Currmit@Antonia Bayle wrote: The question I have for you... How in the *beep* does raiding make you a better crafter? I'll answer it for you, it DOESN'T! Having to find a master trainer who holds secrets and getting him to teach you would make you a better crafter, not killing some x4 trash mob who mystically presents the knowledge to a chosen one through some pieces of paper/runes/other media. In many ways, the core of the skill system is really at fault here though... How does a fighter get better by drinking a potion (not counting the Ranma 1/2 shadowfighter implication ). Or a rogue get better by having a rune? How can someone who can't even cast a spell be capable of making a spell scroll? Or how can some x4 worm have the secrets to being a paladin stuck in his stomach? From the beginning, skills should have been trainable by NPCs (ala DAoC/SB) or PCs (ala SWG) with a limited number of points that would have allowed differentation and would have forced people to specialize in their desired role and keep people from mastering all. The same is true for tradeskillers. Perhaps there should have only been one class and people would have had to train to do what they wanted (and even cross trained where they wanted). IMNSHO, I believe this is where the system really falls apart, the foundation of the game (regardless of what anyone things, the skill system is the foundation of any RPG) was built upon sand and what we now see is the results of building upon sand. Nothing will stand on it.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: [p] That's not the point, the point is if it does not require you to get a huge group together and coordinated ANYONE can do it. And, the best stuff has to come from the things that require the most effort. I won't even say the "biggest challenge" because I personally haven't seen that raid content is generally all that challenging...it just requires a lot more effort, at least on the part of those who put the raids together and lead them (any mindless drone good at following instructions can actually participate however, if they have the patience for it...which I do not).[/p][p]It's just the nature of itemized games of this sort, like it or not. Of course, this is the foundation of sand you mentioned.[/p]
Currmit@Antonia Bayle wrote: I think you mixing 2 points. 1. we have the raws, no crafters sad its bad that the raws needed raiding to get them. 2. we have recipies, in a ideal world you should earn the right to make the better stuff while you did something crafting related and not because you did adventuring or raiding. Just look how you get the crafting recipies: common: you craft stuff and level up and can buy the recipies. woooot I get them trough something crafting related. rare recipies: slaying mobs until the recipies drop or in t6 build up faction through adventuring and buy them in maj dul. Bad one, no crafting involved to get them fabled: slaying big and very bad mobs until they drop the recipies. Bad one, no crafting involved. No one sad, you should just get them because you are a L70 crafter. But to get them because you are a raider is plain wrong. You should earn them throught something crafting related and not something adventuring related. Then the raider needed to go to a crafter who earned the right to make this item and let him make it through the new crafting mode (dont remember the name lol). But you could earn the right to make this stuff without raiding and this is the importent point. How you get the raws is a different shoe.
So, to focus it more on what he was getting at, if the path to the recipe requires a crafter to actually craft yet, the component still comes from a raid, where's the issue?
And you are sure, that there is no way to make something for crafting which involves the same effort and work like raiding ? No one sad he want these recipies for free, just a 'hard' way with lot of work which includes NO adventuring.
