MIS dropping fabled set gear REVISITED - (Keep it real)

The reason I brought this up in another thread is because I believe we need as a community to keep the developers very well aware of our discontent for this change. The previous thread that got locked spoke of the new fabled class gear dropping off the very easy named encounters in MIS and the communities overwhelming disconent for this. I want to keep this thread going (and hopefully keeping it constructful for the developers where this thread doesnt get locked) so hopefully the devs can see how much of a bad idea this is in the games current state. I agree fully that some guilds work very hard to be able to progress in the game and obtain the "end game content". By making this gear so easy to obtain for everyone makes the hardwork that other guilds do to get to the high end content not as rewarding . How rewarding is this gear if everyone can obtain it this easily?

Here is the link to the previous thread and some very vaild points made within
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=zones&message.id=28479

This goes along the lines with making the trash mobs in Labs drop Relic. Devs, please dont make the same mistake you made with Relic. Give people the sense of accomplishment when they get their set gear or make the mobs that drop the gear MUCH MUCH more difficult. Its ridiculous for the first named mob in MIS to drop fabled set gear shoulders. Shoulders dropping off of Tender in EH seemed on par.

Risk vs Reward. Sony set it , please adhere to it.

By making the gear this easy to get now imho severely degrades the value of the game for higher end guilds.

Klutch Steele
Templar of Ne Plus Ultra
Message Edited by KlutchSteele on 01-07-2007 06:23 PM

it doesnt drop from trash like the kos relic did, and back then many people were screaming (literally) for relic to be moved to named only. Well for the eof relic... now its on named.

As far as progression goes, I think its soe's intention that guilds that cant kill the harder stuff are to get the set fabled should have access to it in limited amounts, to keep players interested. JUST having set gear on the first few named most definitely not represents an avalanche of fabled set gear to guilds that arent in the top 2-3 on there server.

If it isn't clear yet i hope it is now. Soe doesn't cater to JUST the hard core minority. If soe JUST supports the hardcore minority... there is no eq2.

Progression is much, much better than it was in kos, heres some example of our first trips into raid zones in kos:
Labs up to Vyemm first run
Lyceum clear first run
Hos up to the Warden first run
Deathtoll up to Tarinax first run
The contested were all down within 2 months by the top end guild on our server.

Now for Eof, we are almost 2 months into it..... None of the Avatars or the pumpkin horseman have been defeated, and guilds are going to need ALOT of this set gear to beat them.

So you are saying that Set Shoulders dropping off of the first named (let alone easier vampire named) in MIS is acceptable with the difficulty of the mobs in its current state? Other set gear, maybe gloves boots bracers (which I still wouldnt agree)...ok but still needed upgraded mobs even for these.

The mobs are ridiculously easy for dropping any set gear at all imho.
Message Edited by KlutchSteele on 01-07-2007 06:50 PM

simply put. yes.
Remember the loot was initially suppose to be in the lewt tables, but was not.
Basically, soe would not have got to such lengths and spent such resources to develop a unique item set for each class if it only catered for the elite 2-3 guilds per server. 4 named having a CHANCE to drop set lewt is FAR, FAR better than the kos days when almost every mob in most instances, including trash could drop relic gear. This is somewhere in between.
And how can progression possibly be up the creek when there are so many contested still standing, and not every boss has been killed in unbroken form?


Message Edited by Jora' on 01-07-2007 07:22 PM

Progression isn't much better if at all better

FTH - Cleared to Treyloth but us cleared by others first run
EH- Tender down 2nd run in first by others (Gardener would of been dead long ago if it wasnt broken)
Inner Sanctum - Cleared to Mayong first run in
CMF- Cleared 2nd run

The EOF contested are largely believed to be impossible in their current form as with most of the other mobs that haven't died yet they are either too difficult or bugged with horrible lag to progress past them.

'Impossible' is very misleading.. because if one thinks a mob is unkillable... that mob is likely to be killed by another guild first.... Wasnt Mayong Mistmoore supposedly unkillable a few weeks bak? and he wasnt changed. The very best guilds will indeed make many of the mobs that havent been killed, killable with enough time and effort.


