Amataelia wrote: The Recipes, the rare component and the item itself are all tradeable. Nice add-on to raids, the items are pretty decent and its good to have upgraded poisons for some of the harder raid zones that the regular tradeskill stuff thats ment for heroic aren't quite on par with. On a side note for the worried crafters: These items are hard to come by, raiders that spent hours on this stuff aren't going to craft a mass amount of these and crash your market, most guilds will most likely keep these items within the guild for raids. A+ on this feature, however... good feed-back doesnt mean cut and paste the tradeskill thing into every future raid zone tho
Heart's Rage wrote: Awesome, thanks for your quick response! I can deal with this issue since the items are attainable by crafters if they desire to procure them. We may have to pay exuberant prices for them but that's fine, the ability to make them is there. Eventually the components will filter into the marketplace just like star rubies and rubicite did. I never owned any of those items but it was nice to know that I could show off my hard work if I wanted to.
Just wanted to share the information i know and have experienced. ( I am at work so am not being deliberately vague in these references). The Jeweler Recipe(s?) is tradeable, as is its primary build component, both of which drop in Emerald Halls - the ring it produces is flagged Lore and Attuneable(thus tradeable), and commisionable. The Carpenter Recipe(s?) also is tradeable as is its primary build component. However the house item it produces is no-trade, but commisionable. Also tradeskillers get the discoveries on commisioned work, if it is indeed a discovery. I personally like the integration of the two, as a long time crafter, and also as a raider. Admitably, they are somewhat less readily available (reliant on social, political, or monetary networking) to those crafters outside of a raiding guild. I have yet to form a complete opinion on this, as i believe i have only seen a little of what is available, and what could be possible and planned, but so far I like the concept or at least my current perception of it.
Then explain how this involves tradeskillers. Those hard-core raiders who spent time grinding a tradeskill for the KoS HQs will be "involved" and rewarded (the majority of raiders are not tradeskillers by choice.. I know that from experience, not just guessing), but there is -nothing- about it that encourages any raider to interact with tradeskillers who aren't also in their same hard-core guilds. Unless you're a hard-raider, you will only get the opportunity to be "involved" in this "reward for high level crafters" as a hand-me-down from a raid guild who finds the recipes pointless or worthless. Since the recipes are limited use, that's even less likely than if they were normal recipes (they'll keep the "extras" for their own crafters to use when the first batch run out), unless the items they make are really considered worthless by the raiders who can obtain them and then.. the components might not even make beyond being dumped on the NPC merchant or even deleted upon receipt. However, if the RECIPES were rewards for a difficult -tradeskill- quest (one requiring high level tradeskilling and not just one that was for doing some deliveries and harvest easy-peasy special items placed in obvious locations) and the COMPONENTS were from the raid locations, THAT would involve tradeskillers with the raiders, since both would be bringing something to the interaction. So... where's the involvement for the majority of the high level tradeskillers? Raiders are the only ones who reap this "reward".
Not possible to get them from that raiding guild for 2 reasons. 1) they're not anywhere near capable of doing much in EH (not unless the "trash mobs" are on or lower than the level of difficulty as the nameds in Death Toll) and 2) Rijacki is back to her original server which is not the server with the raid guild of which she was a member and I still raid with as another character (a level 70 dirge). I don't regret the move, though, even with this new "reward to tradeskillers" not because LotWR isn't raiding in EH but because moving Rijacki was the right thing for her and me and that hasn't changed. -NOTE- As I have stated more than once, my irritation isn't "sour grapes", I want rewards for tradeskillers to be added to the game. I'm not even distressed or upset that these fabled recipes are in game (just, as I said, that they were announed as nifty things for high level tradeskillers, which they aren't in a general way). I'm even glad, as I said before, to hear that all the classes have recipes this time 'round. I'm not even worried that the new recipes will do diddly to the current market of handcrafted and mastercrafted items. I am just disappointed there doesn't seem to be any effort made to do anything to actually or really reward tradeskillers, to give them something for their efforts of crafting, instead of giving raiders yet another set of drop items. Having the everything trickling down from raiders does not involve anyone else, it just widens the gap of them and us -and- perpetuates many hard-core raider's concept of being so much better than the unwashed masses.
