Paladin agro

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by sojero, Jun 12, 2016.

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  1. sojero One hit wonder

    I really don't want to derail the warrior thread anymore so will move it over here, to a new thread. This is not posted to bash Linden because he is a decent person and player, but I would like some pallies to give him some pointers, or can tell me that he did everything possible and is the most amazing paladin in eq history.

    19 of 36 mobs were undead
    time -- 681 seconds

    Combined: A tortured soul on 1/25/2016
    Spells Cast
    Linden - 446
    --- Ageless Enmity IV - 3
    --- Ardent Force Rk. III - 37
    --- Ardent Fury Strike II - 25
    --- Beacon of the Righteous VIII - 6
    --- Blessing of Life XVIII - 29
    --- Brilliant Vindication Rk. II - 6
    --- Burst of Dayspring Rk. III - 3
    --- Burst of Sunrise - 1
    --- Disruptive Persecution VII - 4
    --- Divine Stun XIII - 1
    --- Force of Ardency Rk. II - 18
    --- Force of Disruption XV - 62
    --- Force of the Darkened Sea Rk. II - 38
    --- Grief Rk. II - 1
    --- Group Armor of the Inquisitor IV - 1
    --- Hallowed Lodestar VI - 5
    --- Holy Guardian Heal - 48
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XXIII - 25
    --- Lesser Yaulp IV - 37
    --- Projection of Piety III - 2
    --- Shield Flash - 1
    --- Sorrow - 1
    --- Tendon Slice - 38
    --- Umbrage Strike - 18
    --- Valiant Deflection Rk. III - 34
    --- Vanquish the Fallen II - 2

    Produced by GamParse v1.5.1.5[
  2. OpieSlayundead New Member

    Well this is kinda off topic I think, and without too much time to look at this vs. my own parses, I don't see any Rune Shield casts. I think pallies should really macro the magmatic deflector to another key they spam. It's not massive, but 2k/min aggro to anything on your hate list isn't awful.
  3. sojero One hit wonder

    Not off topic at all, anything we can do to help each other do better is the point.
  4. Nightops Augur

    Looks similar to my casting lists. An 11 min HA is pretty quick so trying to establish good agro on a trash mob for a paladin would have been difficult.

    Like it was mentioned in the quote... crush vs stun turns into agro & dps vs less damage taken.

    Several things in a paladins arsenal are trade-offs which lots of people don't understand orknow about. If we want to generate agro, then we trade off some of our methods to dps.

    I havent checked on Alla's for exact info, but Inquisitors procs were negative agro so he went with dps over agro. These procs would not have lasted long and likely would have only affected 10 mobs. However, he used the Force of Disruption AA over the Disruptive Persecution... so he traded agro for dps in the second instance. I would have done the same thing and it likely would not have been easy to give up on the Disruptive persecution to lose that dps.

    Several uses of the AE agro AAs so he was actively trying to establish hate. Everything else looks pretty good except the missing Valorius Rage AA for dps... but he may have been trying to save it for a time with the random/rare recouse we get on kill shots.
    Linden likes this.
  5. OpieSlayundead New Member

    Actually, the deflector doesn't show up on the parse oddly enough. This is me from a recent, pretty much solo, run of the same gribble...except my bridge didn't have undead. I wasn't fighting anyone for aggro but what I can notice is the lack of crushes/nukes. I'm not advocating for any particular playstyle but this is a look at what i do to both stun and push personal dps.

    Combined: A tortured soul on 6/12/2016

    OpieSlayundead - 1747
    --- Ardent Force Rk. II - 59
    --- Ardent Fury Strike II - 49
    --- Balefire Burst XX - 2
    --- Banestrike - 24
    --- Beacon of the Righteous VIII - 6
    --- Black Steel - 18
    --- Blessing of Life XVIII - 145
    --- Blessing of Unity - 2
    --- Blunted Strike II - 193
    --- Brilliant Vindication Rk. II - 75
    --- Consecration Rk. III - 110
    --- Crush of Povar Rk. II - 71
    --- Disruptive Persecution VII - 196
    --- Divine Power - 30
    --- Elixir of Speed X - 1
    --- Flames of the Valiant - 6
    --- Flames of the Valiant Strike - 45
    --- Force of Disruption XV - 7
    --- Force of the Darkened Sea Rk. II - 22
    --- Grief Rk. II - 2
    --- Hallowed Lodestar VI - 2
    --- Holyforge Disc - 1
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XVI - 105
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment XVI - 5
    --- Invocation of the Devout - 3
    --- Invocation of the Faithful - 2
    --- Laudation Rk. III - 125
    --- Lesser Yaulp IV - 38
    --- Marr's Gift II - 5
    --- Necromantic Curse - 18
    --- Preservation of the Iceclad Rk. II - 12
    --- Received Vie - 2
    --- Repeating Crossbow - 16
    --- Second Spire of Holiness IV - 6
    --- Shackles of Tunare II - 2
    --- Sorrow - 3
    --- Tendon Slice - 290
    --- Thunder of Karana II - 5
    --- Umbrage Strike II - 40
    --- Valorous Rage IX - 3
    --- Vanquish the Fallen II - 2
    --- Vie faded - 11

