Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Sokki Augur

    That sounds like a guild issue and not an issue with the event itself. I'm all for tuning raids down if they are truly over tuned, but wanting events to be nerfed because guilds are having issues with numbers or classes is a different story. There's been plenty of suggestions on how to remedy guild problems like that with out nerfing the event, which takes dev time away from other issues they're working on that effect all players.
    Bigstomp and Cicelee like this.
  2. Millianna Augur

    Future expansions need to consider smaller raid size requirements. There just isn't anyway around it. There is quite a few uber guilds struggling to keep a large raid force. Uber guilds recruit players from mid tier guilds and the mid tier guilds have been folding. When one of your server's uner guild is recruiting groupers willing to learn raids, there definitely a problem.
  3. Thrillho Augur

    If it becomes a standard to wait 6 months before Easy Mode kicks in, it's not going to drive anyone to do any better. They're not going to want to push their character - put in the time for quests, gear, augs, skills, abilities, tradeskills. The skill floor is going to be lowered simply because "well, if I don't bother, the devs give me the win anyway in 6 months." It's a poor attitude to have. You're talking about the top tier guilds suffering because the mid-tier is going to be quitting. The top tier has people quitting already, and they call up folks from the mid tiers to replace. If you drop that skill floor, what happens to the top tier? As I said earlier, the skill level of the top tier is most likely less than what it already was, simply because of the best & brightest leaving and being replaced by folks who can't fill their shoes.

    Again, each expansion release essentially nerfs the previous one. There's no reason why someone wouldn't be able to go back to a previous expansion to finish off any raids they've missed. The content will be the same, but easier due to improvements already. Sure, the gear won't be as nice as the current content - but top tier gear is the reward when you win while its current.

    The success of a raid as a whole is tied to how well each person performs. If I have a bard in my group that keeps dying, that impacts my DPS. If I have a tank that can't hold aggro, I have to throttle mine. If a cleric doesn't know how to weave in a rez, that's one less person adding to the raid. A lot of the success of top tier guilds is because of the amplification each person gets when they're with other strong players. But now the drive to perform better won't be there.
    Reynen and Maedhros like this.
  4. Millianna Augur

    I'm sorry but you cannot push your character if you cannot get the same people to raid consistently. The whole point is to farm the lower tier stuff until geared significantly enough to move through the content. If a raid requires 42 players but only 21 show up consistently- good luck progressing.
  5. Bigstomp Augur


    Most of the raids are already boring and little challenge. At least we still have to somewhat pay attention. Making them easier just increases the tedium for those that already have them on farm. When beta comes out and we have something new to do, sure, tune away. But they're already easy enough for now.
    Reynen likes this.
  6. Sissruukk Augur

    Who are you to determine what I deserve or not? I am not talking about entitlement. I am talking about what you are bringing up....that you, as a player, are deciding what I deserve or not based upon your standards.
  7. Bigstomp Augur


    There are some very good group players out there that just haven't tried raiding or at least raiding with a real raid guild for whatever reason (time, commitment, they think they aren't good enough, whatever).
    Often they can be a lot better than a mediocre raider who's been coasting along in their raid gear with their raid geared friends making everything seem easy. Some of our best recruits have been plucked more or less from the group ranks (sorta - casual raids)
    Thrillho likes this.
  8. MyShadower Augur

    I did not decide on the raid requirements or game mechanics. That is the developers. I am just stated a fact that applies here as in many other areas, just trying your best does not mean you go home with a win, for lack of a better term. My question is not meant to be derogatory. I am actually curious what you mean. What does any player deserve for showing up, trying their best but still falling short? You said people are being penalized, so they are not getting some reward?

