Let's get something straight. We are not complaining that they decided to give us a new offensive skill. I like offensive skills just as much as any DPS. I LOVE Rampage and Open Wounds. And I don't mind our offensive stance either, I'm glad we have it. The problem is that use of our new ability is so extremely limited and the penalties are so not worth it that it's totally useless to the vast majority of the people who play a Berserker in this game. It's not right and it's not fair. And every time I see another class using their new marquee ability I get angry. I've already talked about the Wizard's Fusion. That thing is freaking awesome. 7-10k damge AOE, straight up. And last night I was grouped a Pally. You know what they get? They get a buff that makes them proc 500 points of damage to all surrounding enemies every time they get hit with a DoT. Imagine that. It makes me so mad that every other class in the game is getting something that will give them at least a small but beneficial advantage in just about every situation they find themselves in while our new spell can only be used in very select circumstances or it will get ourselves and/or our groupmates killed for sure. And for the vast majority of us that is something that we will never even consider because the risk is far too great for the reward. We can't use it while MT, solo, or in duels. And I still don't see it being that useful in raids either. I really think that we ALL are getting majorly jipped here. Once again our new spell is the only one that comes with any penalites, and it comes with way too many. And I agree with Sugar that whining for more DPS isn't going to get us anywhere in raids. We are not a DPS class and we never will be. If they want to give us something that will help us in raids outside of the MT role, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But sripping off all of our defenses just so that we can be capable of more bit more DPS isn't going to work, especially when we don't have any ranged CA's at all and there's always going to be other classes that our DPS pales in comparison too, with our without Juggernaught. "i parsed this ability while off tank mode the other night in offensive stance, and all i can say is it fits the description of Juggernaut perfectly. Its a awesome ability, thats all i can say, with the right weapon equipped, its dangerous." Why not share the parses then? I would also like a screenshot of your persona window showing your stats with this spell active. And I would like to know if the extra DPS is really that uber then how do you keep from getting aggro so you don't get one-shotted while still making it worth it? See, I don't play a DPS class so I don't know these things. "Would appreciate if you would all learn a way to use the ability to your advantage instead of trying to get the skill revamped before it turns into rampage before they nerf it and change it a million times before they just give up and leave it." I am not scribing this spell with the way it is right now. Because there is no sense in it. I know for a fact that there is no way that I will ever want to use it in any situation. There is no real advantage to it whatsoever as far as I can see. And IMO there is really nothing they can do to this spell to make it any worse than it is, so revamp away! At least then there's a chance that it will get changed into something than I can actually use sometimes. "I use it while tanking for groups also, with the right group set up you can use this and not even take a hit." Why do we have to get a new spell that requires a special setup for it to be of any use? No one else does. "I don't want my class based exclusively off being a raid tank..." Why not? If we can tank raids then we can tank instances and XP groups with no problem. A tank is a tank. A Wizard is a DPS class plain and simple. They can't heal and they can't tank, ever. They can't do anything else or fulfill any other role besides DPS in any group or raid. And their fragile nature causes the rest of the group to have to be more watchful over them so they don't get killed and have the group's DPS be cut in half. Why should we have such an advantage over them that we can fullfil their role and another one at the same time or be able to switch between the two on the fly? If that was actually the case then that would be awesome. But it will never be allowed. Because that would make us way too overpowered and the casters will not stand for it. So what we get is a thing that cuts our defenses down so much that we literally become more fragile than a Wizard but we still don't have anywhere near their DPS. What kind of a trade-off is that, honestly? "as most already know in the raid scene, extra plate classes are pretty much a waste for a raid anyways, I'm just glad my friends let me come along most of the time..." I realize that. But such is the life of a plate class. That's what you get for picking one without having any intention of working for an MT spot. "I think the people posting here aren't necessarily looking for a change to the skill so that they can shoot for the MT role. They are looking for the