    Produced by GamParse v1.5.1.7
  6. Ravengloome Augur

    I am sorry I totally love trolling other SK's and Paladins, but i am not sure what you think this was missing that it should have had.

    Question was aggro light? If the answer is yes, then the problem was he wasnt crushing?

    Was his DPS ? Because that gets solved by using DP more/nuking (example I only see 6 casts of Brilliant Vindi, In that time frame he had the ability to cast it a crapload more)

    No doctrines (you mentioned undead)

    No consecration (you mentioned undead, and it lands on live mobs)

    No Self AOTI/No 2.0 click/1st spire

    < I am guessing you guys werent pulling 20 at a time?

    I mean i can situationally see a use for the way he used his spells, but it is completely different from my person playstyle/approach. I could go into a longwinded egotistic dissertation on how i would have done it or what my cast parses look like in something like this, but who gives a crap. DId what he was doing work? If the answer is yes, well who gives a crap.

    But 681 seconds seems long.

    Did you guys duo this + mercs?

    THe other thing, I damn well know you know what you are looking for in the parse and i know you have a general clue on paladins so you shoulda just said "his dps sucked" or "his aggro sucked" or "he died alot" Just come out and say it.

    As far as the last part of the quote (the one you made of him)

    Normally in the good knight teams I have been in (usually 2 to 4 paladins + A token SK or maybe 2) we conversed with the TO (tank officer not tank order) figured out what our assignments were going to be and then tailored our spellset to fit that task. That way we werent wasting valuable spellslots on things we didnt need up, it also made us much more efficient at our one task. However on the flipside it gave up some of the paladins utilty.

    If a paladin sets up for it ahead of time, he can be in a TO without a massive problem, its NBD. However most paladins do not put a microscope on their spellsets and just have 1 catch all maximum utility spellset thgat they use 80% of the time, then wonder why the 20% of the time they get rolled or can't complete a specific task (using the boss tanking as an example)

    I have spellsets specifically for boss tanking, kiting, stunlocking adds, group healing (for split raiding/weird nights whatever made me get stuck playing priest), dpsing, dpsing undead, curing/ae curing

    and bunch of spellsets to necro hotswap.

    BUT none of that matters given your 1 example and the 1 quote you made are conflicting in what they seem to be approaching. Because HA =/= endgame, even group endgame content.

    PRetty sure i can tab out to pornhub and still beat an HA in under 11 minutes tho.
  7. Brohg Augur

    Spoiler us, bro. A cast log from tanking a whatever?
  8. Ravengloome Augur

    Flash of light and Sense Undead.
    Dre., shik and sojero like this.
  9. sojero One hit wonder

    We duo'd it + 1 caster merc. Don't want to get into dps cause that wasn't the point. average mob lifespan was 19 seconds, so not bad for 2 tanks + 1 caster merc :) and I know I was way under geared at the time. Also we were not trying to mass pull it, it was an exercise to see if he could keep agro over me even when I am not trying to get agro. Though he did use stuns, so that negated much of what I was trying to get across.

    I want to help him with his agro, he says he has issues, and I know he shouldn't, so I wanted some others perspectives on things that could help. Honestly the thread is only here to help him and others that might have questions, that is why I left dps out, I dont want it to be a epeen dps thread. Not to say that suggesting throwing in dps spells between casts of crushes is not something that should also be mentioned.

    I also don't come right out and say it because I could go to him and do that, I want him to hear others opinions. I know the one parse/post is limiting but it is all I have for him. I tried to help him, but I just don't think it got through, or at least the way I wanted it to.

    If he wants he can post what his normal casting looks like when he is in the main tank order, or even on adds during raids. I don't raid with his crew so I cannot say how they are, and can only go on what he says about not being able to keep agro.