Back on topic, i maintain progression is much better, because most guilds could clear to vyemm first week in, and nail the kos content. they didnt even have to be hardcore. Now there is a very different situation. Say, how many guilds on your server have cleared CMM Inner Sanctum, including Mayong, as well as FTH. I'd wager that it aint nearly as many that were clearing lyceum there first run in..




Message Edited by Jora' on 01-07-2007 07:48 PM

Tender needs to drop more then just shoulders if the EASY mobs in MIS are gonna continue dropping it too... i completely agree with this threads argument!

Nobody has ever said Mayong Mistmoore was unkillable, just that the lag was stupid from the de-level and created false difficulty in the mob.

Freethinkers was cleared first run by people, Clockwork Menance, also cleared first run. Mayong was all that wasn't killed first run by anybody doing Inner Sanctum. Once we finally tried it, it died without any issues, in fact it's the same fight as the Matron(except the de-level creates a lag spike), which was killed MONTHS ago which shows that the expansion has no progerssion since the mob is the same difficulty as a fight that was killed months ago. Then we come to Emerald Halls. It took a while to figure out what trash needs to be cleared, and what doesn't. Then we also run into the whole lag-spike situation with dispelling mobs(a rare named on the 2nd floor has not 1, but 2! mobs in the encounter that AE Dispels), and then we have the charm ending issue with the Garderner(which btw, losing out on 10s of combat once a minute is not cool, this isn't the Charm, this is when the Charm ENDS that the 10s lag happens, and the charm goes off once every minute for 15s, so you have 10s of doing nothing, BUT recast timers still count down so you could end up with a Furious Storm happening once this lag ends.)

There is no different situation between now and KoS. It is entirely too trivial to gear up, there are only 2 slots that require a lot of work to fill(BP and Legs). 1 of which was supposed to be the END of all instance progression, yet has already been beaten, because it is the same difficulty as a mob that was put in the game months ago. Do you not understand? Progression in this game is non-existant if they're just going to add a mob that is 90% the same as a mob that was in game already.



Next, lets look at Emerald Halls alone. With how much trash you have to clear to get to named in comparison to Inner Sanctum you end up with less loot with more timer invested in 1 zone. Hows that make Progression work at all? The Tender is harder than anything in Inner Sanctum(except Mayong), but it drops the same quality loot? Hows that work at all? You know that Yellow Vampire in Inner Sanctum? That's a 35 second fight. 35 seconds on a named mob means it should not drop loot that is as good as a harder named in another zone. This is not progression, this is a total joke.
Message Edited by Pinski on 01-07-2007 11:18 PM

How can progression be non existant? Progression is only 'perceived' as non existant because you are in one of those elite, top guilds that seeks to be challenged by high level content, however have beaten a good proportion of it. However, a far larger game population (note FAR larger) havent yet completed much of the content (beyond the 2-3 guilds that are clearing the new eof content), therefore there is a sense of the progression for these guilds. There are many many guilds still working there way thru the instance content, which is far more than I can say that the plethora of guilds that were already farming vyemm and labs 2 months after the kos expansion hit.

Thats why there is progression.

If there was no progression, again i ask why are the avatars and the pumpkin horseman are still up? If there is lag, that is another issue that needs to be addressed, but lag and progression are 2 COMPLETELY different things, although having the lag may limit the amount you can progress in a given time.

Those numerous contested you see that are 'impossible' are a good indication for things to come (aka progression!). at this time iin kos, all contesteds had been killed. Theres a big, big difference, because you have plenty of content to work toward. Can you honestly say that after 2 months of KoS you still had content to work on that was challenging? or even 4?

Ok Jora let me explain why there is no progression. Inner sanctum is suppost to be the hardest raid zone. It is in fact along the lines of clockwork ( which is a complete joke ) and can be killed by anyone. Guess what? it also has the best loot. While emerald Halls which is way harder has considerably worse loot. And what really bothers me is the fact that EH is only hard because of the 10s lag spikes that the Gardner throws out. So Easy zone that takes no time = Best loot. While Hard and REALLY buggy zone has crap loot. Does this make since to you?

