MIS dropping fabled set gear REVISITED - (Keep it real)

Actually, in Early Beta the progression from EH to IS was extremely clear. Guilds like second dawn made quick and significant progress in the zone in beta. As a consequence, at the very last minute Dymus (iirc) went through and compeletely revamped the zone difficulty and some/most of the loot (which still sucks). Anyways, this combined with a lack of communication between developers led to the laughable confusion that exists today.

When you get to third floor EH, you are rewarded with "Stakes" to kill vampire bosses when their health gets low. It doesn't take a genius to see that this was the intended route to kill Inner Sanctum named. The developers did not forsee aoe avoids and high dps as an easily alternative. You also get items after killing wuoshi that prevent Mayong's "delevel".

If the progression were intended to be IS -> EH, wouldn't we see items to help us in EH dropping from IS? No, and we don't. We see it exactly the opposite.

No matter what way you look at it, it sucks. If it is supposed to be IS -> EH, your reward for a whole day+ of actually defeating challenging encounters and legions of trash mobs is significantly less than what you get in one hour in sanctum. If the progression is EH->IS (the obvious intent), then everyone beat the boss of EoF before even getting to wuoshi, and any group of 24 players can farm the crap out of endgame set gear.

Very, very, very poorly done.

Aye, I really hope the epic line + unrest will clear up progression issues on whats what.
The stakes would make MMIS easier, but I doubt the devs "missed" anything when it comes to tactics others use to kill these mobs. Our raids in MMIS were never setup any type of AOE immunity to kill mobs in there. And we have only average raid DPS. Nothing like what some of the other guilds out there are doing DPS wise (many claim 20k DPS zonewide).
If we continue to progress thru MMIS at our current rate, I'm just gonna have to assume MMIS is supposed to be a gear-up zone. Were killing these mobs so far with simple straightfoward tactics... power healing, hard debuffs, then steady dps and jousting when possible. Nothing special or tricky the devs wouldnt have thought of.
Wushi dosent drop Tunarian Wolfsbane, tho he does give you one if you complete the Tunare Diety quest. I guess thats close enough to suspect the intended progression. However until it actually drops from a kill, Wushi isnt a factor just yet.
If the progression is EH->IS (the obvious intent), then everyone beat the boss of EoF before even getting to wuoshi, and any group of 24 players can farm the crap out of endgame set gear.
Still dosent seem obvious when a dev stated EH was the top-end EoF raidzone. Like said above, Wushi dosent drops TB (atleast yet), and 24 players have always been able to farm "gear-up" zones in our expansions. In KoS it was stupid-easy because you could get relic AND the class legs within a few minute. Atleast now they'll only get 1 or 2 shoulders pieces once a week.
I also strongly feel that MM is not the EoF boss. So hes orange and drops the class BP?
Vyemm dropped the class BP also...
I dunno, maybe its in the lore MM is the boss. I'm gonna wait it out and see for myself.

The mobs within Inner Sanctum have been raised in difficulty to reflect the quality of the items they drop.

Looks like the devs agreed with the people saying the zone was too easy.

[I cannot control my vocabulary] straight.

Still haven't seen the EH loot, but so far update notes are promising. Thanks for listening, I mean it!

I guess loot upgrades are going to happen every expansion /sigh. Though aniksis is out so who knows

update>

Review of all known links on test. Only item changed significantly was a 1h off gardener (actually a good upgrade). Everything else is still garbage... /sigh

Even the worst drops on the third floor didnt get changed~

(aka only gardener and wuoshi loot changed - and lots wasn't and is still bad)
Message Edited by snarkteeth on 01-23-2007 06:47 PM

maybe now all these people crying "but were not uber" will shut the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and progress through raids like the rest of us did in t7.

Because it's clearly the gear that's holding them back.

Yup.

Ok,
do you have some kind of raid progression ? Or a link where i can find it ?
Where can a raid go, which is KoS fabled, to gear up (no Group instances please).
Shall we go Emerald Halls then ? Or Freethinkers Hideout (wtb Strat for Othysis ;-) ? Maybe i'm missing something here...
We needed the time since EoF started, last week we had for the first time Cheron Viswin killed in there (so, we have 5 out of 6 nameds -> Mayong is missing, of course) and now its even harder ? Ok, we'll test it, maybe we are good enough (i hope that some levels under "uber" will suffice) to kill the Nameds in there.
While i have no problems with raising them a little, i am a pessimist in that way, that maybe because Sony may have had in the past time, slightly, overdone finetunings... if you get what i mean :smileywink:
I think the difficulty of D'Liszta and Cheron is fine, V'klekta (sp?) could be beefed up a little, maybe the tacticians armor and enynti, too... but... a little...
We'll see how it is now after the tests....
Regards, theriatis.

maybe now all these people crying "but were not uber" will shut the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and progress through raids like the rest of us did in t7.
Only if by progression you mean farm relic. We had it easy man, so dont act like you did anything special in T7a.
The only thing "earned" was bragging rights on who cleared what zones first. Otherwise 12 players could farm everything they need twice a day with zero difficulty in labs. Bah.
Increasing MMIS difficulty really isnt necessary based on my experience in the zone and the quality of drops.

