Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Febb Augur

    The problem is many casual guilds aren't willing to merge with another guild because they hold onto their guild tag so tightly that they would rather quit the game than to part with it. And some have garnered so much hatred for other guilds on their servers that they won't ally with them in order to clear content together. So they continue to struggle in current content because they can't field the numbers they need in order to progress.
    Maedhros likes this.
  2. CrazyLarth Augur

    What would be a helpfully suggestions of what Raid leadership should be doing in any guild that finds them one day in that situation other then pass the torch.

    Group Prog - AA's , Augs
    Old raids for specific items missing items with power- Twincast Aura 3, Twincast 3 Spell.
    POW - Circle of Power 4 clickys farming
    The Anniv ever year has some nice upgrades AUGs, Clickys ect.
    COTH, Twincast clicky

    Alliances are great but not all servers have that option,
    Open raids, find a core group and lead open raids on older targets your not farming.
    TBM raiding is a great place for power ups
    TBM achievements for the SLOT 3 AUGS (DPS,healing) 1% to 10%
    TBM normal spells are still the best
    TBM Progression Spells that classes can improve self DPS some Group DPS.
  3. Cicelee Augur

    Forgive me, but where in my Skyrim post did I say "get better"?

    Everquest is what it is. There is something for everyone in this game. But there are certain expectations that players have to do if they want certain things. In the case of raids, the developer expectation is to bring 54 players of well rounded classes to defeat the raids. The OP is talking about bringing 30-40 players during the summer months to these raids and bemoaning a lack of success. No offense but that is not a "raid needs tuning" issue, but rather a "raid force needs to add more people" issue.

    Last night I got 150 AC on my artisan prize augment. I want to max it out, but I know that I am not going to put forth all the time and energy it is going to take to complete. So I can either (a) make a thread and bemoan how much effort this artisan prize is and I want it to be changed easier to appease me and others like me, or (b) accept that I may never max it on move onto other fun things both in game and out.

    I chose (b). Maybe the OP and others of his/her kind should also as well. Or they can put forth the effort (like I could) and reap the rewards...
  4. Phrovo1 Augur

    you do realize that many guilds that have beaten the expansion have at least 2 groups of dead weight no? how could 40 good players and some dead weight not beat at least queen this late into the expansion?
  5. Bamboompow Augur

    I enjoy what time there is available to be online in the game, which unfortunately isn't much. As an individual player I just take whatever small victories I can achieve. HOWEVER, I have friends and guildmates that are experience some frustration. I am in no way looking forward to seeing them leave guild or game. It's their decision but their company is a big part of why I still bother to log on.
  6. kizant Augur

    I'm not sure anyone is really against 'tweaks' to make raids a bit easier. I know I'm not. It doesn't matter to me if more people are able to complete raids. It has zero effect on my enjoyment outside of wanting at least a couple challenging raids to alleviate the monotony. But we're kinda past that point now anyway.

    My point has been that each raid is already very beatable and if you're having trouble then something else must be going wrong. Are you really trying to get by with 40 people? The only way that's going to work is if everyone plays perfectly and you'll still need to have the right set of key classes. You're effectively playing the game on hard mode and you need to recruit more people. No small tweak is going to change that.

    Plus there have been people offering advice. It's not like everyone on the forum is doing their best to keep the little guy down. Now, all I know is my class so If any wizard wants a second opinion on what they're doing then PM me logs or spell counts or whatever.
  7. Waldagar Augur

    Why can't we have a raiding system that is tuned for risk versus reward? That way if an elite guild wants a challenge they can turn up the difficulty beyond what it is today and be rewarded with more loot in the chest. If a small guild wants to try a raid event turned all the way down to lowest setting they would be limited to the number of loots in the chest and the types. Here is a quick example:
    LOWEST DIFFICULTY
    1 reward (2) minor spells (1) raid coin each raider
    2 reward (2) Lesser and minor spells (2) raids coins each raider
    3 reward (2) Med, lesser, or minor spells (3) raids coins each raider
    4 reward (2) Greater, Med, lesser, or minor spells (4) raids coin each raider
    5 reward (2) Glowing, Greater, Med, lesser, or minor spells (5) raids coin each raider
    6 reward (1) visible (2) spells (6) raids coin each raider
    7 reward (1) non-visible (1) visible (3) spells (7) raids coin each raider
    8 reward (1) Special (2) non-visible (2) visible (3) spells (10) raids coin each raider = NORMAL DIFFICULTY
    9 reward (2) Special (2) non-visible (2) visible (3) spells (15) raids coin each raider
    10 reward (3) Special (3) non-visible (3) visible (3) spells (20) raids coin each raider
    HIGHEST DIFFICULTY

    Special = Element of Kunark

    This would open up raiding to more people. People that are unable to get the loot or coin they are after with 4-5 pickup group raids will then look to a move to raiding guild. When they have honed their skills they can then move to an elite guild. Mid-tier raiding guilds would have more/better players to draw from. If you want raiding to continue to be a part of EQ and remain healthy, we have to make raiding more accessible and get more people involved in raiding.

