whether the crafter sells it or the raider sells it. How does one effect the crafters market more then the other?
Id hate to make you more upset, however since this game was created. Crafting has always been secondary. I have only been on one game, were crafting was a primary class selection and that was Star Wars Galaxy. From the beginning you kill rats on the Far Journey until you complete the Isle of Refuge you are immersed in adventure. As for "missing the point" I dont feel the same way. I believe ive made my point and it is valid.
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: [p]Cause crafters who choose not to raid lose out in the market. They can't get the recipes, thus missing out to raiders who craft (which is a lot of them since some high end quests required players to grind up their crafters).[/p][p]When it comes to adventuring, players who choose not to raid ever don't lose out to players who do. Raiders get high end gear from raiding, and the other players get it from adventuring and time to time from the bazaar. I guess at times, a raider can cause some items to stay out of the reach of the casual player by having the PP to keep some items priced high on the bazaar (talking economics here).[/p]
[p]yea umm, no it wasn't. Otherwise, your harvesting skill wouldn't be based off of your highest skill now, would it? [/p][p]Although I don't see anyone taking a lvl70 crafter/lvl 1 adventurer harvesting in Bonemire now do you?[/p][p] [/p][p]and Egeis, Deson totally blows apart your Free Market statement since everyone should have an equal shot in a free market. Hell your own Wiki link does it as well! What the Devs are doing is TOTALLY saying that if you don't raid, you lose out on part of the crafting market.[/p][p]This says it all: <quote> "The notion of a free market is closely associated with laissez-faire economic philosophy, which advocates approximating this condition in the real world by mostly confining government intervention in economic matters to regulating against force and fraud among market participants. Hence, with government force limited to a defensive role, government itself does not initiate force in the marketplace beyond levying taxes in order to fund the maintenance of the free marketplace."[/p][p] By replacing goverment intervention with DEV intervention, you'd see that the Devs by requiring any crafter wishing to stay competitive in the market, they must take up raiding. Otherwise, they will lose their fair share of the market. This stance by the Devs can not be considered a "Defensive Role"[/p][p]In fact the Wiki author states that right here... <quote> "In political economics, the opposite extreme to the free market economy is the command economy, where decisions regarding production, distribution, and pricing are a matter of governmental control. In other words, a free market economy is "an economic system in which individuals, rather than government, make the majority of decisions regarding economic activities and transactions."[/p][p]By forcing crafters to take up raiding to stay competitive, the DEVs are showing that they want a COMMAND ECONOMY as they are making decisions regarding WHO can produce what. Only raiding crafters can Produce Fabled Crafted items. They are also controling distribution theoretically, since one can assume that most if not all of these items that the raiding crafters make will be distributed to their own raiding friends. Pricing, well do I even have to go into this one too!?![/p]
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: It doesn't... if the 2 can compete equally. The entire complaint comes from EQ2 selling crafting as a viable alternative to adventuring. The expectation inherent to that is that it will be supported and that there will either be an equal co-dependence or a measure of independent advancement of both. What this change does is give the adventurer a major advantage over the non. This wouldn't be much of an issue were there a broader market range and ways for crafters to advance by crafting but, those simply don't exist making the problem intolerable for the market and really the morale for crafters who bought into the advertised premise of crafting. What the game has done and what they sold are different issues. As before stated, had they never sold crafting as co-equal, they wouldn't have anyone upset over it because there would be no expectation of support. As to making your point, it was flawed and unfocused. As I pointed out in my reply to you, no one is complaining about the risk vs. reward and many of us here support the recipes in general. The problem is this change has too much potential to tier the market and utterly destroy the game for non-raiding crafters. The components/items should at least be no-trade until crafting is more fleshed out and can better absorb things like this. I'm not even going to comment on your free market note since my first reply effectively took care of that and you'd know it if you understood what you linked.