Freethinkers was cleared first run by people, Clockwork Menance, also cleared first run. Mayong was all that wasn't killed first run by anybody doing Inner Sanctum. Once we finally tried it, it died without any issues, in fact it's the same fight as the Matron(except the de-level creates a lag spike), which was killed MONTHS ago which shows that the expansion has no progerssion since the mob is the same difficulty as a fight that was killed months ago. Then we come to Emerald Halls. It took a while to figure out what trash needs to be cleared, and what doesn't. Then we also run into the whole lag-spike situation with dispelling mobs(a rare named on the 2nd floor has not 1, but 2! mobs in the encounter that AE Dispels), and then we have the charm ending issue with the Garderner(which btw, losing out on 10s of combat once a minute is not cool, this isn't the Charm, this is when the Charm ENDS that the 10s lag happens, and the charm goes off once every minute for 15s, so you have 10s of doing nothing, BUT recast timers still count down so you could end up with a Furious Storm happening once this lag ends.)

There is no different situation between now and KoS. It is entirely too trivial to gear up, there are only 2 slots that require a lot of work to fill(BP and Legs). 1 of which was supposed to be the END of all instance progression, yet has already been beaten, because it is the same difficulty as a mob that was put in the game months ago. Do you not understand? Progression in this game is non-existant if they're just going to add a mob that is 90% the same as a mob that was in game already.



Next, lets look at Emerald Halls alone. With how much trash you have to clear to get to named in comparison to Inner Sanctum you end up with less loot with more timer invested in 1 zone. Hows that make Progression work at all? The Tender is harder than anything in Inner Sanctum(except Mayong), but it drops the same quality loot? Hows that work at all? You know that Yellow Vampire in Inner Sanctum? That's a 35 second fight. 35 seconds on a named mob means it should not drop loot that is as good as a harder named in another zone. This is not progression, this is a total joke.






I couldnt Agree more, We went Into FTH the first raid of the Xpac, and Killed it, Malkonis died, first time we were like omg did we just world first FTH? we were amazingly high that night, We finally killed The Tender and The Centaur on the 2nd floor tonight, and we were extatic, sure no WW1st, but a pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice achievement... Then we see some total crap guild linking things in 60-69 and omg its set gear, this is a guild that cannot even kill treyloth, the Misress of the veil.... anything, So, Please, tell me how the Gargoyle in IS, can drop Tender loot, Tell me how. Please explain to me.

How can a mob that i wanna say under 10, (i could be wrong) guilds have killed IN THE WORLD, drops the same chests as a mob pickup raids are killin in IS.

please explain to me how that makes sense, and i will just , idk... worship you.

Another thing, Matron loot, = current teir loot, The mage things off there, omg they got abilities on them, procs, INT MEANS NOTHING TO A MAGE..... This is why Gown of Glory is Irreplacable, ABILITIES... EoF gear can have 35 int on a pair of boots... i'll take 1 with 30 int and a 2% crit chance in a heartbeat... u can gimme a Mage hat with BoE X on it, Ill take the BOTD ANYDAY!!!, i can give me a belt with 900 to 4 resist and 29 int on it, i'll take the BCG over it in a heart beat, sure the Mage pants in IS, well my MO pants got the same power proc, but a deagro to go along with it...

people need help.

SoE fix yer game, before the xpac is cleared before u can ever put out an epic line...

sorry for the double post, but Mayong was due to lag like Pinksi said, i guarantee u as soon as there is no more lag after the charm, guilds will have her down faster then Jenna Jameson...

I'm amazed at how juvenile some of the members of these hardcore raiding guilds are. Honestly, the progession might not be what you expected, but don't get so wound up about loot tables when they don't affect you in a detrimental way. If you feel so strongly about it and are basically willing to back up your bb opinions, I suggest you transmute/vendor the class loot that drops from all non boss names....................
AFAIK SOE are trying to fix the loot tables, so unless you have a player on test that can confirm whether the issues have been fixed, why not just wait until it comes out on live before whining.
Message Edited by Herbster on 01-08-2007 09:41 AM

are you serious?

I hope you arent serious...

you know what we got off the Tender and Bloomseeker? we got 1 pair of boots, and 1 shoulder, we can now get this from Mistmoore, so, why spend HOURS literal hours clearing to this mob, to get the same loot we can get from a 2 grped mob in IS?

also. Do you think said uber raid guilds should get the same loot as pickupraids? I dont.

Wait until the loot table patch has gone onto live before giving me your sob story.
You mentioned pickup raids. Although I have never been in a pickup raid, if they kill that same named as a 'uber raid guild' then IMO they actually deserve better loot as you can bet it took more effort.

