There is nothing 'hard' in tradeskilling, tradeskills are so simple that most people can watch a movie and tradeskill without hardly even looking at the screen except to click the next begin button. The only idea i've seen posted involved doing 1000 combines, but that isn't hard, that's tedius. If they implemented something like that the real winners would be botters/plat farmers who would then have a new even more profitable way of fleecing the population.
Everything where the adventure level matters, like killing mobs. For Example Running from A to B, if its possible to avoid mobs and therefore I don't have to kill them would not count for me. I mean nothing is set in stone, so SOE could invent some other ways to show effort, which does not include killing mobs. The timed writs are a good example. To finish them in time you have to show at least at little skill in TS =)
Zahmekoses wrote: And you are sure, that there is no way to make something for crafting which involves the same effort and work like raiding ? No one sad he want these recipies for free, just a 'hard' way with lot of work which includes NO adventuring. Depends on what you consider as 'adventuring' I suppose. If you think anything that doesn't involve sitting at the work bench/forge/etc. is adventuring...then, no, not really. Seriously, there's absolutely no effort other than time and harvesting time involved in 'pure crafting'. Now, that being said, I think there are a TON of things they could do to add more special recipes that are obtainable in a way that is more crafting focussed, however. All of them would take a bit of work and effort by the dev team, however. I dont' know that the resources at SOE are distributed in a way that would make it doable. What they did by making it a drop is "simple".. just add it to the game, add it to loot tables, done. I craft a lot more than I adventure, and I would love it if the resources were there to bring some really nice things crafters' way that are more crafting focussed. Heck, I wish they'd add craftable stuff that is not only made by us, but FOR us. I just don't think the focus of the dev team is there to expect it will ever come to fruition. Example of what I'm talking about (I'm an alchemist for the sake of this example): I walk into the trade skill instance and one of the NPC's hails me and beckons me over. "Siraa! Have you heard the rumor about the reknowned alchemist Fitzbeger the Great?" (I take note that he has a little icon above his head indicating he has a quest available and wonder what that's all about, so i go over and hail him to begin conversation) Siraa: I haven't heard, what is this rumor of which you speak? NPC: They say he has discovered the secret to making a Philosopher's Stone! Siraa: ORLY? NPC: YARLY! (okay, sorry, I got a bit corny there, but it's not like I write game dialogue for a living) Anyway, from here the conversation could lead to a quest that leads me on the hunt for this renowned alchemist. It could be made in a way that no one is sure where he is, and you have to travel around and talk to other famous alchemists to follow up on leads. Each step of the way they might make you prove you are as good an alchemist as them, so you have to craft some specific things. They could make the things you craft be special recipes even, that you have to go out and find, or go out to locate special harvests for. And yep, here's where it could get difficult for pure crafters who have no adventurer levels. But by NOT having the stuff involve actually killing anything...it would still be doable, just a challenge. They could have some steps of the quest line require you to get something made by someone who is NOT an alchemist, but a different craft skill... interwine quest lines for various professions, etc. if they wanted to make it take some team effort. Then, after a long and arduous search and much time spent you would be rewarded with the knowledge of making the Philosophers stone. An item that when used grants +10 to chemistry and +3% success... or whatever.. I would love it if we crafters not only got some special things requiring that kind of time investment and effort, but also if some of the special things we could make were for our own use! ...methinks doing this is a lot more effort than just throwing stuff in the game and adding it to loot tables, from a development standpoint, however.
