Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: No, I was perfectly consistent. You made the argument that them being tradable made it a viable goal for I said why it wasn't realistic. I've also said the results should be no-trade, not the recipes. I also said crafting can't be advanced without adventuring, something I apparently must specify again. If you are fighting naked instead of wearing easy to get and significantly cheaper drops....your call. I also said you picked and chose your markets. You're not actually arguing the points, you're trying to get me to drift off into where you want me. Desire is still not need no matter how you dress it up. That necessity is not a reciprocated relationship. I can and do on my level 70 adventurer, ignore almost all crafted- and I can make all my own gear. Admittedly I'm not counting jewelry but that is primarily because that's just one class. So, if you are in that upper tier, do you use crafted Weapons? Armor? I suppose I could use adept 3's but I find masters almost the same price as the rares through up to about t7. Drink I admit is a necessity food on the other hand...meh. Those poisons are a good call but, you could very well play without them, that is not necessity, exactly the argument I made. You don't need any of it, you want it and I'm happy for you. But, can't you get armor from adventuring? Adepts and masters? Weapons? So, everything you need is available through adventuring right? What is the crafter equivalent. That was, is and always will be the point I make regardless to how you try to shape it. About the only thing I concede was that it was silly to even repsond to the post that started this exchange.
[p]Let us look at the progression for MOST classes.[/p][p]Adventure->get gear from adventuring->get skills from adventuring->make money from excess. The entire cycle is self contained. Yes, there are a few examples where this will not necessarily hold true, but they are more exceptions than the rule (potions, poisons and ammo are the only ones I can think of). In truth, most adventurers wouldn't even notice if tradeskilling was removed tomorrow and their 'consumables' were simply NPC gear. They'd simply move on and nothing would be majorily impacted (except for the money they make on selling rares in the vain attempt by crafters to make something useful).[/p][p]Now, let us look at tradeskilling...[/p][p]Craft->level->craft->check broker for books that an adventurer got->crap yourself when you see the price->go adventure to make money to be able to craft (or harvest, your choice)->pay the price for the book to be a little more useful->craft->craft->level->repeat ad naseum. Nothing about the crafting process is really rewardative to crafting, it is merely a means to support adventuring which is not what was sold to us. This change is putting more icing on a cake that is already sickenly sweet with it and we finally decided we had enough. Well, I've had enough for some time now, but that is besides the point.[/p][p]All we tradeskillers are asking for is a way for what we enjoy doing to reward what we enjoy doing, is that really all that difficult to understand? Would you hunt instances if no adventuring gear was dropped and the only thing that had any value were the boss mobs, but that was only useful for a level or two, or so cost so much to use it was hardly worth it? Would anyone raid if the rewards were not there? So if that is the case, why do people think we crafters should be shut out of the enjoyment and reward department?[/p]
I've provided you with real world examples of player crafted items I use daily. I shall continue to wait, patiently, and quietly, for you to show me the NPC equivalent items that 'rival' them.
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: And yet they were announced as rewards for high-end crafting. Rewards should have some impact. Rewards should be.. umm.. umm.. rewarding. It's the fact the raid drops advertised as something for crafting have no impact, are NOT a reward for crafting that is the sum total of the problem. As for your list of goods you can only get from crafters.... NPC sold poisons are different than the crafted ones (and actually are arguably better than the handcrafted damage poisons and not far from the damage potential of the master crafted). Because they're different doesn't negate the fact you can get NPC poisons and eschew the crafted. Does any NPC sell or drop handcrafted or even mastercrafted armor? No, the NPCs sell and drop different items than those, whether better or not. BTW, in EoF zones I have gotten drops or quests rewards (I forget which at the moment) potions and poisons identical (complete to the handcrafted tag) of those that are crafted.