Some one else said they were almost offended by this. I am totally offended by it. Frankly, waiting around for a raid guild to just hand me the recipe (whether I have gone to them and contracted it ahead of time or not) is a heck of a lot more passive than, as I have advocated many times, a -hard- tradeskill related quest which involves.. hmm.. novel idea.. high end (or as you down-grade it, merely high-level) crafting to obtain the recipe through effort and not just waiting around for some raider to bestow it as some great favour. The EH "tradeskill rewards" are just and only -raid- rewards. They get the drops of both recipes and components which they then contract a craft bot to make. Plug in the recipe, plug in the component, out get the item. The tradeskiller just gets the "honor" of spending a short amount of time pushing a couple buttons (which, as others have shown, are exceptionally easy to automate.. so why wouldn't a raid guild use an automated version rather than a human). If you really want to -involve- tradeskillers, have the recipe hard to obtain but obtainable through the efforts of tradeskilling. Have the components still only come from the raid zone. And have BOTH the recipe and the components be No Trade. The items still won't be able to be made except from raiding (supposedly allowing the items to be much better) but the tradeskiller is involved (as I've advocated a few times) on an equal basis and not just as a bot or only there to have things bestowed upon them passively. That -I- can't obtain these recipes or components myself is 100% immaterial. The fact I -want- the components to be No Trade with the recipes (also No Trade) taking tradeskill -effort- means that even if I could work to obtain the recipe the odds of me making the items is still slim. BUT.. I would have been involved directly and not passively waiting around for someone to grant it to me. Oh well... I doubt I'll ever see anything like it in EQ2. There is an abundance of imagination in the development staff, just not for tradeskilling. The way it is now, it looks like it is supposed to be a passive activity only at the behest of adventuring or as an adventuring sideline (like in EQ1). *shrug* I should just give up on it again.
You know it just dawned on me- new legendary crafted arrows and I still don't see my friggin explosive tipped arrows! Rijacki my opinions aside, raiders like Ixnay never botted and loathe it. I'm not sure if you meant to imply raiders use bots but it sure can be read that way.You probably should take a break for awhile. It seems to be annoying you and if you only play to craft the game has never been worth your money save for the potential still in the system and we all know potential is nothing until realized. 2+ years is a long enough "trial" yes?
Exactly, thats the problem, for every interessting reward, tradeskillers have to go out and adventure to get it. Tradeskilling is just a sideactivity for adventurer. For example getting advanced t6 recipies from faction merchant, tradeskill rewards from fallen dynasty (ok only half because it include 'only' harvesting), secondary tradeskills (removed dependancy from TS, without any note why) and now again the recipies for fabled stuff. No one wants free stuff for tradeskllers, but when you can make quests for adventurers to get interessting stuff, why not also for tradeskillers ? I mean you should know, that tradeskillers outside a raiding guild will have a hard time to get the recipies. It was allready that way with the old fabled recipies. When will SOE start to take TS as a viable way to play the game and not just as a sideline for bored adventurer ?
So you would still feel complete, if your knowledge book would be missing some spells ? Make one example for any interessting reward for tradeskillers which does not include adventuring ? Who moan everytime they introduce something (HQ, secondary TS) which needs a highlevel TS until they remove the dependancy on the TS ? When I go to the adventure class threads I see a lot more of moan and whine then in the TS threads.
[p]Gear is earned by those adventurers that ding 70 then begin the effort to work through progression. The assignment of these recipes to loot tables allows one to level a crafter, then do nothing more. Please explain how 'high end' crafting can be defined by those that level for their HQ and never craft another item until this recipe drops?[/p][p]The downside should be obvious: Raiding provides a reason for a level 70 adventurer to continue ADVENTURING. After dinging 70 as a crafter there is no further reward for crafting. Fabled recipes should be obtainable only through a process taking a significant investment of CRAFTING effort beyond level 70. Once progression for crafters is developed, then progression for hybrid players should be introduced.[/p][p]This would make Fabled crafted gear the result of the combined effort to follow end-game progression in both the adventuring and crafting games. As introduced earning end-game crafting recipes requires no extra effort on the part of a raider, it is just another perk to break up their boredom.[/p][p]You started another thread with the premise that leveling a crafter was too much effort, so you want to destroy a couple of classes to ease the grind. Now you claim that leveling to 70 is passively acquiring assets? Try offering crafters progression beyond 70 and allow the dedicated to differentiate themselves. Many have offered you suggestions for implementing end-game crafting quests and content as a means of progressing a crafter.[/p][p]I will repeat myself: Give us Master Trainers. [/p][p]Before a Master Trainer will teach a crafter their fabled recipe make the crafter complete a training cycle: Complete 100 level 68 writs with a 5:30 timer and no cash bonus. Reducing the writ timer represents the Master Trainer expecting perfection from his student. The increased rate of failure adds the risk of economic loss to parallel the repair bills from raiding. Remove the cash bonus because no Master Trainer is going to pay their apprentice, and the reward is access to the recipe not cash.