benefit of spending a year in the game to get to level 70 that will make their character fun to play and help them get the most enjoyment from the game in general, and the end game specifically." Exactly and Juggernaught, in it's current state, does not afford that in any way whatsoever. "Aonein, I can't understand how you can come here as a beserker and say "I survived using juggernaut, I don't want a good and usefull spell"." HAHA good point. "As for how, when, where to use this ability, what is wrong with you people? Does everyone need to be hand fed these days or can people still think for themselves?" What is wrong with you? Why do you think it's ok for them to make it so our class is forced to jump through hoops to find a way to use our one new ability in this expansion when it's not that way for any other class in the game? Don't you see what a huge disadvantage this causes us when compared to other class's new abilities? Why are you so opposed to them changing it for the better? Why can't they change it to something that all Berserkers can use, whether they are tanking, soloing, or filling in for DPS in raids? What is wrong with that idea? "No tank in their right mind would give up 1500 mitigation vs everything, plus hp's, plus lower defense and parry, just for some extra dps. We are not in the group for dps." Exactly. And I don't need parses to be able to tell that the DPS gain from Juggernaught is nowhere near worth the penalties associated with it. Even when I am not the MT! Hence, why I refuse to scribe this spell until they have drastically changed it for the better. Because right now the only thing that Juggernaught does is strip us of the one thing that makes us worth anything to anyone, our ability to take hits so we can keep aggro from our friends. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-08-200602:02 PM
Can not put it any plainer then that Let us fill the role we were designed to fill and give us a CA that enhances that role, not strips it away. BERSERKERS ARE TANKS!!!!!!!
This post was made by one of my guildies on our guild forums: From what I understand, Critical hits work as follows. A critical does 30% more damage than normal. The base chance for a critical hit depends on the con of the mob. So you will critical more often against green mobs versus orange mobs. There is some speculation on what the base critical hit rate is. Parses have shown a rate of 0.6 percent but I don't recall which con mobs they are. I'll have to dig up that info later. Critical hit modifiers does not seem to affect the base chance. I think it is added to the base chance. Atleast I hope it is this way otherwise its totaly useless for rogues to get the 4th AP in the Strength line. Example: 0.6 base + 1.7 modifier. Total 2.3% not 0.6 * 1.017 modifier. Total 0.612% Modifers to crit chance based on mob con are probably done after adding crit bonus. But further parsing is needed to prove that. Assuming that Critical hits work the way I think they do, maxing rogue critical hit ap would give a total of + 13.6% more critical hits for a total dps boost of 4%. So, essentially, Juggernaught give us an 8% DPS boost for 24 seconds... at 800 DPS, We'd be doing 64 points of damage every second.... that works out to 1500 damage for half our defenses.... I still say bleh. Just for kicks and giggles, if you could sustain 2500 DPS over a period of 24 seconds, then you would do 12800 points of damage.... close to what Fusion Master I does on a single mob. I've never seen 2500 sustained by a zerker. Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-08-200610:45 AM Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-08-200610:46 AM
Please remove the penalties from the spell. NO OTHER CLASS GETS A LV 65 SPELL WITH PENALTIES BUT BESERKERS!!!! 27% chance to crit is a joke, is not even that high. Message Edited by Florin on 03-08-200611:15 AM
Remember... The Berserker is the personificaiton of unbridled aggression and fury (and we can't hardly be unbridled if we can't take any hits at all). They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once (there's no question about that, thanks to Rampage, Open Wounds, and our other AOE's and damage procs). Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies (that part speaks for itself, and says that we are meant to tank). It is plain to see that Juggernaught does nothing good for our class. We are not meant to be a fragile glass cannon that has to control their aggro so they don't get *****. That crap is for the casters and last I checked I didn't make a caster. I made an offensive tank that can deal some damage while taking hits at the same time. We are supposed to be able to go all out all the time and not have to worry about taking some hits or stealing someone else's aggro. That's why you won't see me in a lot of raids that already have an MT. I am not interested in having to control my aggro and stay out of harms way, that's why I made a Berserker! And this spell does nothing but cripple us to the point that we are worthless in nearly every situation I can think of. It's not going to give us the extra DPS that we would need in order to take