    As to the different spell sets that is a great thing to share as well if you are willing. I know as an sk I have about 8 sets that I cycle through depening on role and situation.
  10. Ravengloome Augur

    Ok Ill bite:

    Heres what i do in group content, I click a hedgewizard pot (34.6% procrate last i checked and that was before the changes to procs last year) (that hate gets multiplied by mask)

    Crush Crush Glorious Consecration (add in Laudation if)
    alternate DP or FOD depending on the aggro meter
    I Keep ardent force loaded for when I actually need the mob to be stunned

    Sometimes I click reprove/repel every time its up, sometimes I only hit it when i actually need the mitigation

    I throw in a Valiant early on the first cycle through before the glorious, Then I cycle one in when i actually need the heal or i need something to click

    I alternate Beacon/Hallowed Choadstar every other pull (and make sure i pull enough that that the next one will be up before i pull the next cluster) < I use these constantly even on single targets if i need more aggro, because why not

    Rune shield clicky I use everytime its up because meh why not, I also have some stuff from OMM vox/naggy that i have bound to another key for fast casting clickies, and use those when they are up, because free aggro.

    After the initial hate dump I just Admonish/Ostra between swings throwing in Consecration/Laudation and call it good.

    If someone eats a round I laugh at them and hit Dicho Force.

    But I also use my 2hander all the time because why not? (The swing aggro does help you to be lazy just saying, its not like OMG SO MUCH MORE HATE, but its more like "welp i can cast more nukes now who cares"). Yes i do this in Current group content, because I can afford to.

    I mean if hate is really a problem

    Glyph of Angry thoughts has a higher hate modifier than VOT.

    So can always burn those.
  11. sojero One hit wonder

    Can you share with us what you do for raid adds and main tanking?
  12. Brohg Augur

  13. Ravengloome Augur

    I usually just stand behind the big mob and let the warriors do the work while dpsing. obviously.

    In all seriousness, Raid adds i dont have a set goto, it depends on how ruff they are and which healer i have in my group and If i know i can trust them to not be terrible. (/loadspellset Addsbadhealer, /loadspellset Addsgoodhealer), One is basically my regular screw it i am dpsing spellset and the other is my omgineedtahealalot spellset.

    Raid MTing depends entirely on the mob and anticipated duration.

    Going into a new event that i've never tanked ill start with this template roughly


    I get wild growth Before engage, unless my HP can be reduced to nothing in 1 bad round, then I load Stance in 11
    I talk to someone that has tanked the mob and look over my spells and decide on 11/12 (if i have determined the difference between growth and stance will not cause a critical failure)

    After I do the event afew times (or afew tries/wipes on new events) i tweak that template from there

    Any spell that doesn't show up in my cast parse an acceptable amount of times, gets rep'd with something i think will increase my ability to do my job next time

    Alot of times Ill end up spamming (via multibind because i am super lazy) in order of frequency Valiant > admonish > Protective. If the Vie from Protective is not needed Valiant Admon Ostra

    BUT RAVEN you didnt say you load Protective (it usually ends up being 11) < The other thing I cast Stance right before engage if its loaded and hotswap during GCD during deflection, because thats what deflection is for.

    If I somehow Burn through the yellow heals and FR them and burn through them again (its happened like one time ever), Ill shield flash and hotswap a 2nd burst into slot 6

    BUT and I cannot stress this enough, unless I have like no healing inc I avoid burst like its the plague.
    If you cannot sustain your HP with the HOTT heals with minimal massive omfg spikes. You are going to die painfully. If you are having massive spikes, the 3.3s of deadtime on burst, is going to lock you out of doing what you need to do. at the most inopportune time possible its like murphy's law or some

    Also On boss tanking, you don't just derp Repel everytime its up, use that when you see an obvious gap in heals. This is when it becomes a reactive not proactive tool. (I know i've said in like a hundred posts click this everytime its up because why not, so if you've read that this is the exception)

    other than that when you run out of discs, if you haven't used LOH by then, pop it. And start bracing yourself for swap target healing.
  14. shiftie Augur

    I'll bite I can point out at least a few things.

    I see no scorpions anger or potion procs for nukes
    I see no use of armor x line that's free heals and free aggro
    No blunted blade
    No bp click from omm
    No lifetap click

    If heals aren't really needed he should be spamming

    Undead/live nuke
    Undead/live nuke

    If still not enough aggro replace one nuke with the other crush

    Weave an undead nuke where he can in gcd

    Do that with a mr potion on and win eq

    Also not using undead slow on inc or gcd

    Crystal of daylight?

    No preservation?

    If you insist on stunning as a show of your superior aggro bear in mind stun lies to the aggro meter and the other players.