[p]Maybe it doesn't hurt me, that depends on how many of these items hit the general market, which has yet to be determined. The problem is it doesn't benefit me. [/p][p]The core issue with crafting is no one wants most or all of the things many of us can make in T7 for all the reasons several people have so blithly spelled out in several posts here. I literally haven't sold a T5, 6 or 7 weapon in months (much less gouged anyone for them). Does anyone think it's good design to have players put effort into getting to level 70 as a weaponsmith, all the while trying to make friends and a name for herself and always do right by customers, and have literally no benefit from that? Imagine getting to level 70 as a Tickle Mimic and finding out no one wants you to help them kill stuff in groups or raids. Well, no one wants the help my weapons offer, apparently not even the people who solo.[/p][p]What I and several others here imagine as beneficial additions to end game crafting and what the Devs apparently (so far) envision are two different things.[/p][p]Like I said before, this needs to be extended to all playstyles and we also need crafting rewards that are aquired without having to kill something. (Which does not mean sitting at the table for the whole process, there is a lot more to this game that can be used to develop crafting oriented quests. Look at Fallen Dynasty.) Rewards should benefit us in the general game by allowing us to make something people want, which is the entire point of crafting.[/p]
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: [p] Actully, you are incorrect, not everyone needs/wants to work with crafters. People who raid do not normally buy mastercrafted gear and I can tell you that I can't even think of a tier where a crafted weapon was desired (and I'm a meleer). The only thing that you need to ADVENTURE is some consumables which could be placed on a vendor and not a single adventurer would mind in the slightest (would probably love it since they wouldn't have to deal with us greedy, self serving, not willing to give our time away crafters).[/p][p]I recently told a person to NOT buy the mastercrafted as it wasn't worth it and sent him to the broker to find viable alternatives that for his level were more than enough and cost 6% of the cost per piece. BTW, I'm an armorer. I play to the 'twink' market, to those who want more than they really need. I can tell you, there is very little (other than some customization options) that is different between Sivril and Feysteel and in your 30s, you aren't going to notice the difference. Sivril can be gotten entirely by adventurers without a crafter ever intervening. Lvl 20 armor can be gotten (that nearly blows our master crafted away) without a crafter being involved. Work some heroic intances in your 50s and start raiding there and you will never have to see a crafter for your armors ever again (hell, just do the instances and you won't).[/p][p]Weapons, I use a lvl 58 legendary rather than the POS xegonite version, just no comparison.[/p][p]As for furniture, what does that have to do with adventurering? You don't need a fancy south qeynos house to adventure, one of the 4c hovels will do just fine until you can get enough 'status' item by adventuring to compensate for one of the nicer apartments in SQ.[/p][p]The only place your argument stands are in the consumable market and only a handful of those really.[/p][p]and honestly, rares are not that expensive when you compare the prices to a year ago, I can not explain why rares still command those prices, they really aren't worth it. Probably the only one that is actually priced right, right now is Xegonite which can be gotten between 50-60g. To be honest, that is pushing their worth.[/p][p]I still stand that crafting could be removed and there be NO major negative impacts on the adventuring community, period. I can't say the same for crafters if adventurers stopped.[/p][p]As for these recipes being no impact at all, all it does is create yet another tier of gear that the real crafters of the game, those who bought the game on the premise that we would be equal to adventurers, will never be able to compete with. But in the end, all I'm asking for is for the components and the result to be no trade. Is that really that bad a thing?[/p]
Lydiaele wrote: [p]Correct. It does not benifit you.[/p][p]This is not content for the average crafter, it is content for the high end crafter.[/p][p]While it looks like it is content for raiders that also craft, that is only partially true. It is content for raiders, in the form of the finished product, it is content for raiders that also craft in terms of the recipes, but it is also content for crafters that have a good network of customers, or are able to branch out easily.[/p][p]If your determined about making these things, look for a guild on your server that does not have a member of your particular class at level 70. Send that guilds leader or an officer a request to make anything his guild would need from EH, provided they supply all materials. While most raiding guilds have a lot of crafters, its not hard to find one that does not have a particular class (on most servers at least, some are lacking in raiding guilds all together). Since there are recipes for all 9 tradeskill classes, every guild will need either a crafter of every class, or the assistance of a crafter of whatever clas they do not already have.[/p]
Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: [p]Right.[/p][p]While not quite as good, this...[/p][p]\aITEM -1590129454 -126090085:Boneyard Sludge\/a [/p][p]is comparible to...[/p][p]\aITEM -1500281764 -1162069354:Grandmaster's Hemotoxin\/a[/p][p]There is a diffrance in the amount of damage each will do, but in a solo or heroic situation, that diffrance will not be noticed. Once you take the cost in to account, the merchant purchased poison would be prefered by most players that know of its existance.[/p][p]Status item? lol, I had a 2 room in QH that I had reduced to no status from purely collection rewards. Carpenters are not needed, they are there to decorate.[/p][p]Food and drink? I stick to fabled thanks...[/p][p]\aITEM -1562016031 -1240106642:Seven Layer Chocolate Cake\/a and \aITEM 723437474 -454675707:Frothy Amber Ale\/a[/p][p]Ammo? well, for non raiders, store bought is almost as good as crafted, to the point where its not noticable. Rangers can summon more than enough ammo for themselves if they want to now as well. As for raiders, well, they are using bows to summon better stuff than crafters can make anyway.[/p][p]Any other examples?[/p]
Actually what you envision as beneficial additions and what the devs are currently putting in are both things that are needed to make tradeskills viable again. I wouldn't matter if they put in 300 quests so you can get uber crafting gear, you would still be unable to make anything even remotely desirable by the general community (barring those who make consumables). Putting in fabled crafting items is the first step to extending the logevity of crafting. Since crafting is currently too easy the fabled crafting must be tied to epic aventurers or else you break the game entirely. Unless of course there is a massive crafting revamp, and that is completely off topic.
