad over the suggestion that berserkers should have the option to become better DPS than Tanks, you swore up and down that I was a fool and had no clue what I was talking about, but once I went into beta and stopped commenting it's because I realized what I wanted is what SOE wanted as evidenced by our only unique T7 spell. They gave us something that you can't use while tanking and it's a bone thrown to all those zerkers out there who aren't main raid tanks, you know, 99.9% of the population. Anyways, I only half-@$$ read infernus's posts anymore because he is so very critical of anybody elses idea, unless it's similar to his. You don't like juggernaut? Fine, don't use it, just how I rarely use my wall of rage and subdued rage, every once and a while these spells are necessary for grouping, but I definitely don't require them to be an awesome group tank. I have limited raid tank experience, and obviously use them then, but as I have stated before, I have no aspirations to be a guilds main-tank, I don't want to dedicate my life to the game and prefer having the ability to turn it off sometimes, a quality a good main-tank shouldn't have.
  4. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "but you are the one who argued and flamed me so bad over the suggestion that berserkers should have the option to become better DPS than Tanks... I only half-@$$ read infernus's posts anymore"

    If you're not going to bother reading my posts then don't bother commenting on them.

    you swore up and down that I was a fool and had no clue what I was talking about"

    Let me remind you once again that you were the one who said that our AA's were going to be unique to our class and they were going to be ALL offensive options while Guardians were going to get all defensive options in their AA's. And look it turns out we get the exact sames ones. What is your excuse for that?

    "it's a bone thrown to all those zerkers out there who aren't main raid tanks, you know, 99.9% of the population."

    The problem is that it can't be used while tanking at all, not even for just normal groups. And it can't be used while soloing either. And it can't be used in a duel. And I want to know how much extra damage it actually gives us on it's own and then I want you to tell me how you think that's worth the penalties on it. Because it's not. And I don't even have to use the spell to know that. It's plain as day to see just by looking at it. FYI most Berserkers are not willing to resign themselves to being second-rate DPS on raids like you. We either main tank for raids or we don't raid. You guys are actually in the minority here.

    "You don't like juggernaut? Fine, don't use it"

    I am not willing to settle for that. Not when other classes are getting new spells that are actually useful.

    "just how I rarely use my wall of rage and subdued rage, every once and a while these spells are necessary for grouping, but I definitely don't require them to be an awesome group tank"

    First of all those are not marquee abilities. Secondly, if you never bother to use them outside of tanking raids then you are either not fighting any serious mobs or you just don't care about your healers or the rest of the people in your groups for that matter because you are lazy.

    "I have no aspirations to be a guilds main-tank, I don't want to dedicate my life to the game and prefer having the ability to turn it off sometimes, a quality a good main-tank shouldn't have."

    The point is we want something that's actually useful. Not something that can only be used in certain situations and does more harm than good. Like I said I am all for them giving us a new offensive ability that may cost us some of our defense. The penalties on Juggernaut are far too extreme for the supposed gain of DPS from it (which I am still not seeing). That is the whole point of this discussion, not to argue about how we choose to play our characters. Like I said, I don't care how you choose to play the game. If you have fun doing what you do then good for you. But I still feel like we are getting jipped with this new ability and I am not willing to settle for it. Why you are makes no sense to me at all. It seems like you are actually more excited about the penalties on this spell forcing us to be outside of the MT role in order to use it than the actual benefit that it's supposed to provide, which as far as I can see is nothing more than fluff at best. The penalties however are not fluff, they are quite serious. That's my whole point there, that this new spell is hugely imbalanced and it needs to be fixed so it's actually worth using by everyone who plays this class, no matter what role they are trying to fill. Why anyone would disagree with having this spell changed for the better so that everyone can have the optoion of using it for something is beyond me.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-11-200601:02 PM
  5. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    See this is what I mean, you pick apart people's posts and try to make them feel stupid... since you are so good at commenting, please find the quote that says all our berserkers AAs are going to be Offensive....

