MIS dropping fabled set gear REVISITED - (Keep it real)

Just thought I would add this because I am sure the casual guilds are too busy to pull the mob more than once without knowing the strat. Knowing SOE's way of "beefing up mobs" the upgraded MMIS will have nameds that either:

A) Spawn 2 heroic level 74 adds that will probably have stunning shards
B) Mem wipe every 30 seconds or so.
C) Have stronger, stunning, charming, or more AE's
D) For the Yellow vampire alone without even fighting the mob I can bet that 2-3 of her adds have been made epic and she probably has a real AE.
E) Will have a severe delevel.
F) More hitpoints
G) Any combination of the above.

Congratulations if you are prepared for these 7 things you will probably be able to beat 95% of the EOF raid content!
Message Edited by Computer MAn on 01-24-2007 05:05 PM

You forgot the debuff aoe

The difficulty was changes for a few reasons. One of the main ones was raiders (most hardcore) went into MMIS and completly owned it in a couple tries. They wanted difficult encounters all over again, something many expect when you get a new expansion. But they didnt think it thru...

What many just dont seem to graps was your going from T7a to T7b. All that wonderful gear you spent the last year getting, and the time spent getting 100% mastered, and most of all learning to be a 100% profeccient and flawless as a raiding team is your easy button.

BUT! You earned that right for easy encounters. No doubt about it and I applaud every hardcore guild or raider who is hardcore at heart. You learned everything the is to know about encounters, every trick to your class and thats great.

But please dont expect to face mobs that are difficult when you've spent much more time raiding than a casual guild does, and on top of that your not raiding a "new tier". Its just T7b. Nothing but a few bosses and contested should present any type of challenge to an top-end raidguild who has beated everything KoS and Fallen Dynasty has to offer.

If SOE messes up increasing the difficulty, then yes... the top raidguilds will face alot of great challenges. And a challenge to many of these guilds is very much out of reach for a casual one. You say its all skill and anyone can do it if you learn the strats. I say put a casual guild in-front of the Matron and give them 10 clean pulls on her. I have feelings many could not down her. Should they? Not IMO. Those types of encounters were made for great guilds.

So making MMIS hard enuf to please the ones complaining could kill MMIS for many of the other raiders out there. I know you want a challenge, but you may have to wait until T8. When a true tier expansion comes out your gonna need to obtain a completely new set of gear and masters. Then you will be challenged once again.
Otherwise asking for things to be continually beefed up will continue to screw over everyone else. But who knows, maybe the beefup wont be so bad like Cochy said, and I'm just shooting myself in the foot here.


FYI This post goes to anyone in the "top 10%" who's been pushing for difficult encounters.

How about because they where too easy.
BeatinGuts wrote:

Except that the Devs stated many times that EoF was supposed to come after KoS in difficulty. So yes, this is T7-B and guess what B comes after A, so it should still present a challenge.

Why are you expecting mobs that are not difficult? Just because some of us raided a lot doesn't mean there is no way to have a challenge. Once again T7-B should be harder then T7-A.

We are not asking for it to be beefed up to screw over anybody else, but because the mobs are clearly too easy. When you can go into the zone and kill every named, minus Mayong, in 2 pulls on your first trip in , then there is a problem.
As for waiting for a T8, that's just silly. Most of us would rather there never be another level cap increase and only more content-oriented expansions.

When you can go into the zone and kill every named, minus Mayong, in 2 pulls on your first trip in , then there is a problem.

Not for most casual guilds... but like I said thats a fact established raid guilds dont seem to understand. If we put you in a raid with 23 casual players, no amount of your guidance is gonna help them clear more than 2 epics in MMIS without ALOT of repair kits. Dont get me wrong, everyone will eventually get thru MMIS like the rest, but at a slower rate than the top 10%.