[p] I am not sure how you can miss the downside to this design debacle. This is the sort of design I would expect in EQ1 -- very reminiscent of Qivic and crafting.[/p][p]First let me say that you have created something that will benefit a very minute subset of players. The majority of players will see NOTHING from this design. For a reason which defies logic SOE has chosen to bestow on Raiders the best of the best, despite the fact that they are a minority of the player base. Yet you turn around and thoughtlessly treat the majority of the players like 2nd class citizens, unworthy of developer attention when it comes to the extra special items.[/p][p]SOE has never viewed crafting as an essential part of a game. It has always played 2nd filled to adventuring and raiding. You have only to look at EQ1 to see the truth of this. And while EQ2 started out differently it seems to be ending up in the same place. Crafting was supposed to be an alternate profession to adventuring. It was made, well not difficulty, but rather involved and yes at times boring and tedious. But hey -- adventuring is also boring and tedious especially if you raid.[/p][p]But the quality of the good produced made the time required and the tedium seemed less so. Crafters ACTUALLY MADE SOMTHING other players wanted!! - What a surprise. Crafter werer fulfilling their true role in the game -- making useful objects for other players! However, somewhere along the line, that design got a radical overhaul. Uberguild and Raiders continually complained that crafter could make Lengendary items and that was a slap in the face to the adventuring kind. They whined large and loud enough ( and since this minority of players are very vocal and tend to go to Fan Faires and get Invited to Summits) of course their self-serving, selfish vision of the game prevailed. Tradskills were neutered under the hand of Beghn whose one-step combine, removal of crafted Legendary items, increase in harvesting node output (never noticed that it increased the amount of rares though), and downgrading of stats on weapons, armor etc. totally wrecked the market for crafted items.[/p][p]This change, I suspect, also was brought about to stop so many people from soloing and/or make it more difficult for them. Soloers could no longer get Legendary items from crafters, they would have to group and/or raid to obtain them. Or find a way to earn plats to buy them on the brokers. Prices of dropped Legendary escalated as a result of this change. Soloing players were told that mastercrafted was good enough for them, along with APP IV spells ( Transmuting made the price of ADEPT I way too high for a lot of players). [/p][p]Now you come along and tell tradeskillers that we have these wonderful new recipes -- BUT YOU HAVE TO RAID TO GET THEM -- wow -- how much more can you slap tradeskillers in the face with this warped vision of tradeskilling. Many people tradeskill and have NO DESIRE to adventure or raid. And many have no desire to have interaction with large groups of adventurers or raiders. You can't force interactions or behvioural modifications on people, ( USSR tried that and it failed) -- when you try your hand at social engineering ( and heavens knows there is TOO much social engineering in this game-- not as bad as Vanguard but way too much)-- you really don't achieve anything but to anger a lot more people than you please, and if you persist in these type of changes eventually people move on to another game. [/p][p]I would advise you to think long and hard before you try to marry adventuing and crafting -- like one step-combines it is a slippery slope to failure. Remember there are many quests that can be designed to be difficult and challenging without requiring interaction with Raiders and Uberguilds. It is bad enough that this game rewards guild so heavily ( EQ1 had a better balance there) and now you want to increase the reward for raiding beyond what they already get. Sorry I think these EH recipes are just plain and simply -- a POOR DESIGN.[/p]
Despite whether we agree or disagree, this is why I like you in discussions. Thank you. Maroger, all I can reply to is that the changes were not intended to kill anything or an experiment in social engineering.Everything really is done with the best intentions- despite missteps. Even Beghn who you have such a distaste for had nothing but the best of intentions and both his posts and actions prove that. What was done here was just adding back something we all asked for before- the old "Secrets of... " books.The only difference is that this no longer is the world from T5. The addition does nothing for general crafting and it was stated repeatedly that it wasn't meant for it. That's fine too actually. The only issues with it are really dev viewpoint- he never should have said "high end crafters" and meant