DPS spots away from any scouts or mages. And they are never going to give us an ability that allows us to do that. Juggernaught does nothing more than annihilate our tanking ability, the one thing that we really have going for us in this game. How do they expect anyone to be happy about that? Even if you don't like tanking at all and are stuck filling extra spots on raids because your guild already has an established MT, are you really so happy that all of us are getting screwed out of a new marquee spell that we all can actually use for something, just because it reduces our tanking ability? It doens't just reduce it, either, it totally annhiliates it. And for what? Just so some poor bastard in a raid can feel like he's doing a little extra damage, IF he manges to get it off at just the right time of course, which is not likely to happen very often. How can this be a good thing, honestly? Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-08-200603:55 PM
berserker: juggernaut- increase melee crit 20% combat arts base dmg increased(unknown) decrease parry/def 70 decrease mit/cr/fr/mr/mr/dr/pr/dr by 1560 Guardian: obliterate- 444-741 dmg decrease target-def/parry/deflection by 47 Paladin: castigate- dispells 86 levels of cr/fr/mr/mr/dr/pr/dr SK: despoil- decreases target mit, 2160 pestilence- 88-108 aoe every 2 seconds(16sec dur) monk: dragonbreath- aoe 31% casting slow 65-80 aoe initial and every second(8sec dur) Bruiser: knockout combination- (need info) *note some classes i put 2 spells under i don't know which are the ancients since i just examined advanced alchemist teaching 6 and listed the stuff, please say which is which and which is wrong, and i'll edit. *note* we are the only fighters so far with detriments (possible other ancient spells of other classes, brimstone,stone sphere,silencing palm, Message Edited by Epyx on 03-08-200602:47 PM Message Edited by Epyx on 03-08-200602:48 PM Message Edited by Epyx on 03-08-200602:54 PM
No matter how you look at it, Juggernaught just plain sucks and is probably the crappiest spell they have ever put in the game. And of course we are the unfortunate ones that have to get stuck with it. Seriously, even a totally useless fun spell is more appealing than this. Well I think there is still a chance that it will get changed if we have enough people making a big enough stink about it. We really need to rally up and let SOE know that this spell is not acceptable in any way whatosever so that they will at least consider changing it to something that is half-way decent. And we don't need people coming here and telling us to shut up about it just becuase they used it once and manged to survive because they had a special setup at the time. How about we get something that we can use any time, anywhere, like everyone else in the game? IMO we need something that doesn't have any penalties at all, even if it's only marginally beneficial. I don't want anything that reduces my defenses OR my damage output for anything. I think our DPS is pretty well balanced with our defenses as it is and we don't need anything that totally offsets it one way or the other. What we could use is some extra utility that will have some kind of use whether we are soloing or raiding. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-08-200604:09 PM
Aye Infernus, I agree, we do need more dev attention on this one. There is one part of the post I don't agree with though: And we don't need people coming here and telling us to shut up about it just becuase they used it once and manged to survive because they had a special setup at the time. We need people that support the spell to post as well. I want to hear everyone's opinion, especially when they can bring something to the table in defense of Juggernaut, such as a parse or damage in vs. damage out. I'd likt to see before and after DPS numbers sized up with before and after dmage taken numbers to see if there is a good balance there (i.e. are we basically taking 1000 points damage to deal 1000 points damage). In addition to that, I think we need to be fair to the people that do enjoy their spell and give them the option of voicing their opinions without the fear of being flamed to death. That's really what the forums are for. So far there is over 5 pages of posts on this, however, and no response. I'm thinking we may be stuck with it.
"We need people that support the spell to post as well." I agree, you misunderstand my meaning. I mean we don't need people who come here only to flame us just because we want to have the spell changed when they don't have anything to back up their claim that it's actualy worth anything. Thats all I mean.
Anyone remember "Juggernaut"? Don't recall him being a ****. hehe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut_(comics) :robotvery-happy:
(actually) maybe the devs saw the xmen x3 trailer and thought of that juggernaut instead =( *don't have link will find one but NOT very juggernautlike imo*
Exactly, a juggernaut is supposed to be a big, strong killing machine that can take punishment just as well as it can dish it out. Kind of what we are like already without this spell. HMM.