    Example:
    If you get to a waypoint in the raid should do you get coins for the effort so you can gear up, albeit not as fast as if you had won.
  9. Millianna Augur

    I never said groupers aren't good players. Groupers are groupers for a reason and it's difficult to convert those players. Besides a few PuR guilds, most of the mid tier guilds have collapsed. Now you have two guilds that have completed EoK fighting over recruits.
  10. Sissruukk Augur

    Well, to begin with, I wasn't talking game mechanics. I understand game mechanics being what they are, and going in and trying to beat an objective in game to get a reward. I am not opposed to that in any way.
    My op was more about the attitude that some have exhibited in this thread that people who do not have the ability to commit as much to the game as them consider these people "slackers" and therefore not worthy of attaining any reward, regardless of the effort they put in when they are able to do so. Different from actual slackers who just show up and actually feel entitled to get something just for being there, without putting forth any effort.
    Yes, sometimes your best effort isn't enough. But, unlike real slackers, people who can't commit as much time to the game, yet still have a passion for it, will do what they can to still improve, to still learn, to still up their game to try to achieve that next goal. Yet there are some people here that fail to recognize this, and still want to classify these folks as "slackers."
  11. Maedhros Augur


    I assure you, noone has a problem with item number 2(I refuse to say slacker there) outside of guilds like ROI where their strategy for flagging demands very close to flawless attendance for 54 people during the race when a new expansion opens. The rest of the year I'm sure even they dont care too much if strong players have crappy attendance.

    Your assumption that anyone with a brain calls item number 2 slackers is wrong. One of my most elite players is a ranger who has had to work 100 hrs a week for the last month. I am not going to boot one of my best players because his summertime attendance is screwed over by real life obligations.

    I have a player that lives in Australia and we almost never see her outside of raids, which start at like 4am her time zone. Most of our members are asleep when she can get on to play, and as such doesnt have much opportunity to group with other guildmates, and yet she sits in the top 15 or so best geared enchanters in the game because she busts her butt on the playtime she does have to better her toon, mostly solo or boxing. Let one of my members call a person like that a slacker, and see how quick I rip them an earful.

    Being a slacker has nothing to do with your real life obligations at all. A slacker falls very clearly into their definition by not giving a crap about the quality of their augs, not making an effort to work on AA's or progression for the heroic AA's or special items you gain, and the cardinal sin of not being able to take constructive criticism from their peers or leadership when it comes to improving the performance of their toon.

    Based on that criteria, and being curious, I looked at your magelo and can assure you, that if anyone calls you a slacker, it is because of the first definition you listed. Unless youre a brand new heroic toon, your augs are a disaster and your AA count is not much above what a player would receive via autogrant. You have a 65hp mana endr aug in your legs, to say nothing of the spots that simply have no augs at all. You have a handful of outstanding augs, that I will assume were rotting in general chat and you went and looted, based on the quality of the other augs and the presumed effort to attain something like Nesalies spell gem in your ring which is a 7 or 8 year old aug that you can buy with coins in Tained West Karana by mooching along on DH HA's.

    So you mean to tell me that when you look at the efforts that have gone into your toon, you feel good sayin "heck ya man, I deserve to be among the people that have beaten EOK'?

    You asked who says what you do or do not deserve in this game.
    The answer is you deserve nothing. You earn what you get. If you cant handle that, this isnt the game for you.

    Participation trophies in little league teams are one thing, those are children. Grown ups that play a video game should have to beat the game based on their abilities, since we can assume that they are all older than 6 years old.
    Seldom, kizant and Phrovo1 like this.
  12. Annastasya Augur

    As has been pointed out,one thing mid tier guilds don't have is consistent attendance across the board, so there may be other factors in who gets blockers and who doesn't. i do agree that dps from both overall application and individual execution has been the lynch pin regarding success on *most* raid events for several years now.
  13. Maedhros Augur

    As far as tuning the raids, I am definitely in support of a very light tune to some of the mechanics on the Queen, Atrebes vault and the Karzok, but I dont think it would very much alter who can or cannot beat the raids.
    Any kind of nerf that makes the raids gutless would do far more harm than good.

    On Queen, the ever shortening timers for Doomlight could be adjusted so that some guilds could still get her down at their slower pace without affecting much. I too have never thought it made sense that the Queen kills a captain and they come right back.

    On Atrebes vault, the timer for each phase could be extended a little bit. 30 more seconds per weapons, books, golems and dervishes wouldnt really affect the raid too much, and you might see a small handful of guilds get passed it that couldnt before.

    On the Karzok, I feel like beating this is a rite of passage. I wouldnt want to see the Aura of Kor-Sha reduced because that is really the main obstacle of the raid. I could see the respawn timer on the beetle being extended a bit, and the effects of the mana drain being softened to allow some guilds to extend the amount of time that they can actually work on this before they get oom and fail.