Rijacki wrote: One has to be a tradeskiller to scribe the recipe and then create it. Gear isn't freely given to adventurers who ding 70 either. They have to go out there and get it. The same applies to tradeskills. And the way these recipes work, you can offer your skills to guilds that can get them even if you, yourself, cannot. I'm failing to see the downside. There are interesting, great items for people to get, and they come from tradeskills. The effort involved in getting the recipes and components means that the end items can be that much better. It's a win/win situation. I have plans for other things with respect to the tradeskill process itself too, but these recipes are specifically for 'high end' (which I believe I specified - not 'high level' ) tradeskillers. Just being a high-level tradeskiller isn't going to get you anything more if you're passive about acquiring assets than passively being a high-level adventurer. :wink: -Ilu Edited because a parenthesis somehow turned into a smiley. =(
The effort really is appreciated but, the problem is at this time there really is no way for a tradeskiller to earn anything by tradeskilling. Personally, all complaints would be removed from me if the current recipe components/results were made no-trade instead of attuneable. With the dearth of valuable tradeskill products and the lack of ability for tradeskill ability to be earned by actually tradeskilling, I don't need to be in competition with raiders- the market it just too thin. If these rewards are intended for that level of play, keep it there- at least until more is available for general tradeskilling. The disagreement you see isn't that we don't like or appreciate the effort and addition, it's because tradeskills are currently just too thin to give any one segment an advantage this big. Well, that and for a game that sold tradeskills as co-equal to adventuring, trades depend on adventuring for everything.That's what I was getting at before when I mentioned the independent crafter. Crafters want to actually earn things by crafting, not just by being a raider or buying what pops up on the broker.
Ilucide wrote: This comment almost offended me LOL. When this game started crafters were on equal par with adventurers and the fact that SOE stressed how involved and important crafting in this game was going to be drew a whole new genre of gamer to EQ2. When leaving the Isle you had to pick between crafter and adventurer (which was very cool and I miss a lot). Many of us who have been crafting from the beginning do consider ourselves to be "high end" not just "high level", anyone can be high level these days. I take a lot of pride in being a high end crafter, I know how to work the economy and I know what goods I can make and actually sell these days...........that's saying a lot with some of the options we have out there. I'm not passive about acquiring my assets, I work the broker every day for deals on rares and raws, I compete against price cutters daily, our ideas of passive just differ greatly from yours. Being an aggressive and high end crafter does not entail fighting mobs for components, at least it didn't start out that way and shouldn't be to this day. At one time we were on equal par with adventurers, we aren't any more and that's the entire issue.
Rijacki wrote: Answer me this. What would be the difference if they totally scrapped the tradeskill component and just placed the items as trash drops on mobs. That way these items would still drop. Would that be any better? Would tradeskillers be better off? The only reason you are complaining is because you can not obtain these items. By adding tradeskills as a step to obtain these raid items they are essentially including crafters in the process. Tomorrow illucide can say screw this and place the items directly on the mobs no tradeskills needed. Crafters would then be worse off. Its really that simple you have to be quite selfcentered to beleive that YOU are entitled to craft these items. Crafting failed becuase the original tradeskill developers failed to integrate crafting into adventuring or into the game. Crafting would be a thriving path if most drops off mobs were crafting based. If raids only dropped crafting compnents. if relic armour was instead molds used by crafters to create the deisred commissioned items. Instead you have a side system running along an adventure game that realistically can not compete with adventuring. Your fighting against a system that should be working with you. This point is moot. The recipe, components, and some of the final rewards are tradeable. ANY CRAFTER can be commissioned to work on these orders who have obtained enough skill. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ANYONE SHOULD OBTAIN THESE ITEMS.
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: You are missing the point. This is not T5 secrets of books where the only people who crafted at that level actually liked crafting, this is post KoS crafting where many raider crafters were dragged to that level kicking and screaming and this has skewed whatever potential could be had for general crafting. Put it another way, any guild that can do EH likely has a full complement of crafters- why exactly would they give up a monopoly and why would a guild allow their members to be charged for something they can get at cost? Besides, almost no one has said the components should be accessible the recipes however are a different issue. This change, since the items are tradable, tiers the marketplace and puts non-raiding crafters in a lower position. This would not be an issue if there were a more fleshed out system but, it is not and crafting as is is simply too thin to tolerate this. If the general idea is to advance crafting in this manner then the best thing to do is retract the line that crafting is co-equal, call it a "hobby" and offer refunds to the people who were misled that crafting itself actually could mean something.