Case and point Tarinax. The top 10% killed him early on and wanted him beefed up. Mind you, it took several months for the other guilds to catch up even with the difficulty of Tarry untouched. Had you beefed him up, it would have taken others even longer than a few months.

Most of us would rather there never be another level cap increase and only more content-oriented expansions.

And speak for yourself... It's hard letting go of a couple years worth of loots, but T8 is necessary and coming. I will be looking forward to the eventual "reset button" for masters and gear. Seriously, what fun would releasing T7c T7d T7e be? True challenge only comes from upping a tier level. The ones who dont want it to happen are just too attached to their in-game objects.

Nobody asked for Tarinax to be "beefed up" only fixed. If you fought him at the time you would know that his adds only spawned on your first pull. This is what was asked for and this is what was changed.


How is T8 necessary?
What do you get when you gain 10 levels? Hps +10%, Power +10%, Spell + 10% damage, Combat art + 10% damage, Heal + 10% healing, Buff + 10% stats.
What does a mob get ? HPs +10%, Damage + 10%


There is absolutely no change at all with a level cap increase, other then time. If mobs hit 10% harder, and have 10% more HPs, and you do the same, then you are still at the same point you started. Gaining 10 levels is no challenge at all. Upping a tier level is no challenge at all.

Adding content to an existing tier, can provide much more challenge and if done right give you plenty of stuff to do.

The ones who want a tier increase just dont understand that when you add 10% to everything you really don't gain anything at all. You are in the same place you where at level 30 just with bigger numbers.

How is T8 necessary?
What do you get when you gain 10 levels? Hps +10%, Power +10%, Spell + 10% damage, Combat art + 10% damage, Heal + 10% healing, Buff + 10% stats.
What does a mob get ? HPs +10%, Damage + 10%


There is absolutely no change at all with a level cap increase, other then time. If mobs hit 10% harder, and have 10% more HPs, and you do the same, then you are still at the same point you started. Gaining 10 levels is no challenge at all. Upping a tier level is no challenge at all.

Last post I pormise...

Ok, everything posed above is silly in every sense of the word.

Let me reset every master you have, take ever piece of fabled you have away, and then turn you loose in EoF. THATS progression my friend. If what you say is so simple and obvious, we'd all still be lvl 10. Adding a new tier presents challenges across the board. You have to go at raid zones from the bottom up all over again, not jump into T7c in fully fabled T7b.

Continually giving maxed out players new content is no challenge.... No new spells to upgrade, miniscule gear upgrades, what fun is that? You learn a strat, kill, probably dont even need the drop and your bored 1 month later.

If a new tier is no challenge then you must have walked thru KoS as soon as ya'll hit 70. Probably did Tarinax in mastercrafted with only the few relic you got from 1 run in Labs... you know, where you cleared it and killed Vyemm on the first try.

Or maybe, just maybe you got a whole new sense of progression as your geared up all over again and learned brand new arts...

If there was true zone progression, then there would be a challenge. You need the gear from zones A, B, and C to be able to clear zone D.

Just a timesink, and nothing more. Adding a new tier just means you must wait a month to get max level before you get back to the same point you where 1 tier earlier. And KoS was new content, so yes it was a challenge, not because you had to gain 10 levels to do it, but because it was new content. Look at EQ and how long the max levels stayed the same, and how many content expansions they got. The zones got harder, the loot got better, there was progression. They could tune the new mobs based on the loot from the old mobs. Adding levels negates that and forces the "progression" to go back to steps so everyone is on equal footing.

Here we have this system:
Level 70: 10,000 HPs hits for 1,000 gets hit for 5,000
Level 200: 100,000 HPs hits for 10,000 gets hit for 50,000
Sure those bigger numbers look nicer, but you have gained nothing, you aren't challenged anymore then before.