    My entire post centered around allowing us, thru our AAs, to make a decision, raid tank or added dps... Those options are there. I just hope you weren't serious when you said the berserkers who don't want to be raid tanks are in the minority... I have no issues main tanking, but I do have issues with the time requirement and dedication that come with the position.
  6. ARCHIVED-Kaleco Guest

    So I dinged 65 recently and scribed Juggernaught Adept 1. Seeing as how I started this thread prior to release with some thoughts I had, ultimately concluding with having to see the ability firsthand I thought I would come back and post some thoughts on it.

    ATM I use the Kettleleaders Katana because it has great damage inherently. I have some T6 fabeled, and sit around 3700 MIT while in Offensive Stance.

    In my attempts to use Juggernaught I have used in "Rambo" style. I will come back with some genuine parse logs, but to be honest the damage is a horrific letdown. While in that mode the Katana will slash mobs around me for 1200 and then I will get a Crit for 500. Now I know that Crit is just a boost in dmg, but it is rather dissapointing when you regularly slash for more than you Crit for. Only once since KoS release have I had a Crit worth getting excited about, that was off Stunning Howl and it Crit vs. the whole encounter for more than 1k dmg each!

    The health drain in my opinion is trivial however the defense penalties are quite severe. I was in Sanctum of the Scaleborn last night helping a friend of mine get the updates he needed from the Scaleborn Warriors for the Hat quest. I am 66 now and the mobs are 61-63 or so and are quite blue. The group was just myself 66 Zerker, 68 Templar, and a 66 Bruiser. I pulled a group of two ^^ 63 Scaleborn Warriors and thought this would be a great time to test out Juggernaught. How very tragic it was, not only was I getting beaten like a wet noodle the dmg I was dishing out in return was very very weak. Anyhow spent about 2hrs of doing this using Juggernaught and killing blues. Never died, but honestly for dmg increase that I saw it wasn't worth the healer having to spam his heals just to keep me in the green.

    Personally my vote for a new Juggernaught would go something like this.
    Something similar to Rampage in that a limited number of hits say 10 or so, but it would be a curving scale of dmg. IE. The first hit is 200dmg, 2nd 400, 3rd 600, 4th 800, 5th 1000, 6th 1200, 7th 1400, 8th 1600, 9th 1800, 10th 2000. This of course would be AE like Open Wounds/Ramage.

    Bruisers get Knockout Combination. On a successful combat art they proc 100% this attack, like 200-500 dmg and a 2sec. stun. This lasts 36sec and has not limit to number of times it can trigger. So they chain each attack that is already 500-1000 dmg and add another 200-500dmg on that with a stun! It is incredibly awesome and has NO negatives attached.
  7. ARCHIVED-Narnian_Lion Guest

    Enough with the flames already...

    I think we can all agree on the following:
    1. We are tanks.
    2. We can put out some significant dps.
    3. We can tank well with a variety of equipment and combination of stances and skills.
    4. We all play our berserkers differently. Some fulfil the main tank role more / less often.
    5. We all know how to play our berserker. It is juvenille to assume that anyone who has a disagreeing opinion does not know how to play their class.
    6. We all want a skill that suits our play style.
    7. In its current form, this skill can only be used to tank trivial content.
    8. Some berserkers will rarely to never have a use for Juggernaut.
    It is my personal opinion, that due to point 8, this skill needs an overhaul.
  8. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Yea doing crits that don't exceed the maximum definitely suck, lol. Last night I was tanking and getting a good bit of crits, I'm only 64 so no juggernaut experience yet =( But I have 2 crits worth noting, I crit for 4229 last night against one mob, and then I crit on my berserker rush against 2 4-mob encounters, so I did around 1200-1250 dmg to 6-7 mobs, hehe. I can't wait to figure out ways to maximize criting.
  9. ARCHIVED-blaero Guest

    The only thing I know is, Juggernaut [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing owns. I use it while tanking np. I have never died with it up while tanking. Right now, this is by far my favorite spell, even over master destruction. I love using it, coupled with destruction/ow etc = crazy dps.
  10. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

  11. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    The current form of Juggernaut should be an achievement, not something that is forced on the entire berserker population as our marquis ability. As I stated previously, there are many berserkers who do nothing but tank, and do not want an ability that completely removes our Primary function within a group in order to slightly buff our Secondary function.