[p]Aye, I've been sick the last couple of days so my brain is floating all over the place... and that is without medicine.[/p][p]My basic point is, I don't care with the component drops from (it could be from Woushi himself), but nothing about a raid should be the focal point for LEARNING the recipe. Also, it should be a no trade component and a commision only job, that way BOTH parties bring something to the table. [/p]
[p]As Ilucide said, there is more coming.[/p][p]The only mistake SoE made as far as this goes is releasing it before any other TS changs.[/p][p]As a guess, the only reason they did this is because EH was increadibly under-itemized.[/p][p]Basically, they had a situation where they had a raid zone that takes litterally days to clear, trash never dropping anything of value, all but a few names on a random spawn, and a lot of the name dropped loot worse than what most can get from much easier and less time consuming raids in KoS. In order to fix this, they added in these recipes to deal with that situation.[/p][p]As i said in another thread, if you do not intend to be in a guild that is clearing EH, this is content added to the game for players that are not you.[/p][p]There is a diffrance between high level and high end, even in tradeskilling. [/p][p]A high level tradeskiller is someone that has a tradeskiller at level 70. This is not hard. A high end tradeskiller is someone that does what ever it takes to make the best items that players in the game. This now involves raiding, either by themselves, or by others. I high end tradeskiller has a choice os leveling themselves up to 70 as an adventurer (much as adventurers did with tradeskilling to get HQs done in KoS), or can try to bargin with a top end raiding guild (or not even top end, a lot of guilds do EH). Networking has ALWAYS been part of tradeskilling, the only diffrance is that now that networking also involves raiders.[/p][p]High end (as opposed to high level) tradeskillers will have a change to make these items, high end (as opposed to high level) adventurers will have a chance to use and equip these items, whats the issue?[/p]
Radar-X wrote: Yes, I suppose you are correct. This was just about adding content to raiding. I am sure this will be utilized by several 1000 people and will encourage more Raiders to become Tradeskillers so that they can experience more aspects of the game than just sitting around for 4 hours at a time for 15 mins of excitement. Crafters Selfish? Darn Right they have a reason to be! Raiders already have plenty of rewards for being able to take direction from a Raid Leader. Crafters get the shaft in every aspect of the game thus far. As I have said .. the only hope I have for the rest of us poor shmucks is that Illucide (& whoever takes over crafting) considers this a experiment a success and decides to trickle (copy & paste) it down the tier of progression .. However, something that only benefits a small portion of the game doesn't equal a "brilliant move". It equals "catering to a percentage". There are "tons" of people in WoW. There aren't "tons" of people that raid.
[p]Anyone who thinks crafting is a viable alternative to adventuring much less raiding is fooling themselves. With every expansion, maybe 1% of the new content is related to crafters (and that is basically a copy/paste of old recipes). Now after all this time we have a developer actively adding content to the crafting world. He's stated he'll be adding content to heroic zones as well, but i'm sure if you guy's scream enough he might just decide his time is better spent on something people will actually apreciate and crafting will again slip into total obscurity. As far as the people complaining that now the pure crafter won't be able to compete with a raid crafter, the truth is they never could. There has always been fabled gear on the market. Not only that but now there is so much legendary gear out there that has prices for less than i could make master crafted items.[/p][p]Involving crafters in rare drops whether on raids or from heroic named mobs is the only way to save crafting from total obscurity.[/p]
I have an idea... how about Sony puts in the game a feature where every 13 days of being logged out, you get an ultra rare component for tradeskilling Then, sometimes, when you pay for your account, you get a tradeskill book! That way, you can get all the ubar gear we do, at 0 effort. You already get the best drink in the game from a heroic instance, if you don't want to raid, fine, but why do you care if we get extra weapons, toys and trinkets... our tradeskillers have to be level 70 to *GET* the books anyway. It's not like they're benefiting from the extra EXP for a *long long* grind? People who *play* this game vs. people who *own* this game and play it once every week or so, is an ongoing struggle. If you play it everyday to craft, that's awesome, you'll probably make more money off selling repair kits, potions, adept 3s, and poisons than I'll see in a lifetime. EDIT: Also... for those raiders who have done Bone Clasped Girdle / Wurmslayer... I guess they're undeserving of their loot because they did a quest... in a game called EverQuest... to go get some sweet item that required tradeskilling. Since you can't kill the dragons required though, on the same note as you can't kill Woushi/Gardener/Tender, then all items that benefit raiders who tradeskill should be completely removed because there's effort involved in attaining them. (I'm speaking specificly of the raiders who completed this quest with*OUT* the consignment system)
Actually, as stated so many times, this does affect me because the results are tradable and thus sellable and not just through "loot rights". The mistake was not doing it now, the mistake was making it attuneable and not no-trade. You can restate your argument now based on the fact that those items can very much affect me as a non-raider by completely outclassing everything I make. High end... indisputable fact, every word of what you said....and therein lies the problem. Every fact you presented is what's wrong here.It's currently impossible for a crafter to be "high end" unless they raid. Because of those adventurers who ground through trades for the KoS heritages, it's going to be nigh impossible to make those "network"deals- especially on a server like Lucan. Actually, you do have one disputable part, since the items are tradable, "high end" crafters will indeed have a chance to make the items but, "high level" adventurers will be able to buy them.