Adding new content to an existing level range allows them to have something like this. Level 1 raids: loot is L1 Fabled (like relic) Mobs are balanced around players in legendary gear, Level 2 raids: Loot is L2 Fabled (like EoF class sets) Mobs are balanced around L1 gear, Level 3 raids: Loot is L3 Fabled (Better stuff) Mobs are balanced around L2 Gear, etc... , and in each Level of raids you would have more steps where L1-B raids will be harder then the entry level raids, and you will want to have some raid gear to be able to do them
This is progression, this is how to have a challenge, just having to gain 10 levels is nothing.

You sir, don't seem to understand what people mean when they ask for progression.

Message Edited by Dogmae on 01-24-2007 11:57 PM

I m not in any top guild, but we just got the last named before the boss in mistmoor and i find it too easy to get this far.
I want this game to last, not to be bored like at the end of KoS where we were sure to kill nearly everything in every instance without any effort, where the most difficult part of the raid was to get a correct raid force. I want to be challenged by the encounter even if that mean i will not have any set piece before a month or two.
Right now i m more pleased by Emerald hall or Freeethinker because we have to work hard to get any named in there. And when our guild beat one of them, it make everyone very happy, because we know we have work hard to get them, wiped many time and the reward is there.
I have never felt that way in mistmoor for the moment, every mob is so easy we feel more like looting 3 set piece and logging out than actually going to fight something(exept majong but we are far from beeing able to beat him).

I havent got an issue with the mobs being beefed up, at least 2 of the named in there were pathetic.
That said I am very concerned that the progression is wrong, putting EH before MMIS rules the majority of raiding guilds (yes the majority do not have 8 plus hours to raid one zone) effictively out of 2 zones instead of if EH came after MMIS it would likely be only one.
We are a casual guild that had beaten all T7 instanced raid content (bar Cheldrak) before EoF went live raiding 3 days a week. On our 3 days we currently raid DT and Clockwork on one day, Freethinkers on the next and MMIS on the last, we typically have about 3.5 hours max to raid in each session due to being a mature bunch with kids/wives/husbands and the time constraints those involve. Its highly likely we wont be going to Emerald Halls anytime soon due to the timesink involved unless as Gungo has asked we are able to save our progress in it, to have this as a stepping stone for MMIS is in my view **** about face.

Hi,

the best post here was from the guy (didn't remember his name) who posted this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if you actually think the MMIS drops warrant more difficulty...

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=90586#M90586
... the picture says it all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harder Mobs are nice (not for us, were casual / semi-hardcore Raiders) but if the gear is sub-par....
Thats a chest piece, which can drop from Trash in Labs... and another Chest Piece from a named in MMIS which
is, and i think all people here will agree with me, obviously a lot harder than trash in labs, which is just a little bit better than Relic.
If the Mob is getting harder, then up the gear as well.
And, offtopic, if something is named "Robe of...." then make that [I can control my vocabulary] thing a Robe ! ;-)
Besides, my Idea of Raid Progression, Fun and Difficulty is NOT clearing 8h Trash.
Regards, Theriatis.

You sir, don't seem to understand what people mean when they ask for progression.
Yea yer right man, I've no idea... hahaha. I just suck at life! You just go ahead and keep on pushing for no more tier expansions, because I personally cant wait for T7c to come around. Woohoo! No more spells ever again! T7 forever! I eventually want a T7c or d chain BP with 630 mit!!! That way when I'm fighting lvl70 KoS mobs I can just auto attack named, go afk, and come back and loot!

/sarcasm off
Dude, 2 braincells is all you need to understand you CANT keep on pushing non-tier expansion packs. T8 is coming next so enjoy the fabled now. And if you dont think thats progression, if staying in T7 forever is what you "honestly and truely" think everyone wants, I just feel sad for you.

Umm...well...let me see...there is nothing wrong having a zone dedicated to "hardcore"-raiders, absolutely nothing, BUT if they do so, this zone has to be at the far end of the progression-line. If EH is meant to be for "hc"-raiders only, then putting MMIS behind it in therms of progression is just plain and simple bull[I cannot control my vocabulary]!!! This would lock every causual / semi-causual raiding guild down and they wouldnt be able to clear a zone (MMIS) that is not totally catered to the "hc"-raiders (because it doent take 2 days to clear it).