    I posted on this thread a week ago saying I was available to talk to anyone in the guilds that are struggling and got no tells or emails.
    My guess is noone else that offered to give some advice had any tells or emails either.

    That makes me wonder how serious the "mid tier" guilds are about beating this stuff, and if the preferred alternative is really just to nerf the raids down to their level instead of rising to the challenge.

    Can we be honest though? If you havent beaten the expansion yet, are you really a mid tier guild?
    I would assume the top tier are guilds that beat it in the first couple of months, and then the mid tier are guilds that beat it by summer time, or certainly at least before the next expansion. Lower tier are guilds that cant beat the expansion before the next one goes lives. So lets just call it what it is. If you cant beat T2 Atrebes vault by August, youre not a mid tier guild.
  14. Sissruukk Augur


    First, my Magelo hasn't been updated in over a month, so...yes, I have been making improvements, and continue to do so every day. So, peeking at my old underwear doesn't tell you much about me. Second, my toon has been around for years (birthday June 2000, Tallon Zek), so no, I am not a newbie showing up in this game who decided to heroic it up then complain about not getting phat lewtz. Third, I was away from EQ for about 6 years, just returning this February, so it has been a constant learning experience for me, one that I have enjoyed so far.
    I earn my gear, and yes, I still have some crap augs, but I am in a guild where we work together to get people upgrades to their gear. I'd rather have crap augs doing something than no augs at all until I get them replaced. I don't show up and sit down and let someone else do the killing for me. I jump in there and run my discs/aas and do my part to earn my keep. If I have gone to get a rot, it was a guild announcement, and not gen chat. And that is what we do as a guild, announce rots in guild for other guildies that need to come get. In fact, if we are deep in a dungeon with no CotH, and we have a rot, and someone needs, guildies know that they can come in, die, and I will drag them to the rot and merc rez them so they can get it.

    Where did I ever say that *I* deserve to be among the people that have beaten EOK? Where did I ever come out and say, "Gee, you know what, I pay my money for this game, I should just jump to end content and win!" I am on Vox, and if you have followed anything I have said in the past, you'd know that we haven't even touched EOK yet raidwise...NO GUILD ON VOX HAS. Want to know the biggest thing to go down on Vox so far? Dracoliche in Fear Revisited (yep, I was there for that). So, guess what? We as a server have a way to go before we can even claim to be as elite as other longer, well established servers. So, no, I have no grand illusions of logging in and getting a "You win EQ!" participation prize.

    I asked who are you to determine what I deserve or not. But I never once, again, stated that I feel that anyone...or *I*...deserve anything. A question pointed at people who I have pointed out that have an elitist attitude against people who do not have the ability to commit their time to the game that others do. You kneejerked reacted without seeing my answer, or ignoring my answer, expanding on this. I explained in there:
    You, Maedhros, for some reason decided to take this personally, even though you went to great lengths to explain how you don't treat people like this. You took what I said out of context, you judged me based on old data and no idea on my play schedule. You immediately accuse me of being a mooch because, if there is anything I demand here, is respect. You want to get to know me, then come over to Vox, talk to my guild mates, and get a true picture.
    It is this very kind of personal attack you pulled off that paints yourself as an elitist.
  15. Bamboompow Augur

    Everyone who lives in Mountain or Pacific is a slacker because we won't move back east or take a midnight shift job.
  16. Sheex Augur

    No amount of EQ is worth leaving the best coast for the least coast.

    Also our mid tier guild beat dragon for the first time a couple of weeks ago and Atrebe this week. Thread disproven!
  17. Sindaiann Augur

    Bout time slacker! I'm obviously kidding as I congratulated others the very next day, just not you. Because you are a slacker.

    Again I kid. I just like using slacker in this thread to trigger fools.
  18. yepmetoo Augur

    Again, the progression rates don't lie. Just because YOUR guild is having issues doesn't indicate something significantly wrong with the content. Maybe YOUR guild is just one of the few that will die before the next expansion or at the beginning of the next.

    So take off those rose colored glasses and look at this:

    Relative progression rates, % of guilds that beat the first raid event in an expansion within 365 days of release, who beat the final event within ~210-220 or so days of the release of the expansion (about where we are now).