[p]ok, in some regards I don't see that much of a problem with how the recipes are working. Kind of reminds me oh how obtaining Mandolorian Armor worked in SWG. [/p][p]However, Illucides comments alone definetely make me think that tradeskilling now appear to be secondary skills that can be essentially considered as a hobby outside of adventuring, wherein early on in this game's life, crafting could be considered more of a direction you could take a toon.[/p][p]So in the end I'm somehow agreeing with the people who don't see it as being a big deal, and also with the people like Deson and Gungo.[/p][p]Man, I need to lay off the wacky tobackie[/p]
[p]Ilu,[/p][p]I think the fact that you are looking for ways to pull tradeskillers into the raiding cycle is a good thing. However I also think you should be able to understand the concerns that are being raised.[/p][p]Look at it this way. Let's say Bill is an adventurer who doesn't raid. And Bob does raid. In the realm of Adventuring.. the fact that Bob raids really does not matter to Bill at all. Bill can go about his solo and heroic content and, as long as he is not on a pvp server, can be blissfully unaware of raiders and their phat uber gear. As it should be (except for pvp servers.. a big tangent, so I'll refrain).[/p][p]Now, pan the camera over the tradeskillers. Let's say Sally is a tradeskiller who doesn't raid. And Sarah is a tradeskiller who does. In the realm of tradeskilling, if Sarah can make uber wares that Sally has no hope of ever being able to match, and if she can then sell those wares on the open market, then the fact is that Sally's entire game, as a tradeskiller, is effectively terminated. The fact that she doesn't raid, and the limitation this puts on her, essentially means she is out of business. That is not how it should be.[/p][p]I believe that is the general feedback that some folks are trying to give you. They think that the notion of involving tradeskilling with raids is really cool. But they fear that a policy of "either raid or don't bother being a tradeskiller" would be a very harmful one. [/p]
[p]If they keep adding things like this at all levels of the game, solo, group and raid, I can see where it helps crafting. I agree with you that this new high end fabled stuff is pretty much going to go to high end raid guilds only, and if it stops there, it's not going to help the average high level crafter. However, perhaps we'll see legendary recipes and components coming from group named mobs and treasured/mastercrafted level items from solo drops and quests. They could also make legendary recipe rewards for HQ's.[/p][p]That said, I would definitely like to see at least some higher end items carfters can get without having to adventure or cut deals with adventurers. It's only fair. [/p]
Personally I like the idea of rare TS recipies. I wish there was more quests and such for unique tradeskill items. Instead of tin/fulganite/carbonite greatsword etc rounds every tier. I really badly want more unique house items.
First off I would like to welcome you all to a Free Market, and for those that have no idea what I’m talking about, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market This is a interesting new method of adding Fabled and Legendary loot drops to high end zones. This is such great approach I think the developers should add other drops like this to the higher end heroic zones; these drops don’t have to be fabled of course. This new method of “Loot†dropping adds extra content to the game. For those that don’t raid and dislike these recipes, think about it this way. Most mobs in the game, baring heritage mobs, you kill – loot – Attune. This fresh new approach adds to that, Kill – Loot – Craft – Attune. Of course there will be a market for these items in the market, and it will be a sellers market as with most high-end tradable loot. I’m very disappointed in the community for focusing in on this specific market problem, which isn’t even a problem. There are areas in the market that need more attention, for example: Treasured and Adept 1 pricing are a result of transmuting. The high prices, which are out of the league of any new player or low level character, are a rising problem that encourages buying plat from 3rd parties or just plain coinage farming. To get back to the topic, these are not normal cartable items. These are rewards for putting your life on the line, so to speak, and defeating a fearsome creature that lies deep inside dungeon intended for multiple parties. Well time to end my rant.
As you welcome us to the free market, let me welcome you to the world of the government picking winners, the antithesis of the free-market.Sorry no fancy link, but if you understand what you linked then I don't need to. You, like many here, have completely missed what the argument is. Trades were not sold as a hobby or secondary yet in every respect that is exactly what they are now. What this change does is give raider crafters an advantage in a very thin market place. If crafting were a more fleshed out, solid system it may be tolerable but, it is not now. Most of the issue comes from KoS. These recipes are no different than the old "Secrets of...." recipes that many of us complaining now adored. The problem is that now, many raiders who would have come to a dedicated crafter won't now because they already have a capped crafter due to the heritage quests. With crafting the current mess it is, what has just happened is those raiders- many of whom would not be crafters if not for those heritages and indeed loathe crafting- have been given a significant market advantage amplified by that mess.No one has posted against the recipes, what everyone has posted against is the effect it has on general crafting and the markets.