And if you actually think the MMIS drops warrant more difficulty...

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=90586#M90586
... the picture says it all.

Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 01-24-2007 04:29 AM

If you are KoS Fabled, then you can currently do all of EoF raids. As of right now(ignoring the change), everything is killable in KoS Fabled. Everything. Gear has never been something that holds good guilds back. If you can't kill the named, that means you need to get better at the game, not you need better gear. Mobs in this game don't block progression because of the need to farm up better gear, they block progession through requiring you to figure out the encounter. Since you can't figure out the encounter, you fail.

Just because your guild is fully Fabled doesn't give you a ticket to beating encounters. It only gives you the means to do it, you actually have to be good at the game to kill them. Does MMIS Difficulty need to be changed? Yes, yes it does. The loot drops from the mobs in comparison to other "supposedly" the same difficulty or barely lower zone(Emerald Halls) is a huge dent in raid progression.

I will say that beating any of the mobs in there was a total joke and gave 0 accomplishment for killing them. Oh yah, we beat this gargoyle who seems like a mob out of Halls of Seeing! Or, oh yah we beat this Vampire with 4 adds who did, well did he do anything at all? Or, oh yah we beat this Vampire who did nothing untill the end besides a de-level! Then there's, oh yah we had a scout tank a mob and then all was good. That's all the difficulty there is to Inner Sanctum, there isn't any.

And you want to see the progression, well let's see. Clockwork was supposed to be KoS-difficulty level. Freethinker's is supposed to be a weak zone that was easy to clear, and may take a few trips to figure out Treyloth. Then we get to Emerald Halls, which starts off easy and progress to a bit more difficulty. Then with the drops in Emerald Halls(a stake that does 3.1% of damage to a Greater Vampire that is at 6% or lower HP), you go in and beat Inner Sanctum.

Well my concern is what does that statement mean?

Usually it takes a few patches to get things balanced.

So patch 1 no one but best raid guilds can kill if even them.
Patch 2. mobs nerfed to heroic status, everyone farms like mad.
Patch 3. mobs return to their original state or midly more difficult
Patch 4 mobs working as intended...

And there are raids that don't find all the nameds in here a joke.

In which case if they are finding the mobs difficult in there now, then they should probably get better at working together and raiding, if they want to continue raiding. As KoS = Easy raiding, Clockwork = Easy, Freethinkers = Easy-Medium, TFD = Medium, EH = Medium-Hard, IS = Hard, Avaters+Pumpkin = Hardest. That was supposed to be the progression I figured.

so what your saying is unless you have 8-12hrs to dedicate to clearing EH ..then you cannot raid MMIS ..so for your 40$ your 8-12month's content before next expansion consists of clockwork and FTH ..well thats [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing awesome.
you can carry on raiding the [I cannot control my vocabulary] in kos ...boring as [I cannot control my vocabulary] ...or you raid clock which takes 40mins tops ...and you raid FTH 2-3hs ...and thats it ..because unless you are hardcore and i mean able to 1 raid for 8hrs + at a stretch and 2 able to leave your entire raid force logged online so you can come back the next day and spend another 8hrs clearing from where you left off ...you cannot hope to have a chance in hell of clearing EH...so cannot clear EH means you cannot do MMIS because thats supposed to come after EH ..are you guys for real ? there is maybe and im being generous here 16 guilds WW who have the time to play this way so for 16x30 = 480 people roughly spread across all servers get to experiance all the the raid content .....with that i mean CFM / FTH / EH / MMIS / contested / Avatars ....the other 500+ people per server who raid end game content get [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing shafted because they cant dedicate 30+hrs per week to EH and clearing it ....thats your idea of progression you need to wake the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and smell the coffee
500 server wide / 500per server x 20 servers = 10,000 players WW get shafted cos you [I cannot control my vocabulary]ed up cry baby morons want progression ?!?!?!?
since when has progression been about 30+hr raid zones ??!?!?!? im all for progression ive got [I cannot control my vocabulary] all interest in a zone that takes the best guilds WW 8rs to clear to the boss in it
fix EH and by that i mean get rid of 80% of the trash in there so your looking at 3-4hrs tops to clear to the boss and then by all means make it so that you cannot kill mobs in MMIS unless you cleared EH cos at moment it [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing stinks to high heaven
i didnt buy an expansion to get penalized because i cannot dedicate 8hrs at a stretch to raiding 1 zone ...nor to have my entire guild stay logged online in a zone to keep it open for the next days attempts.
Well mr Grimble you seem to be listening to the select few here with your changes ...and dont get me wrong im all for challenging content make the mobs challenging ...not 2000000 trash mobs that mean you need to dedicate days of effort to clear it to get to the boss's
you really willl lose a significant part of your player base if this situation is not adressed and balanced asap.
EDITED to further clarify what im talking about
monday zone in clear to 1st floor boss ..if able kill first floot boss then start clearing trash. out of time after 8hrs leave everyone online in the zone and go sleep
tuesday home from work all raid is in the zone already ....carry on from where left off ...if able kill 2nd floor boss if not keep trying till out of time ...again all leave pcs on and raid online in zone ....
wednesday night either keep working the boss of 2nd floor ...or your on 3rd floor and working wuoshi ...keep going till out of time
thurs night same again ...
friday same again uptil out of time then people can leave zone as raids are off for sat / sunday
for guilds and raid forces that cannot do this its 8hrs clearing first floor and trying the boss till killing it ...leave the zone ....next raid day ...spend 8hrs clearing the trash on the first floor and trying the boss again
people who cannot leave there whole raid online are penalised by having to kill the same trash over and over again ...where as the hardcore guilds DO NOT as they keep the zone open...of course the hardcore guilds have no problems with tons of trash ....THEY DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT ....thats why they dont mind it ...they clear it once per week
this problem is further compounded if you want to work on the second floor boss and your not hardcore ...you have to clear all the trash to that boss every single visit ...and the 3rd floor ? ...well wuoshi could be as hard as tarinax is currently because the n0 of guilds that have the time to play non hardcore have next to no chance of ever having enough time to clear to him ....and if they somehow manage to clear to him and get a handful of pulls on him ...guess what ? they have to leave the zone ...so that means next time they cannot just come back and carry on working wuoshi ...they have to clear the WHOLE zone again
FIX THIS ...either make it so that hardcore guilds cannot keep the zone open ......then they will do all the complaining needed to get the trash toned down as they wont like having to clear it all every single visit ...or reduce the trash ...the numbers and there hps.
Message Edited by TheEasternKing on 01-24-2007 04:12 PM