    I could pick it apart more but it is an 11 min parse and I've grown weary of pointing things he could choose to use.
  15. sojero One hit wonder

    for raven

    Guess I was thinking something about how you maintain agro:

    Start with unflinching then crush --> FoD (during cooldown) --> crush --> ae hate (during cooldown) --> Valiant --> FoD --> etc

    I haven't done in on a paladin in so long that its probably changed, I know it has for sk.
  16. Ravengloome Augur

    Well jeez you want the spell set info and you want me to list what order to do it in + activateable abilities too? I might as well just write a how to not be terrible and hold aggro guide.

    sojero likes this.
  17. Linden Augur

    Ok...Everyone is so damn quick to monday morning quarter back...First, ill respond to Sojero. I can post parse after parse. But what good will that do? Ask you're guild leaders what they think of me as a paladin, or ask you're Paladin Class Leader. Ask in guild chat. Ask general chat. That should answer any questions you might have, Sojero. Now as for spell line up..Every player knows, that will change based on the dynamics. Who you are grouped with, how much DPS you have, which mission, which zone, etc. Paladin / SK both using DPS mercs. Stuns make total sense. reduces the damage intake, procs group heals, and aggro is not the factor. Its keeping damage intake to a minimal while tanking. so we can get through the mission faster with no down time. If I had been using crushes and not stuns, I would have been healing left and right. Since I wasnt taking damage, no need for armor or defensive disc. I reserve that for moments when its needed, if its needed..No valor of rage because I was saving that for the end which is all undead. Usually. I think it was, Into the Hills we were doing. So yeah crush line completely ineffective in this case. Stuns trump aggro, a stunned mob isnt hurting anyone. and my mana isnt being burned on healing, so non stop pulling and killing is my objective. Crush lines work great, dont get me wrong, but for most group's mobs are killed so fast, that crush's are a waste. Stuns much better in group situations...CRUSHS: Yes, they are great...great for Offtanking in raids, Great for MT'ing on raids...Crushs are used on the raid level. Not the group level, not in TBM content. if you are using crushes in group content, something is probably wrong. End of story.

    Even if you are tanking in a group and killing a named....You dont use crushes. Total waste....Ageless enmity, pet down, FD, Unflinching affirmation, then Burn...If you need to use crushes to hold the mob while you are burning, something is wrong....

    For a paladin Tanking, they should be chain stunning in any group situation that allows them too and using AA's to control aggro as needed, not using crush spells.
    For TDS content, where stuns are mostly ineffective. Im using the armor line first for mitigation, Crush, crush, Admonish, Valliant, armor of inquisitor, burst heals. Consecration.
    otherwise yeah, crushs are for raids, not group content, not in tbm. and certainly not in DH missions, sorry. If you need to gank aggro Ageless enmity works great, Divine call is another one for pulling a mob off a group member in those Dh missions.
  18. Linden Augur

    Vigor on 3/2/2016

    Linden - 586
    --- Admonish Rk. III - 10
    --- Ardent Fury Strike II - 10
    --- Aurora of Dayspring Rk. III - 10
    --- Balefire Burst XX - 2
    --- Blessing of Life XVIII - 53
    --- Brilliant Vindication Rk. III - 25
    --- Burst of Dayspring Rk. III - 2
    --- Burst of Sunrise - 1
    --- Disruptive Persecution VII - 43
    --- Doctrine of Abrogation Rk. III - 35
    --- Doctrine of Rescission Rk. III - 18
    --- Elixir of Speed X - 2
    --- Flames of Redemption - 1
    --- Flames of Redemption Strike - 11
    --- Glyph of the Cataclysm - 2
    --- Group Armor of the Inquisitor IV - 1
    --- Hand of Piety XXXIV - 2
    --- Holyforge Disc - 1
    --- Infusion of the Faithful - 1
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XXIII - 50
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment XXIII - 2
    --- Intensity of the Resolute - 1
    --- Lay on Hands XXIX - 1
    --- Lesser Yaulp IV - 31
    --- Lion's Roar 3 - 187
    --- Marr's Gift II - 2
    --- Radiant Cure IX - 2
    --- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 3
    --- Received Paragon - 1
    --- Received Shaman Epic - 4
    --- Received Twincast - 2
    --- Scorpion's Agony Poison Strike VIII - 18
    --- Second Spire of Holiness IV - 3
    --- Slain - 2
    --- Splash of Atonement Rk. III - 26
    --- Thunder of Karana II - 1
    --- Umbrage Strike - 23
    --- Valiant Deflection Rk. III - 1
    --- Valorous Rage IX - 1
    --- Vanquish the Fallen II - 5

