Paladin agro

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by sojero, Jun 12, 2016.

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  1. Xanathol Augur

    So some ballpark guesses to put things into perspective...

    Melee dps: ~37784.5 (44.6%) (Slay was ~12670 of that or 15%)
    Spell dps: ~46902.5 (55.4%)

    Of that...
    Lion's Roar dps: ~11960 (14.1%)
    Disruptive Persecution dps: ~6941.5 (8.2%)
    Doctrine of Rescission + Vanquish the Fallen dps: ~15571.4 (18.4%)

    So comparing to Linden's parse, his melee was about half as much (he fought for much longer and thus Holyforge would have worn off) and he did a lot more healing. Perhaps he could have cast disruptive, doctrine, and vanquish more depending on his healing needs (which were Raven's main drivers of spell dps outside of Lion's) but meh - that's as much situational as anything else. I haven't played with any of y'all and certainly don't know Linden, but it feels like you all are piling on a guy when his circumstances appear rather obviously different from your own. /sidles back out the door
  2. Xanathol Augur

    Just pointing out that riposte dps on a single mob is trivial (parse it some time) - fighting multiple mobs at once changes this.
  3. Ravengloome Augur

    A raid geared cleric with a 2hander and Rk3 proc hammer spell can sustain about 35kish dps (with bard) whilst healing me through 2hander tanking consistent pulls of 3 to 7 mobs. I could drop down to SB and pull 3 to 5 more but then either one of us might have to patch lowering our group sustain overall.

    Honestly in tthat type of scenario, bursts aren't that useful because it's 3.5s between casts, if I need a patch I use HOTT heals or Sorrow. I actually click my 2.0, 1st spire, and self AOTI though.

    Let alone the fact the vast majority of the clerics contrast and interventions are twinned because of glorious nukes. Or the fact an on the ball cleric can Arb/2.0 and I can cast a quick dicho force/splash/HOTT heal and even out my HP. Or the fact 98% of the time,I have box bard in group which puts are crit heal rate at 89%.

    If I switch to stuns I lose 12k dps from ripostes and nuke dps combined. Double that on undead. No thanks.
  4. sojero One hit wonder

    You are certainly right, but it all adds up, and a repost slay can be a good bit for a pally. get back out that door :)
    Xanathol likes this.
  5. shiftie Augur

    As a paladin you are losing the following stunning a mob
    1damage shield dps
    2riposte dps worse if the mob is undead
    3spell dps which is rather significant these days

    With a healer in raid gear you should as a paladin be able to go max dps in group content. If you can't then the group game is wildly overturned for groupers. Conversely max dps is head to head with max aggro if done with a bit of brain power.

    I'm not picking on him. A parse was posted to start this thread and there was a lot of aggro generating abilities left unused. I was commenting on those and then he is trying to convince me that stun locking is more overall dps which it is not. And by not I mean not even close.
  6. p2aa Augur

    Before that warriors got Phantom Aggressor, we needed to chain all our short refresh aggro abilities on the Boss Mob to keep aggro. Add to that Blast of Anger had also a longer refresh and was less hate too.
    I think the problem of aggro he has on Boss Mob is that he doesn't chain them during the whole duration of his MT time. You get aggro at start with Projection (same thing than Warriors, even if our pet is more frontloaded hate maybe), that gives you a big aggro boost lead on DPS, but that's not enough.
    When we had only Projection of Fury as first aggro boost, I needed to spam all my short aggro discs to keep a good lead on raid DPS.
    Btw aggro was a real thing back at this time on raid bosses too, and you could see the difference between good aggro warriors and less good ones.
    Phantom has made it easy mode, all warriors can be aggro kings, even if some bad warriors still don't use enough Phantom in their tools lol
  7. josh Augur

    well in raids just ask a rogue to use their pet and then taunt off of it.
  8. Linden Augur

    It was mentioned how much dps I am losing by not using nukes, I simply stated the opposite and supported that with a parse. Shiftie, you are not raiding TBM content. Not to be rude, but, what business do you have even commenting about aggro on the raid level? You wouldn't know.
    I have no problem with aggro on the group level...There isnt any issue. Just stating the fact that SK's and Warriors aggro generation on raids is much better then paladins. Can we move on now.
  9. Linden Augur

    No bro...the problem isnt short term tanking, its that other tanks will taunt to keep up on hate list, and thats fine, but then its the paladins lack of generation to make enough aggro to stay on top..rolling 2 crushs, Valiant, FoD, should be enough to generate the aggro needed to keep higher, but its not...Like I said, its not an issue, bu tthe fact is [paladin Aggro is a good amount below what it is for warriors and SK's. Once beacon and ageless, unflinching, lodestar is down, rolling those 4, spamming those 4, isnt enough even with Marr's salvation
  10. Triconix Augur

    And let's not forget that 1) Aggressor is horribly broken right now and has been for quite some time and 2) most people don't know how to use it properly.

    Knight quick refresh aggro abilities actually dominate warriors, unless you want to consider a 1 minute refresh BoA "quick."