The progression is non exsistant, period. Either you can plainly see this or you simply have not seen enough of the raid scene for this expansion to know what your talking about.
Mobs that are 1 and 2 groupable, that take 10 minutes to get to, are now dropping gear as good or better than mobs that takes a full raid an hour or longer of clearing to get to, let alone kill. That is not progression, that is just downright poor implementation.
One of the named mobs in Inner Sanctum that is now dropping fabled set gear my guild killed in 34 seconds, with 19 people. Yes, 34 seconds and only 19 people. Tell me why a mob that practicaly fell over and dropped a chest because someone sneezed should be dropping end game loot? It is relic all over again. You kill weak pathetic mobs that any pickup raid can kill, you get top of the line fabled set gear that will last you until next expansion and is good enough to kill any mob in the game that is killable. The only difference is instead of farming trash daily you kill some mobs that are EASIER than the trash in the zone to get it, but your guarenteed drops instead of hoping for one from trash.
This is the worst change SOE could have made in regards to progression. Im sorry but anyone argueing against it is clearly doing so for selfish reasons and selfish reasons only. Anyone who truly cares about the raiding scene in this game knows this needs to be corrected immediately although I fear it is already too late. If that is the case, thank you for ruining another expansion SOE.
Please, tell me why raiders should continue playing your game when it is obvious that you have no intentions of providing a proper risk/effort vs reward enviroment for all their time and hardwork? Should we all just count our losses and move on? That is most definitly the message you are sending out. If that is not the case, we need to be told what is instore for our demographic because everyone I talk to says they feel they are being shown the door.

you dont have to be in a top shot raiding guild to want a clear progression.....
i'm in a rading guild... we havent beaten mobs like matron or mayong yet but
i want a clear progression too, simply to have something to look forward too.....
Message Edited by Killerbee3000 on 01-08-2007 02:30 AM

so people complain that sets arnt dropping and now complain that they do ? can soe do ANYTHING right in your eyes ?
Question Should NAMED drop set items - Yes ofc they should
Reason - Trash Dropped relic nameds have ALWAYS droped loot so whats the difference ? you can raid MiS 100 times and Still not get the set piece you need so why are you complaining ?? omg people

Have you killed every EoF instance and contested mob? I know the answer, but I just wanted to highlight that until you do, you can't really make a sweeping statement about progression. There IS progression, but maybe not the progression that you want.
To answer a few point in your post. This is not relic all over again - below are a couple of points highlighting the difference between relic and current drops:

• Relic dropped off trash mobs
• Relics could be obtained without a success instance lockout
• Relics could be obtained easily from trash with less that 2 groups - probably 1 group if suitably kitted out & right group makeup.

Now to me, this seems like a MAJOR difference between the current drops and relic, don't you?
You mention this example in IS. Now this is not the case with 3 other named in IS or tbh in any other EoF instance - so making a carte blanche statement about progression using a single instance is pretty poor.
If you raiders with a similar attitude to you that haven't taken out all EoF epic content and complain about progression really feel so bad and what to leave the game, go ahead. You aren't aware of the loot tables of the avatars of the horseman, yet you're whining about loot. I know that the only thing that makes the professional sets (for me anyway) of any use in comparison to other drops is having all 7 items, apart from certain slots, a lot are worse than available in KoS/EoF already. An example being a monk - for us mitigation is vital now due to the diminishing returns factor - the monk specific armor has crappy mitigation.

This isn't about comparing to relic, nor is it about EoF itemization or the complete progression in EoF. We haven't seen loot of said mobs that have not yet been killed so we can not say anything about that. Other than that it should be better than the stuff we've seen so far since well, the mobs are more difficult > better loot. Simple.
What this is about that the current progression was just fine the way it was apart from some set gear aparently not dropping. Now, had they added the missing gear to the loottables of Tender, Treyloth, Malkonis, TA etc. all would've been fine. The more difficult mobs get the better gear while Shredder, CMF, some EH mobs, **** IS mobs drop decent gear but not as good as set gear. Hey, progression!
The way it is now is that the **** mobs in IS drop loot that does not reflect their difficulty. That is the only thing, and tbh I think this is a very very bad thing and is in need of a fix TODAY rather than tomorrow or next week.