raiding crafters, never should have made a comment about being "passive" and promising more additions of this type absent a comprehensive plan for crafting should have raised alarm bells before it was even posted. For me the principle on this is I don't want additions of this type to actually be seen as doing something for general crafting when it clearly is not.It is doing something for adventure crafting and what has been proposed will continue to be just that until crafters can earn their own skills/advancement. Mid 05' crafters were promised quests and advancement and there is nothing on the horizon to even suggest that is anywhere close to reality(or still planned for that matter), and now statements have been made that further the current situation. Actually thinking more about it, I wouldn't have even blinked if this addition were part of a much larger plan akin to what Friznik laid out but I have no evidence of that. What I do have is what appears to be more of the same. If, even long term, they won't devote the needed resources to genuinely fix and improve crafting, they really need to come out and say that. Without serious effort and changes akin to LU13, crafting will never be what they sold. If they are unwilling to do what it takes, they need to let their players know so we can stop looking for it.
[p]Aye, it would be nice to know if I can stop wasting my time leveling crafters if the whole sitation is going to be moot. I will NEVER be an active raider, I might go on one every now and then (I would like to get my relic, even if it is lego space man), but I'm not going to be a 3 time a week (or even a 1 time a week) raider, I simply can not merge that time requirement into my real life. And to be honest, I really don't care to either.[/p][p]What I do care about is as fabled gear become more and more easy to obtain for non raiders who then begin to trivialize the 'normal' content that 'normal' content will get another boost making even harder for non raiders to compete without having 'contacts' to get this fabled gear.[/p][p]Guess who will be bringing in all the recipes? That's right, raid guilds. Guess who will be standing there with their even more worthless mastercrafted? Won't be us, we'll be extinct.[/p]
I sell a good bit of that worthless mastercrafted. Enough to keep me in dragon kibble, at least. These recipes don't change a thing. It didn't when the world ended at T5 and they were the Secrets recipes (and these are implimented much better than those, IMO), and it won't change anything now. The world will not end because one is unable to obtain these recipes, and eventually they will trickle down (just like they did before). I too, want something *just* for crafters, but we're not going to get it handed to us without risk.
How do you know ? The second point depends only on the drop rate of this items. And you should know how often SOE f.. up the drop rate in new instances. If in 1 month the raiding guilds have full sets, they will start selling this stuff, and it will be a hot seller, because everyone who can pay the price will want some. Rare crafted cost also much more then common, but very seldom in t7 someone buy a common tower shield ;-) In some cases people don't buy stuff and prefer to farm instances to get the real good stuff. Any proof for your last statement ? Can you see into the future ?
T5 was a different crafting environment and no one ever asked for anything without without effort or "risk". What has been asked for entirely throughout this thread and so many others was the opportunity to differentiate one's self through crafting as a primary play style and that opportunity does not yet exist and doesn't even seem to be on the drawing boards. Risk has nothing to do with the complaints and really needs to stop being brought into the argument. Actually, at this point the complaint isn't even on topic in this thread anymore.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Easy loot with better stats from places like the nest, den, and blackscale are what has lowered the value of crafted goods, not fabled craftable items from the hardest raid zone in the game. I think most of you are making a big deal over nothing. If having fabled goods on the broker were going to kill the economy then the tradable stuff from HoS, DT, and other places would have done it already.
That was because the drop rate was really low. I raidet t5 and I have seen only 1-2 drop of the raws and maybe 2-3 recipies. We will see in 1 month when we know how often the raws drop.
[p]Unfortunately I haven't seen enough creativity to do that without adventuring. But, all in all. What is risk? Dying trying to kill diffictult mobs? Dying to harvest in high level zones that you can't fight back in to advance your craft?[/p][p] [/p][p]Eh, may open up a can of worms. Ah well. [/p]