[p][size="x-small"]( This is completely off topic but I couldn't resist this reply .. )[/size] [/p][p]Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: [/p] [p] Ya know .. the other day .. a person was arguing with my hubby on the cost of doing a commission of Rare Plate Armor. [/p][p]The customer was going to be providing the rare so my hubby just was asking for the cost of fuels and a small fee for the regular raws (roots/pelts/ore). Since, my hubby was going to get exp off it he didn't mind not being "paid" for the combine but of course didn't want to lose his money/time he had put into the harvesting of the raws and buying of the fuels .. I think he estimated @ 1 silver each raw + the fuel price. [/p][p]The would be customer said his price was too high and he was going to get a guildie to do it for free .. [/p][p]I did a trade of Tailored Armor Items that I had on hand for the Rares and "earned" 5 silver above the cost of what it cost in fuels alone. For 5 pieces of Rare Leather Armor. [/p][p]A while back there was this lowbie spamming the channels looking for someone to do a T3 spell combine .. they were asking for @ 1hour without any response. I logged on to my Sage and asked which spell .. it turned out to be in a book I didn't have yet .. I bought the book off of someone for @7 gold. The would be customer argued with me on the price of fuels. I was going to do it for Fuel price (they had the rare) because it would have given me green pristine bonus. Basically, I wasted 7 gold and time. [/p][p]I'm a casual crafter. I don't craft for primarly. ( I consider myself an Adventurer first ) I actually craft just for relaxation & personal use. It is rather soothing. Same with Harvesting for me. So, the only Crafting Commissions I do are when either people have been spamming for a while without hope or when someone gives me a direct tells because they did a /who crafter. But, I will still argue with someone trying to get me to craft something for free. I'm not taking a loss on something just because "you" don't think crafting is a real aspect of the game. [/p][p]There are still costs associated with crafting. I don't get my books for free, I take the time and harvest most if not all my raws, fuels are expensive as they go up in tiers and my time is precious to me. [/p]
I've never said all raiders bot to tradeskill or that there aren't tradeskillers who raid (or raiders who choose to tradeskill as well). Heck, I've even staunchly defended the fact there are a small number of people who do both (and sadly their prestige got watered down with the 2 HQs without a commission system requiring high level tradeskilling prompting many who disdain tradeskills to grind up a tradeskill by whatever means at their disposal). I don't only craft. I raid, too (just not on the same character as my level 70 alchemist... wizards are a dime a dozen, bards arent'.. my dirge raids). I also RP. I -hate- soloing, but dislike purely pickup groups more. If Rijacki was still on Guk and the guild I am in there was capable of raiding EH (they're in Death Toll), I would still want the recipe (No Trade) of a fabled item to come from a difficult tradeskill quest (actually involving crafting and not just easy deliveries and easy special item harvests) with the primary component for the recipe to be No Trade and to come from the difficult raid zone. THAT involves both the crafter (doing crafting) and the raider (doing raiding) in obtaining the item. I agree that raid items should ultimately come from raid zones (i.e. the component required to make the recipe). I even agree that raid rewards should be No Trade (even though we, as a Qeynos only guild, have to let items "rot" at times). What I don't agree with is that tradeskillers should be required to be high level raiders in order to do high-end tradeskilling. High-end raiders aren't required to do any crafting (they don't even need to do crafting for the 2 KoS HQs anymore) in order to experience their high-end raiding. What I don't agree with is that tradeskilling is not involved in obtaining the ability to make the items, just raiding. It is a raid reward, not a crafting one. Someone mentioned hearing Illucide saying that they'll be adding recipes to all heroic zones. I would love for that person to actually post the link to that statement 'cause I am 100% positive it doesn't exist. Illucide has alluded to them adding recipes to other places which could be -just- the provisioner recipes which were added to Unrest. There hasn't been a statement about adding something to every zone or even actually adding anything in that is a reward for crafting that involves crafting and isn't just a drop or quest reward for an adventurer in whatever location.
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: Everything you said would be true....if you ignored the way things really are.Upper tier crafting minus a few items as I stated before, is not rewarding. There is also no reward garnered by crafting itself. You miss the actual nature of the relationship- you don't need crafted food, armor or anything else really. There are viable alternatives that come purely from adventuring-especially in t7. You want those items that you buy from tradeskillers and desire is not dependence. Tradeskills on the other hand needs adventurers for everything at present- there is 0 crafting advancement except leveling itself that does not involve an adventurer. The is not desire, this is need since, if you are crafting you want to actually sell items. You say nothing has changed and in many respects, that can't be argued. Ignoring every legitimate point made here, let's agree that if these were drops that were tradable no one would have made a peep here. But...wait...if people are complaining then something did change! The dynamic did. Now, instead of all crafters being equal in ability, a segment of the playerbase- a large number of which did not want to be where they were- just got a significant boost over everyone else. This is all about perception, in this case the perception that one set of tradeskillers is better than another. Ilucide did not help matters with his post about being "passive" and his parsing of the words "high end crafters". He's also proposed more of the same so what exactly does this mean for crafters in general who bought SOE's sales pitch about co-equality? Again, the major issues here are the lack of viable crafting ways to advance and the competition with raiders once they have their fill of this stuff. Have you seen avatar loot? Some of the stuff that drops from EoF raids that are being done now is much better than the fable crafted so it won't be long until those tradable wares start being sold- I give it a month. Then what's the argument? Nothing has changed again? It's just for raiders?I just want things like this made no- trade until general crafting is better able to absorb the blow.
Yep...that happens to me, and I'll assume everyone else too. I don't mind making monetary sacrifices for guildies, and friends. Even friends of friends....but I've had my share of strange requests. While some people do seem to think that others should invest thier own time and money in making items for others, I tend to think those people are in the minority. Exceptions to the symbiotic existence shared between adventurers and crafters don't invalidate the rule.