[/p][p]Put a Master Trainer in an out of the way location that is still accessible to a low level crafter, but not entirely safe; like the run to the crash site in Bonemire. Force the crafter to bring their materials and fuels; when you run out, return to town for more, no vendors, bankers, or mail-boxes. If the travel time is high enough it encourages the crafter to commit to staying as long as possible, forgoing both adventuring and maintaining their store. This would get the crafters out of their tradehalls and into the world.[/p][p]After this the crafter can purchase the no-trade recipe that this trainer has to offer. A casual crafter can complete the leveling grind to craft items for themselves and friends, to complete their HQs, and to sell a few items on the broker. Those willing to commit the effort beyond leveling would travel from Master Trainer to Master Trainer learning the most difficult and rare recipes over weeks of crafting. These ‘high-end' crafters would be sought out by adventurers to create the greatest of gear from the rarest of items looted off the most dangerous encounters.[/p][p]Your ‘high-end' crafting is raiders scribing trash drops.[/p][p]CRAFTING effort versus CRAFTING reward should define ‘high-end' crafting.[/p]
Ilucide wrote: I am extremely offended by this. Are you saying the only way to not be "passive" in this game is to be forced to stand around for hours with 23 other people to back you up if you make a mistake? For those of us not challenged by this concept, we are somehow inferior and are only "passive" players now? I am an extremely aggressive solo player. I nose around zones that are completely red and far out of my range just because I love to explore, and I love the challenge of managing to slip around mobs, or complete a non-combat quest there. I pride myself as a ranger (at least until social aggro was made ridiculous in many zones) in being able to find the right mob to pull and the right place to pull it and not find myself with tons of adds or jumped from behind because I wasn't careful with my surroundings. I know most of the old world, DoF, some KoS and most of EoF like the back of my hand because when I'm curious about a place, I go find out about it. I've done over 1000 quests and there are still many that I've missed that I go back to try to pursue. I have been a crafter since I first knew what it was on the island when I first started playing. All of my crafters were close to 50 when no subs went in. I used to keep lists of who made what subcombine and how many classes used it and what worts were used in each. I aggressively pursue my faction through writs and when societies were still in place, I worked my butt off to try to gain status there, too. I am not a passive adventurer and I am not a passive crafter. The only thing I do not do is raid. Now if you're saying that, despite the fact this game was billed as more casual friendly than EQ1, you want the only real way for progression for players to be through raiding and for tradeskills to be a sideline for raiders as they became in EQ1, than say that. None of this lollygagging around the bush about being a "passive" crafter or a "passive" adventurer. If raiding is your focus, as changes like these and comments like that made it sound, then tell us that so we can find a game that *is* friendly to the way we choose to play.
[p]I think this was a brilliant move by SOE! They aren't as passionate as some of you are, and don't post about it, but many raiders do tradeskills as well for the benefit of their guild. [/p][p]I absolutely agree with the limited charges, because I'd rather not everyone have a fabled bow because one person got a drop off Wuoshi. [/p][p]It's unfortunate but I think many of you are looking at this from a selfish standpoint. This wasn't about JUST adding content to tradeskills, it was about adding raid content. This content will be utilized by tons of people, and is an incentive for raiders to further their tradeskills.[/p]
And what about everyone else?Plus,even if the recipe dropped from badgers outside Qeynos and every crafter had them, the component still has to come from a raid. Regardless, the major issue is that the results are tradable. Given the historic speed of changes/additions to crafting, by the time general crafting gets anything to make this less of an impact, non-raiding crafters will have been in competition with raider crafters for markets that Ilucide himself said have issues. You like everyone else who is posting your position is completely missing the point of the anger so clearly stated in threads past and here- crafting itself has nothing. Crafting has 0 content, 0 incentive advance it, 0 that can actually be achieved through it. The very first new thing to hit crafting in a long time, something that really is a rehash of old ideas, requires dependence on raiders/raiding with 0 other outlet. If you are starving and see the well fed invited to the table before you, do you protest or just let it go? When the person who is supposed to be looking out for your interests tells you you need to put in effort and completely ignores that thats impossible-unless you view crafting as secondary- don't you get a little upset?When the same person refers to "high end crafters" as not being just high level crafters but raiders, don't you feel your effort is a bit slighted? Especially after KoS created so many "high end crafters" that despised crafting? All this comes from the way they sold crafting and they need to make a clear decision- either drop the idea and selling of crafting as a co-equal and viable alternative to adventuring or actually put some resources into making it such. Putting fablecrafted on raid trash for the benefit of a small few and skewing already fragile markets should not just be taken by rolling over.