    /GU Vigor in 1314s, 520562k @396166sdps --- #3 Linden 40258k@30638sdps (35191dps in 1144s) [7.73%]
    /tell Linden Linden -vs- Vigor: -- DMG: 40258325 -- DPS: 35191 -- Scaled: 30638 -- DirDmg: 21477546 -- Slash: 9944946 -- Slay: 8750079 -- Bash: 80828 -- Environmental: 4926 -- % dmg as normal: 38.2% -- % dmg as critical: 57.4% -- Non-crit rate: 61.9% -- crit rate: 34% -- crippling rate: 4% -- Attempts: 2384 -- Hits: 1607 -- Missed: 777 -- Accuracy: 67.4% -- Avg Hit: 25051 -- Max hit: 490247 -- DMG to PC: 1359986

    Now go ahead and tell me how you could have done this so much better. Keep in Mind, my dps suffered because I died twice.

    trying to minimize me and my ability as a paladin to hoard you're OP status as an SK in the area of aggro does not work, I am not complaining about it, I thihnk its great Warriors and SK's are built with the tools needed to take on that role. I am not asking for an increase in hate generation either, I am fine the way things are...I agree though that warriors should get some love. I am happy that SK's finally did recently.

    Its funny how players will critique every detail of another players parse and add into it what they did wrong, what they could have done better, without considering or knowing important details, such as, how was the healing during that raid? what was the makeup and strengths of the raid force that would have determined the spell line up a paladin might have gone with for that specific roster. so many factors, that for anyone to monday morning quarter back, I have to say they are completely full of .
    A good paladin knows the strengths and weakness of his guilds roster on any given night, and will adjust his line up to compensate accordingly. Without knowing what those factors are no one should be critiquing anything.
  19. Linden Augur

    I guarantee you wont be using those in a tbm group you will be using stuns and burst heals if you are smart.
  20. Ravengloome Augur

    Ok Ill bite
    /GU Vim in 300s, 505377k @1684591sdps --- #8 Sunmistress 25237k@84122sdps (84687dps in 298s) [4.99%]
    /tell Sunmistress Sunmistress -vs- Vim: -- DMG: 25236593 -- DPS: 84687 -- Scaled: 84122 -- DirDmg: 13976794 -- Slash: 7427427 -- Slay: 3775932 -- Bash: 56440 -- % dmg as normal: 27.9% -- % dmg as critical: 64% -- Non-crit rate: 51.4% -- crit rate: 40.8% -- crippling rate: 7.8% -- Attempts: 1197 -- Hits: 873 -- Missed: 324 -- Accuracy: 72.9% -- Avg Hit: 28907 -- Max hit: 592901 -- DMG to PC: 0
    Vim on 4/5/2016

    Sunmistress - 254
    --- Admonish Rk. III - 2
    --- Ardent Fury Strike - 15
    --- Banestrike - 1
    --- Blessing of Life XVIII - 22
    --- Brilliant Vindication Rk. II - 14
    --- Consecration Rk. III - 13
    --- Dichotomic Force - 1 (I needed to heal someone and i was lazy)
    --- Disruptive Persecution VII - 32
    --- Doctrine of Abrogation Rk. III - 31
    --- Doctrine of Rescission Rk. III - 34
    --- Glyph of Lost Secrets - 1
    --- Holyforge Disc - 1
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XXIII - 7 (not sure why it didnt proc more? I might have waited till Wizards dropped mana burn, and by then the fights over in 60s or so)
    --- Inquisitor's Judgment XXIII - 1
    --- Laudation Rk. II - 11
    --- Lesser Yaulp IV - 2 (should have had more but i got slacky)
    --- Lion's Roar 1 - 42
    --- Marr's Gift II - 1
    --- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 2
    --- Received Paragon - 1
    --- Umbrage Strike III - 20
    --- Vanquish the Fallen II - 3

    VR/Pureforge/7th were down from the event before
    Used Lost secrets because no Pureforge/VR for Cata, its arguable but I went OOM at 280s in so I probably made the right call.
    Had 2 focused Paragons, MGB Warcry
    Didn't die I am not sure how you can even die on this event (or it take 1144s, was that with 2 groups? we only had 35 in the raid and it was 300s)

    Was on ramp.
    Keep in mind in 1/4 of the time i did 70% of the total damage you did. WITHOUT 7th/Pureforge or VR
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