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: The issue though is that for one side it's an option and for the other it's not. At any point in the relationship, adventurers can choose to forgo crafted goods- especially in T7. The crafter on the other hand cannot do that. It's not just because they need the adventurer for cash but because it's the only way to advance as a crafter. We would not be having these discussions if crafting had a way to advance itself- not components, just the recipes. If 1000 crafters know how to make something but only 1 raid component drops thats still just one item being made for one raider (or whoever bought loot rights) so I really can't see an issue there. I'd really rather not see the entrenching of the idea that in order to be a "high end crafter" you have to also adventure raid but that's exactly what's starting here. That's not what they sold.
I would be happy with these new recipes if they were not charged. Not only does that make no sense from a roleplaying point of view, it is likely to restrict access to the recipes to hard-core raiders. Most guilds with have someone who can use any of these recipes and they will keep them as replacements for when they run out of charges. If the recipes were permanent, like the "Secrets of ..." books then once everyone in the guild who wanted one had one they would appear on the broker for non-raiding crafters to obtain. I do raid a bit, but I generally do not like doing the same zone repeatedly with the same toon. Once having been successful is enough. I also am not keen on raids that take several hours. Most of my raiding is T5 or T6 zones, and I organise many of the raids myself. My goals when adventuring are exploration and quests, not xp unless I am very near to leveling, and very rarely loot. These new recipes are clearly not aimed at the type of player I am.
I still say nothing has changed. I have 3 lvl 70 characters who haven't bought a single tradeskilled items since DoF other than a few spells, consumables and the Ju-JU dolls in my charm slots. Even if/when these items hit the market the people buying them will be people who have lots of money and have long since replaced all their master crafted gear. In fact even when they raise the level limit, since all my lvl 70's already have nearly full legendary gear that is lvl 67+ i doubt i'll spend any money on mastercrafted gear even then. The advantage of these recipes is it actually writes some crafters back into the equation, since I would actually purchase a fabled crafted item. I don't raid and usually solo or do small groups so I would think that most adventurers are even better equiped than me.
[p]Outclassing what you can make?[/p][p]In order for one of those items to affect your market, 2 things need to happen.[/p][p]First, one or more of those items needs to be a replacement to something you can make, second, the item and/or component needs to be avalible on the open market in the same price range as your product.[/p][p]The first of these is valid, some (not all) of the items made are for the same purpose as tradeskill made items (though they do a much better job).[/p][p]The second, never ever going to happen in a million years (that is not exagerating).[/p][p]In order for these items to affect YOU, they need to be able to compete with what you are able to make. The people that are getting these items to drop have little to no use for anything you can make, so you are not losing a customer from them. The components themselves are not something that a raiding guild will be putting on the broker for some time to come (and some of them they will likely never put on the broker, especially the components needed to make the consumables).[/p][p]If/when these components go on the broker, they will be set at such a price that no one that would use any current tradeskilled gear (short of hex dolls, ammo, adept 3s and food/drink) would even think to look for gear that costs that much. If a player is able to afford these components, they will have already been well past the stage of wearing crafted gear, they would have upgraded past it to legandary and prolly be on fabled now.[/p][p]You will not lose a single customer from this, thus it doesn't affect you. [/p]
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: We are looking at it differently and that's a major difference in the disagreement. You're also picking easy markets and ignoring the vendor provides, albeit lower quality, food and drink, and poisons that actually rival crafted. That's a digression though and would do a great disservice to the complaint. Desire is not need. I really don't care how many ways you want to dress it up but, when you have the option to immediately terminate the relationship with minimal issues, that's not need. Crafters currently don't have this option. Besides, I never said it wasn't a 2 way street, what I said was that crafting is currently impossible to advance without adventuring- a relationship that is not reciprocated. I also say if these items were actually no-trade, which they should be if people are going to continuously make the statement that they are for raiders, then crafters would have no legit complaint because there would be no potential of marketability. If the markets aren't affected then the crafter isn't affected and this gear stays right where so many people have said it belongs. This is not t5 anymore this is post KoS. Any guild that can clear EH has a full compliment of crafters and will for the foreseeable future. You say having them (recipe and result)tradable makes it possible for regular crafters to get them but I ask again, why would my competition sell to me?Why would they let me in a market they hold a monopoly over?
I really hope you are right. But, I see some much nicer loot drop from other places and now avatars. From my perspective? I give it a month, maybe and believe me I hope I'm very wrong on this but.... I just don't see it.