NM.... I had a picture of JuggerNOT from X3... but it didn't work right Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-08-200603:40 PM Message Edited by SugarGirl on 03-08-200603:41 PM
I speak the truth no matter how sad it may seem. I notice you left out the extra Hate Gain asscioated with this line, mustnt be worth it at all seeing as you dont even mention it huh? Increased ATK speed from INT line? Well unless there is some cap that we as players havent found yet, then i highly suspect that there is a cap in place because i can get my haste up and over 200%, so yeah, ethier there is a cap on haste or they will nerf it, one of the two. The equivalent dmg we lose which you all act like we lose 500 DPS when not tanking is made up with our Offensive stance, unless of course alot of you just like to run around in Defensive Stance when not tanking of course........and by the way, i do more DPS in a offtanking mode then i do when tanking, not sure how you all think you are doing all your DPS while tanking when your in a Defensive stance ohh but thats right, thats why some of you are taking the WIS line to remove all the penalties, so you can do DPS, but hang on, arent we tanks? If you wanted to get really technical, then i could go another and say that with Casters / Scouts increased chances to crit now and only getting higher and higher as they find items that increase their chances to crit and do their AS lines that also increase it again, we do have to increase our chance to crit also to help balance the system out seeing we control our agro with a mix of DPS and taunts, so to balance that out, we have to crit. I dont think alot of you acually quite understand how DPS does play a pretty large role in agro control. Oh and yes, for those who dont know, there is items out there that increase your chance to crit, you just need to find them.:smileywink: Why are you basing this combat art around another art from our AS lines? And what exactally are you refering too that can be maxed out by gear? STR? Crit Chance? As for making the right group set ups, do you go into a instance zone with the wrong classes that you know arent going to be able to help your group complete it? Or do you just like to wipe for the fun of it? I know i like a challenge and will make some real werid groups to create a challenge, but i wont walk my group into a death trap thats for sure. :smileyvery-happy: If you guys cant figure out how to get the most out of your Berserker by now, then i think your playing the wrong class, most of you who are asking how to use this skill are over lvl 60..............:smileyindifferent: Hmm lets see, depending on your acual HP at the time is how much life is "sucked" away as you say, but if im not mistaken our Tier 7 HP regen ability, Rage ( not Bloodcraze ) is 72 HP per tick adept III, so i fail to see how your life is being sucked away when this art alone is negating the HP drain of the Juggernaut art all together. Now your relating us to wizards? It just keeps getting better and better. I take it you havent seen how pissed Warlocks are about it and i would like to assume that it will get nerfed, how long it will take is beyond me. By the way you failed to mention that the Fusion ability is on a 3 min timer, so we all know how useful that is when we have 3 min timers on some of our own arts......... To end up, the penalties have already been reduced on the art once and i find it highly unlikely that they will remove them alltogether, would be nice if they do, but i have found many uses for it, while not ground breaking uses, it still comes in handy, wether im tanking or not. Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-09-200609:50 AM
Let me reiterate the fact that unless we get at least 10k of damage out of Juggernaut then the penalties on it are not even remotely worth it. If I'm going to be made weaker then a mage then I want to be able to get at least the same amount of damage as them for the duration of the spell. It should also allow us to cast all of our CAs from a 25m distance too. I'm serious. THAT would make it useful in raids and then we could kite mobs with it on while solo. I know that sounds crazy but that is what would be needed to make this spell in its current form of any real use at all. "By the way you failed to mention that the Fusion ability is on a 3 min timer, so we all know how useful that is when we have 3 min timers on some of our own arts..." Umm...Open Wounds has a 3 minute reuse timer. You think it's useless? So does IG. So does Rampage. Rescue has a 10 minute reuse timer and VoM has a 30 minute reuse timer. All of them are very useful spells. Oh and BTW...Juggernaught also has a 3 minute retimer...does not it? So what exactly is your point man? Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-08-200607:00 PM
:smileyvery-happy: This coming from a Zerker who advocates himself as a tank, but wants to take the wisdom line for more DPS..............wow is all i have to say.
Aonein, you really do need to specifically tell us how, when, where you use "JuggerNot". The point of this thread is the uselessness of this art and how it can be improved. You're very good at conclusory statements but no substance to back it up. So we'd like to hear the "truth" no matter how sad it may seem.