    Very well said
  12. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    That was suggested Aonein, and because of the imbalance between the penalties and benefits, it is a better alternative than what we have now imo. If you sat back and looked at what you just suggested, I think you'd see the same thing. The only thing anyone is asking for is some balance to the spell.
  13. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-11-200604:04 PM
    Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-11-200604:04 PM
  14. ARCHIVED-Jvaloth Guest

    Wish all you people that are spamming [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for tat whinage back and forth at eachother would shut the !@#!%! up.

    FOCUS on the problem at hand. Juggernaut's benefits are minimal while its drawbacks are extreme.

    It needs serious tweaking.
  15. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    If you get the chance, wold you mind throwing up some parses? I'd like to see them, and I think it would be much appreciated by the rest of the zerkers here just to see what the capabilities are.
  16. ARCHIVED-Florin Guest

    Go away troll.

    You only lv 67, kinda hard for you to use destruction, dont you think?
  17. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    oops somebody got busted... hehe
  18. ARCHIVED-blaero Guest

    haha that's funny....even though i'm too noob to use it, i do have destruction master! either way, i dont know why you guys dislike this spell so much, i actually think the penalty to defensive abilities is fun. dps isnt a phenomenal increase but it's good. not like it isnt doing anything at all
  19. ARCHIVED-Erick_Stormfury Guest

    Whats even worse then this, is the upgrades progressively get WORSE!!!!!
    going from adept 1 to master...
    you go from mit / resist penalties of 1500 to 2100.
    your defense / parry penalties etc go from 70 to 100+
    dont remember if the damage you take goes up too.
    the crit percentage goes up, from 20 to 24 or 26 cant remember.
    (i dont remember the exact specific's but those numbers are close)
    I'm waiting to see if this changes before scribing it, in its current state, i'll never use this skill... EVER. I'm the MT on raids, and am normally always the MT in groups unless specifically ask someone to take over for me to give me a break.. (which is almost never, because frankly i love being a tank, hence the reason why i created a zerker....)
    overall what i've noticed, is in t7, zerkers get very little improvement to the damage they were doing as opposed to what others get. our spells are very minor upgrades. whereas other classes get a significant boost. but honestly, i don't even mind this, because i've been very happy with my class.
    I do wonder though, if the parsing they do to keep track of, what each class is doing, is not some what skewed. because when i'm MT'ing either within a group or on a raid, my dps SKYROCKETS! but its mainly because of the damage shields and all the spells that people put on me. wizards put one on that proc's 1000+ proc each time it fires off, i usually have 3 or 4 different damage shields all applying. and because it becomes "MY damage shield" does the damage, every parser adds this to MY damage. its usually puts me close to the top in dps.
    I really start to wonder, if this isnt even more profound with guardians. we at least do some pretty good damage ourselves, guardians dont have nearly the damage output as us, but i wonder if there being held back, because of sony's way they keep track of class damage output.
    I've seen them throw out insane dps being done by both guardians and zerkers, and the only way i've been able to even get close to those outputs is being raid buffed with all those damage shields. you really can't count someone elses damage shield as part of MY dps in my opinion.
    anyway, i'm very disappointed in the juggernaut spell, like most of us, but maybe it will get better if they at least fix the progression, make it so that the spell gets better as you find higher and higher levels of it, not vise-versa.

    Message Edited by Erick_Stormfury on 03-12-200611:04 AM
  20. ARCHIVED-Shurinow Guest

    Just like to say... this spell is pretty sweet. It doesn't pull aggro off the tank.. unless you go stupid and add it to both rampage and open wounds. It's really just a nice dps boost--when you aren't tanking. Put this thing on and use your Slay, you'll hit for at least 1,200. Well, I only have the Adept 1 of it now, but I am definitely upgrading it to Adept 3 first chance I get.

    that's my 2 copper.

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