Well said. I think this was a nice addition and gives a bonus to those people who both adventure and craft. I don't understand where all the complaints are coming from. It's not like these new items are going to impact my sales of xegonite armor. They are for completely different markets, as the price range will indicate. People who will be buying these pieces probably wouldn't be interested in crafted items (aside from consumables) anyways. It would be like Yugo worrying that Ferrari is starting production on a new line of high end automobiles. I don't see how this hurts crafters at all.
[p]I'm making assumptions here, but, well, yeah...[/p][p]There are 15 recipes, no idea how many components.[/p][p]The scroll that sages make is something that no guild would sell, at least not in this tier. A ~10k power free, fast casting DoT is just too good to sell...[/p][p]Drink with +28 to all stats? Not likely to be sold. The extra out of combat power regen is a nice added effect to this...[/p][p]The poison... see above, its the best damaging poison in the game, by a mile, no one will be selling it this tier.[/p][p]A cool house item with 2.5k status reduction is something everyone in the guild would want. Looks like it has a clicky teleport effect as well, not about to be sold...[/p][p]The arrows will add a significant amount of DPS to rangers in particular, any guild with a ranger will not be selling them.[/p][p]The plate forearms I am not sure about. They have high mitigation, Str and Sta, but I dont see a guardian taking them over the set forearms. Bezerkers will definatly want them though, maybe crusaders as well. These may make it to the broker eventully, but I'd wager at about 75 - 80 times the price of any mastercrafted items (on Guk at least... 100p for a top end fabled is about the going rate).[/p][p]The staff. Not really great for a mage. OK for a healer I guess, but there are better out there. This is one that, assuming the component can only make this, it will end up on the broker for a rediculous amount.[/p][p]The caster ring is OK again, seems a little lacking though (needs an effect IMO). Raw stats are lacking, but the HP and power are nice. Would assume most mages and healers would take one for resists, but there are better rings out there for them. May end up being sold for 50 - 80p in the next few months.[/p][p]The DW piercer has no proc, but a very high DR for a DW, stats are a little lacking, but OK. Would assume most DW class in the guild would want one, but am not sure about the delay on it. Not likely to end up on the broker for months at least...[/p][p]The mage boots are the best I can think of, except for 'maybe' the ones from the avitars (havn't seen them since they got upped). Not likely to end up for sale for ages, if ever.[/p][p]A 1 hander with a 90.8 DR? yeah, not likely to be sold off in a hurry. Nice stats too.[/p][p]A bow with a 113.5 DR, 40 str and a damage proc... to my knowledge this is the best bow in the game now, not going to be sold.[/p][p]The tower shield I am not sure on either. Nice effect and stats and all, but so few classes can use it I would expect it to be up for sale faster than the rest, considering the number of warriors and crusaders most raid guild have.[/p][p]The melee wrist is nice, and I would think most melee/tank classes would want one. May be wrong though.[/p][p]The leather healer BP has nice stats, but there are better drops in the game, even from EH. Would think it could use an effect as well. May come up for sale in the next few months if nothing else can be made from the same component.[/p][p]Also dont forget that just because a guild is raiding EH, doesn't mean they are raiding avitars.[/p][p]Some of the items above are better than anything else in the game. Some are not.[/p][p] [/p]
Some issues you fight on principle others you fight in practicality. While I think Ilucide's statement about "high end " crafting fuels a lot of the principle, I also think there is a practical argument to be made but it's all starting to blur. When "high end" crafters went into the update notes, I like many assumed that meant t7 crafters, after all, what other way is there currently to be "high end" in crafting? I actually raced my rerolled weaponsmith to cap in less than a month so I wouldn't miss it. Ilucide was/is doing such a great job this was just unexpected...by me. Raston and Rijacki called it perfectly. It's no secret many tradeskillers really aren't happy in this game- and by tradeskillers I mean those who took it up for it's original purpose, not just self-sufficience and heritage quests- this is just the issue that managed to set people off. It's not even a real set off if you look at most of the posts. It's more a statement against market tiering ideas like this could be and what appears to be the lack of any plan for crafting advancement that actually requires...crafting. The damage done to crafting from things like KoS (this is nothing by comparison) is not going to go away until they add in some way for crafting to advance itself. A much deeper issue perhaps at work here is that we don't want this to be the model for "fixes" and "improvements".We haven't seen anything remotely close to a plan for crafting since summer '05 under Frizznik and all we're seeing now is the furtherance of crafting through adventuring becoming the entrenched model. That is not the co-equality that was sold. Let's not count recipes, let count content. What content wise has been added for tradeskills in...ever? Why do people who only craft even still play this game?
Like I said I hope I'm wrong. As to the bolded, while true, those guilds still have to be accounted for.Thanks for actually going through it.