    Both their crushes are more aggro than anything we got not named phantom and blast of anger by pretty significant margins. One of the crushes is a quicker refresh than our quickest refresh and is something like 5k more aggro per cast.

    Sorry man, just don't believe you. You're aggro abilities make warrior abilities look like a wet noodle (besides our broken pet which doesn't work very well atm). Before you keep arguing, just do yourself a favor and look up warrior abilities. Then come back and try to argue that your aggro isn't good enough.
  11. Vdidar Augur

    this thread is truly something!
  12. Linden Augur

    And yeah thats not enough, initial aggro boost is great, until another tank jumps on the aggro list using taunt, then they are right below, its that area where I have problems. Building enough aggro. And I have experimented with enough techniques, thinking, it had to be me, I am doing something wrong. But its not. Its the way paladins generate hate vs SK's. That has put them in the number 2 spot for MT rotation on most raids. And its great. They finally got some love. But lets not pretend and blame the player. And you, as an SK already know this to be true, Sojero.
  13. shiftie Augur

    If people are taunting you're playing with idiots. All tanks can
    See the aggro meter and chase aggro without taunt
    Use no fail taunts and then aggro dump

    As for not raiding tbm. I don't have to raid current content to know that your assertions of stun lock tanking and dps are dead wrong.

    Burning a mob down while casting stun doesn't support your claim. It isn't hard to grasp that if you can do 100k dps with stuns that are 0 damage and you change that to nukes that can do 40k damage and you gain 5k from ripostes and 2k from damage shields you will do 147k instead of 100k by using nukes over stuns. Numbers made up because I am at work.
  14. Linden Augur

    Nothing else for me to say about this.
  15. Triconix Augur

    Pallies are OP, NERF THE KNIGHTS!
  16. Linden Augur

    See, you dont get it! By that statement you dont understand how to do it. Its not nukes you need, or stuns that allow you to open the gate of a complete burn and sustain while tanking. If you cast nukes, you will not be able to heal. Its healing. Its healing that makes it all happen. Because when you are crippled defensively and tanking a boss with a burn going, guess what? You cast a nuke, and you better hope you have some AA hrealing up to get you through those huge hits you are taking, otherwise fall back on Grief, Sorrow, Pentinence, Contrition. FR, reset and repeat as needed....Nukes will get you killed. Obviously you have not brought your game up to that level yet! Dont use stuns on named mobs, no need to. they dont work, no crushes, no stuns. Healing.

    And this is why I tell people....Dont listen to any crap on the forums, you wont learn anything....Think outside the box, and be creative.

    And I am not trying to be a ...But people need to stop with all the BS posts....Keep things real...Telling me i am doing this wrong and that wrong....I am sitting here looking back, going, oh, I remember when I played like that, or thought those things...But I have become a better player since then.
    If ther eis one Paladin that posts to these forums I hold in high regard its, Abazzagaroth, he was my mentor back on the rathe, and probably one of the best paladins in the game. I would like him to ring in on this.
  17. sojero One hit wonder

    You should NEVER Marr's another tank, unless you were meaning a dps'er but then your previous statement about other tanks mislead me. You should get VoT if you are having issues.

    With the new mechanic for taunt if the other tank is taunting then not turning off attack to let you get that 4-6% back, then that is an issue with the other tank if within 5 seconds, and for you after that, unless he is actively fighting you for it, then back on him again.

    Crushes VoD and valiant are enough but you have to chain them and never stop casting, but that is the same with every tank, you need to keep your spell gems and hate AA on cool down. Also, make sure you didn't accidentally trade your hate mask out or have bold attacks turned off, those would be huge hits to your agro generation.
  18. sojero One hit wonder

    Than that is an issue with your SK's, because they have the ability to dump agro and insta grab it, if you are fighting them, then that is a conversation you need to have with them.
  19. Linden Augur

    Come on now Shiftie....when it comes up to the undead part of the missions, the rules change. You pull them all, pop deflection, holyguardian up, then down right away, full burn, and slaughter it all..Stuns???? There is a time and place for everything, that is not the time for stuns. thats the time to kill
  20. shik Elder

    I don't like Crushes. My aggro is sufficient to hold a boss or an add, a boss add or a dead dwarf.
    I like consecration and ostracize,
    and between that and my other rotating HOTT spells I don't really have all this free time to crush.
    I do pretty good DPS probably.
    Of course if a warrior or an other knight wanted to take my aggro for a sec i'm sure they could.
    I read they use taunt while you're tanking? They are dumb.
    Since when do I need to measure my aggro based on my ability to fight a off?
    I don't have time for fighting dicks.
    Doesn't anyone use Thunder of Karana?
    What about Righteous Umbrage?
    I didn't read the whole thread.
    I like the dicho spell.
    Where's that guy that advocated paladins use their heal over time?
    He was pretty stubborn and dumb, I liked him.
    Sungloome stopped sending me nudes so i've been depressed lately.
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