Like I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a raid-zone that takes a lot of time to clear...but that zone should not be in the middle of the "progression-line" of the raid-zones (If it would be at the very end, then there is nothing wrong with it.). And neither should it be involved into an epic questline, as noone besides the "hardcore" guilds would be able to finish it.

And just as a side-note...there's nothing wrong with beefing up the named mobs in MMIS...some of them were easier then KoS-trash (DT eyeballs and traps hit a lot harder). They just shouldnt be beefed up beyond oblivion :smileytongue:
Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on 01-25-2007 05:47 AM

/agree

So, I guess MMIS is going to become more difficult then EH. Does that mean they are going to require us to actually use the spikes. This leads me into my next thought. I have been in EH once so far. On average, how long does it take to get to the point where you get spikes from EH? I know its all dependent on what is actually up in zone but on average is all I'm concerned with. Because, if it turns out that you do need the spikes, and it takes 8 hours to get to them, then I'm sure I won't be alone in telling SOE to go [I cannot control my vocabulary] off.

I would love for MMIS to be harder then EH. No one here would have an issue with that if EH didn't require such substantial time invest on Specific days.
SoE needs to make EH have a floor level save function. Require every floor to be cleared before you enter the next floor. If you clear the first floor the raid is saved and you get access to the second. Clear the second floor save the raid progress and get access to the third. The zone then resets completely after the overall lockout is first set on initial zoning. So this gives raids 6? days to clear EH.

I seriosuly doubt that mmis is harder then EH. Imho the encounters need to rescritped for that. Instead they probably just increased the abilites of the mobs.

making the MMIS mobs harder was prolly needed as was increasing some of the loot quality in EH, but not if they go overboard.

Proggresson was all wrong where FTH is harder than MMIS (apart mayong).

However if you NEED stakes that are miles in EH to actually kill the vampires in MMIS that thats plain bollox.

As many have commented on, keep EH as hard as it is now, but make the zone shorter. I seriously doubt there are many guilds willing to spends hours or days camped in there to get the stakes. Most guilds cannot afford to be logged in for 3-4 days which i know some do to start pulling Woushi.

Im fine with it kept a huge long zone (something for the truely hardcore to work through and beat) but only if you DO NOT need anything in there to progress to MMIS. Otherwise basically the new EoF raid content for the vast majority of raiders is gonna be Clockwork and FTH, which is plain bull[I cannot control my vocabulary]. making a zone hugely time consuming does not weed out the good players/raids from the bad or mediochre, it just weeds them out depending on rl commitments spread over several days.

I'm gonna agree with the make MMIS harder, and remove 70% of the trash mobs from EH approach.
EH is a long, dull, grind. The trash isn't hard by anyone's standards. The named vary from moderate difficulty to impossible.
Assuming you got a pop of the zone without Rumbler, had a raid parsing 25k or so on trash, and pulled and killed nameds first attempt, you're looking at 5-6 hours to get stakes. The more hardcore guilds are going /afk in here and taking several days. I think Deathtoll is a good guide for how long a raid zone should take to clear, and keeps players awake with traps and a variety of trash quite well. EH, on the other hand, is a mass of mobs with zero challenge and several million hp, and just plain boring. Some good named fights in there, but by the time you get to them everyone is so sick of the zone they're ready to leave. At the very least some random drops are needed off the trash to give some reward for killing it.

EH would be fine if there was a way to do it over several days that did not include leaving people in zone all day for 3 days on a weekend w/o server reboots.
Eh would not be a boring grind if the named were not on random spawn.
If all the named were up on every zoning (as it should be) and the zone had a save point before the second and third level. Eh would be perfect for a 2-3 day raid zone.