Ahh, I'm sorry you can't raid all of the content because you don't have enough time. I'm sorry, but this is the whole I pay the same $15 as the next guy argument all over again.

Kinda stupid if you ask me...
I agree that first couple named need a boost in MMIS but if they make the place harder than EH then......[I cannot control my vocabulary] this game. I don't have 10+ hours to clear trash in EH (that drops nothing BTW) to get geared up to do MMIS.

LOL
I wanted a longer raid zone instead of the 1 room instanced ones but dedicating a whole day clearing trash isn't my idea of fun.
The people that say they enjoy clearing that zone must like sticking pins in their eyes and cutting themselves.

so i cant spend 8hrs a day holding a zone open to go back day after day is your idea of progression ?
please tell me where i said i want named encounters making easier ?
i run a guild we raid 2 days a week .... i fail to see why i cannot dedicate 30+ hrs to one zone is me asking for ezmode
and lets get one thing straight pinsky i didnt say i pay 15$ i said i cant play eq2raid 8hrs a day to do one zone ....i can raid 5-6hrs sat and 5-6hrs sunday ...in Kos FD that was enough time to do all the raids that are instanced ...show me where it says raid progression is 30hrs a week in 1 zone ?
yeah you cannot, thanks much.

Show me where it says 30 hours of raiding a week isn't raid progression. Yep, that's right you can't. You're just grasping for straws. If you want to be able to raid everything, you have to be willing to raid a lot if you want to see everything. You are making the I can only play for x hours but I want to see the ENTIRE game. That's exactly what the whole I pay $15/month argument is about.

What is wrong with having 1-2 zones dedicated to the hardcore raider? This whole game is geared towards the casual player why can the hardcores not have 1-2 zones geared towards us. It seems most of the complaining about MMIS getting boosted is the casual guilds. If you are as casual as you say you are you will raid what 1-3 days a week? So you raid Clockwork Menace factory and DT one day (which btw DT loot is better than 75% of the EOF fabled anyway) and FTH the next day. If you raid a 3rd insert random zone here and your set.

If you find MMIS too challenging then stop coming to the forums and complaining about how hard it is. TRY the encounters and learn to beat them. As Pinski as said before if you don't have the best geared players in the game you can still clear everything there is as all of the mobs are more skill dependant than gear dependant anyways. If you can't beat a named on your first trip into Inner Sanctum big [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing deal come back when your lockouts up. You don't have to clear everything your first time in zone PROGRESS throughout the zone learning the nameds as you go.

In truth EH is a whole new area of raiding, That i wanted. Yes a long multi day raid zone. BIG PROBLEM. You can't save the raid zone. You can't zone out and continue where you left off. You can't even leave yoru entire guild in that zone overnight during the week due to server reboots.
I don't want the developers to nerf the zone. I want them to implement a save raid function for EH (only). Main reason is i raid sun-thurs. I have a life consisting of drinking and hanging out on fridays and saturdays. Lets not continue with the you must raid fri-sat as well just to clear EH.
But seriously the TOPIC of this thread was resolved. The time issue with EH is a total new issue that should be put into its own thread.
Message Edited by Gungo on 01-24-2007 04:46 PM