    A little fudging due to tiered releases, I only looked at RoF t1/t2 (xorbb as the final one), and CotF I basically fudged by counting who beat ToR within 1 month of its release, noted for EoK how many have beaten queen, what some of you are claiming is some unbeatable monstrosity for the mid tier.

    EOK 20/38 213 days in (medium with couple hard raids) 52.6%
    EOK 28/38 215 days in (beat queen) 73.7%

    TBM 24/40 216 days in (easy expansion) 60.0%

    TDS 21/48 208 days in (hard expansion) 43.8%

    CotF 6/57 ToR 1 month after 2a release (hard encounter) 10.6%
    CofF 39/57 Finished t1 within 215 days in 68.4%

    RoF 37/62 218 days (t1/t2) 59.7%

    VoA 16/63 210 days in (hard expansion at end) 25.4%

    HoT 18/70 217 days in (easy expansion) 25.7%

    UF 26/92 214 days in (hard expansion) 28.3%

    What is interesting is that there is probably no real statistical difference in the last 3 expansions. And the number of guilds progressing through everything really isn't changing. What is really changing is guilds are dying, but it isn't many of the top 25 guilds, is almost all the guilds that never beat expansions in one expansion cycle anyway.

    Wonder why those guilds are dying? Look at when group gear started being as good as last expansions raids, making raiding anything but new raids a waste of time.

    So that doesn't even mean anything by itself, other than poorly functioning raid guilds were killed off by group gear as a big number of their members stopped raiding entirely.
    Annastasya likes this.
  19. yepmetoo Augur

    No, it is not. This isn't 2003.Let me repeat something I said earlier:

    YOU DO NOT NEED A SINGLE PIECE OF GEAR FROM THIS EXPANSION TO BEAT EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER IN IT.

    More hp helps on ancient dragon due to doubling up of dots, but even that isn't required if you play well.

    Need to gear up? Go run through group missions for armor drops. Gear done. Now go raid.

    You know how much I raid? In the top guild? 3-4 hours a week, including logging in to get in raid before start, and waiting around for last loot call. That's it.

    Pick 2 raid nights a week, or 1 even. This isn't like it was in UF or VoA where you'd raid 7 days a week to try and keep up/gear up.
    Bigstomp likes this.
  20. Zehn Lorekeeper

    Every single time this subject is talked about it turns into a giant measuring contest! I LOVE IT!

    I'm not going to really address much here, because in the end, it really would only serve to project my own expectations of myself rather than serve as a legitimate guide as to how I got where I am at.

    I don't feel like an elite player. I don't even know if I am an elite player, I don't feel like my guild struts around acting like elite players, and most certainly truly believe that everyone in my guild would whole heartedly fore go elitism over consistent quality play and effort working in concert to make the guild better. In truth, I am most likely not the elite player most people talk about here when commenting about them. I have more flaws than a 3 dollar bill.

    Tweaking an event, putting it on easy mode, or whatever we call it shouldn't be the solution. It has nothing to do with what the top 5 guilds in the race think. It is about not lowering the bar. Once you place into practice a means of making an expectation easier, it will be used, once used it becomes normal, and then used all the time. It's that simple for me. DBG has set the bar at level X. It is my expectation they will leave it there. Will I threaten to hold my breath until I pass out if they choose to lower it, no. I will most likely find a way using parses, other people ideas, and posted information to find away to maximize my production no matter how the event is presented to me.

    I somewhat fell the pain of those people who feel they are trapped on the wall of stagnation. Unfortunately I am willing to concede to the masses I chose my path in EQ and it led me Silent Redemption. I am certainly not the person who will have much empathy for your plight other than " I'm sorry it sucks, but man my squad knocked the outta that event. All I can tell you is keep your chin up, eyes on the prize, and keep on kicking it, and you and yours will get there!" I am at least honest. I don't agree for personal and selfish reasons all surrounding around the fact that I chewed glass, took from raid/group/class leaders, and gave up time I can never get back to get what I have. I take some pride in others pain knowing they are still struggling to get where I am. It isn't the best attitude to have, but at least you know where I stand!

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