Who would have thought, stuff that drops in a raid zone that is for raiders... And in reference to the trend of more possible recipes like this, there ARE ALREADY recipes like this outside of raid zones. Halasian Whiskey from Unrest anyone? Great crafted drink from a recipe with only 5 charges... Also, everyone is up in roars about the items being tradeable. Lets think about this for a second. The recipes have limited uses and require items dropped from raids. The items required from raids are used across all the different recipes from the raid so people might have multiple of these items they want. How many raiding guilds do you know that are just going to make these things to sell as opposed to making them for people in the guild to actually use? Especially when some of the items are consumables and will continually need to have more made. The problem of these popping up on the market in mass and cutting you out of business just isn't going to be there for a very long time.
if it is to be bloody raid content then take the tradeskiller out of it completely rather than insult us like this then? I had said earlier that I wouldn't have any major complaints about this if the recipes were tradeable... That was before I realized they were limited charge and the components and items were tradeable. Thank you SOE for devaluing mastercrafted even more.
And again you miss the point of the argument. If it's raid gear for raiders it shouldn't have been advertised as "high end crafting" and it should not be tradable- something that gives it potential to affect non-raider markets. And yes let's talk about Unrest, high level adventure zone that takes a good amount of time to complete. Where exactly does the crafter earn anything here? Again, no one really has much issue with these things in themselves, it's competing with them that's the problem. If you choose to just craft to enjoy yourself, you are at the mercy of your competitors. This is fine if crafting is a hobby but it was not sold as such. Since it was not sold has such, forcing crafters to compete against raiders and adventurers with no crafting content at all to lessen the blow is intolerable.
Still trying to get them to admit the change in Focus eh? That would be like trying to get them to admit that NGE was a bad thing and a mistake.
[p]Only people who raid need the "best stuff." So, there's some argument in favor of the best crafted items requiring the crafter to be a raider to get it. [/p][p]In a game with multiple play styles, there needs to be rewards that are stepped up incrementally based on the difficulty of exploring the content for that play style.[/p][p]EVERYONE can solo, therefore that should be the bottom of the barrel for rewards (generally speaking). [/p][p]Most everyone can engage in small group encounters, so it's the next step up.[/p][p]Getting a full group of people together to tackle some of the heroic challenges out there, the next.[/p][p]Getting a full raid together, and actually coordinating things in a way that brings success. That's the hardest. Therefore the best rewards.[/p][p] This isn't a hard concept. If crafters want to be able to craft really, really nice things then, technically, raiding has to be the route to get them. [/p][p]I believe people arguing against this fall into two camps:[/p][p]Camp 1 only has a problem with this because nothing was thrown the way of high level crafters that did NOT involve raiding. They'd be happy if they got some new toys too.[/p][p]Camp 2 wants to be able to do everything available to their chosen crafting class, without raiding, and probably also has issues with other raid-only rewards in the game because they just don't understand the basic premise of the reward levels outlined above. They don't realize that without it, raiding would have to be removed from the game entirely.[/p][p] I'm in camp 1, btw. I don't raid.. it's something I gave up a while ago, in a different MMO, and I don't plan to go back to it any time soon. Throw us a bone.[/p][p]I played WoW for 2 years after leaving EQ, and only recently returned to Norrath. The main reason I quit WoW was because crafting was pointless unless you raided. I did raid in WoW, on 2 different toons. The problem is that I did ALL of the craft skills and it annoyed me to no end that there was no real point to it for any of the ones that didn't raid. It was also annoying just how rare some of the craft recipes were, despite not being "the best" (77 runs of one raid instance, for example, and didn't see but 1 in 4 of the craft recipes that drop there...that's 18 MONTHS!) [/p][p]Anyway, this topic isn't about WoW, it's about EQ2...please don't turn crafting in Norrath into anything even closely reminscence of the joke they call crafting over in Azeroth...[/p][p] [/p]
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Believe it or not they have. Maybe not the change itself but for the bad will it and it's execution generated. For those of you who visit the flames site, I want you to go to LFG's thread over there titled, "Illucide's idea to combine....." and I want you to read what he says... really in the whole thread but especially post 29 to help understand what got us to this point. I've said it before, I, and I suspect most crafters, would simply ignore this if the results were no-trade. What I have seen is not. That means that I have to compete with raider crafters. This isn't t5. While there were many raiders who crafted then, it was nothing compared to what happened thanks to KoS. I am no longer competing against people who love to craft and have next to no chance to make the same contracts that existed in t5. Now I am competing with people who posted endlessly about how much they hated crafting while they ground them up for non- crafting reasons. These very same people have just been rewarded with just about the only thing worth anything in crafting right now. How exactly are people who took SOE at it's advertised word supposed to deal with that?