[p] Cutting deals with adventurers? Oh...you mean like the deals adventurers have to cut with TS'ers every day for food/drink/poisons/potions/totems/weapons/armor/clothing/and house items? Yeah, I can see where that's fair.[/p][p] [/p]
:lol:Agreed. Tradeskillers **** us of our money but we pay it cause we have no choice. Thats the disadvantage of not having a 70 tradeskiller. On the other hand a 70 adventurer finally gets some payback. By the way that 70 provisioner recipe I got from Unrest is on the broker for 20pp if anyone wants to buy it. :thumbup:
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: You mean those items that come form recipes that adventurers have to provide? Yeah, very fair. Oh wait, there are quest rewards and drops that outclass almost everything you named. Anyhow this argument is getting silly and off track with every posting of off the wall comparisons. No one asked for something for nothing- ever. What was asked for was a way to earn rewards by your own crafting ability in a game that sold crafting as viable. To the concern of content being added, if it makes matters worse then yes, I'd much rather things get halted right here. The path we are headed down with additions like this and what we've seen proposed is the cementing in stone of crafting as a secondary activity. If they really want to do that then they need to tell their customers so those customers that took them at their word can go elsewhere and give up on what's never going to be. Otherwise, more care should probably be given to a very fragile part of the game and things like this that obviously are going to go over poorly should be avoided by being done right.
I believe it when I see the patch notes. SOE promised allready more then once TS stuff they never delievered. We had allready a expansion, where they delievered the missing TS stuff 6 month after release, therefore this might be true ;-)
[p]First off, we are not asking for it to be no effort. We are asking for the RECIPES to be a crafter reward while the materials are strictly RAID obtains and no trade. THAT would make it alot more equitable. Right now, the adventure holds all the cards and anyone who thinks that is equitable is smoking something, seriously.[/p][p]This change will create an additional level of teiring that will completely invalidate the whole of the crafted tier. It makes it so that a crafter WILL not be able to compete at all IF they can not sell this item since these items will outclass anything we can make. Of course the true rarity of the drops will impact this, if they are as common or slightly less common than relic drops, then this will destory the crafters who do not raid, if only 1 or 2 drop a night, then the impact will be less so.[/p][p]I under no circumstance do not want these components to drop outside of a raid and I think the GEAR should come from a raid, what I'm complaining about is the recipe itself, it should be obtained from CRAFTING, not RAIDING. Make us do x number of writs for a single recipe, that's fine. Make us do a whole series of (non adventuring) quests, fine. But the RECIPES should not be raid droped period![/p]
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: [p] [/p][p][/p][p]Okay...did you actually read the original post you are responding to? He said "SOME" not "ALL." Adventurers can get SOME of their stuff without having to cut those deals, just not ALL of it. Read first, think second, respond last. ;-)[/p]
Just remember when you read the patch notes to look for careful little things like "high end" and not get your hopes up.Regardless, if history is our guide we wont see the full fruits of anything for about 6+ months now. I just noticed that the real irony of this for me is that I'm actually benefited by Lucan being a raid light server because these items will likely never leave the only guild I know can make progress there.
If you buy all from the broker its your fault. Did you ever try to *gasp talk to crafters or ask in the crafting channel ? This way you prolly would find someone like me, who make the stuff for a fair price. But if you put recipies up for 20pp, just go ahead and keep buying it from the broker.