    Imagine if high schools banned football. Where would colleges get players? Eventually, the talent pool available to the Pros would drop off in quality and quantity.
  8. Annastasya Augur

    The vast majority of content created for this game is already for the people who can't commit to schedules, who afk frequently, who can't max out their character and spend time and effort memorizing events and learning to improve their character and increasing its contribution to raid success.

    How big a piece of the pie do you want?
  9. savrin Augur

    Raiding has always been something you can either do or can't do. Most guilds that can't raid well have self imposed rules preventing them from being able to. It's usually not the difficultly of raids that prevent mid-tiers from beating them, it is the leaderships rules that prevent them from doing it.
  10. baider Elder




    Actually, most of the opposition here is very adamantly and strongly against small tweaks to make raids a bit easier because they feel the raids are already super easy. The one thing I have asked them to say about 5 times now, and they have refused to answer but instead place blame as to why other guilds cant win the events, is how does it effect them 6 months into an expansion if a raid is made slightly easir and why do they care so much.

    Do one of you please care to answer to me how it is so detrimental to the game and your pride/ego/characters e______ for raids to be made just slightly easier 6 months into an expansion? Or is the answer goign to be the same " well it doesn tneed to be, leadership just needs to be made better and guilds need better strategies." how about you give me an honest, real answer this time please.
  11. Cicelee Augur

    I will try.

    Just because raids now are tweaked and made a bit easier will not automatically allow 30-40 member raid forces to defeat them among the mid tier.

    Having said that, if they want to take 2k damage off of max hit on Queen, or reduce Warcaster AOE damage by 10 percent or what have you, or reduce the AOE damage on Kor Sha by ten percent, that is fine. Won't change the first sentence of this reply...
    Jhenna_BB and kizant like this.
  12. wingz-83 Augur


    Ah but here's the thing. For your artisan prize you still get the benefit even though you didn't finish. Raids aren't like that. Do 75% of a raid and you don't get 75% of the benefit. It's an all or nothing scenario. So to your artisan prize, unless you do it all you get nothing but that's not how it works is it.
  13. Bamboompow Augur

    Sounds like typical adults who are trying to balance this game and everything else to me....when maybe they should just do group content or anything else but the regimented second job that is raiding at times. It always funny when someone says their about to have a child and the first response in guild chat:

    "It was nice playing with yah"

    "Yah, peace out dude! Have fun not sleeping and stuff, lol"

    From a good many people.

    "Oh no I can still raid and play. Yah, everything is gonna be awesome! I can watch the kid and raid" says the clueless fool.

    Usually they disappear soon after and are never seen again. That actually is probably the better solution as many think can keep all the plates spinning on the bamboo sticks AND be worth a crap in this game.

    It doesn't take a kid either. Just having a job, being stuck in traffic, etc. Usual bullcrap that fills up a day and makes people unreliable.

    So these players are not doing all those aforementioned crimes just to chap your butt. Its just life. Mid tier they don't boot you for it. High end, I am guessing they allow you a chance to bow out with dignity...and then you are booted or put on some inactive status where you have to redo recruitment. *shrug*
  14. Seldom Augur

    Waldagar, I agree with most of your post and wouldn't mind if they set up things with those types of settings(have advocated for similar to be done for years). What I don't agree with is your football/pro sports metaphor. The teams that excel in the pros continuously excel because of leadership. Change the conditions and they will still excel regardless. None of it is a coincidence. The servers/guilds that habitually struggle for years and every expansion, even when they have/had full raids with benches, are still going to need to take accountability for their part of the struggling lol. They need to start taking tips from the servers and guilds that are consistently healthy if they desire their circumstances to change. We're in a time where raiding 1-2 days a week and you can clear all content in a couple hours. Plenty of family women/men and career oriented people with time constraints easily pull it off lol
  15. yepmetoo Augur

    This thread is dumb, but it is amusing that the people proclaiming "the end is nigh" loudest are the ones that have basically admitted through their words that their guilds failed and it is somehow the game's fault, and not their own.

    Newsflash:

    Every single raid in TBM was beatable in Arx raid gear (my guild did it in beta many times).

    Every single raid in EoK was beatable in TBM raid gear (my guild did it in beta many times).

    Group gear in EoK is functionally almost the same as TBM raid gear.

    Gear flows like wine in this game now. You also don't need to upgrade augs as the actual difference they provide is not even parsable. Same with progression aa like hero's vitality and such. They really do not make a distinguishable difference.

    Therefore, there are two answers to why a guild can't progress:

    1) Not enough players

    or,

    2) Not enough competent play

    If there aren't enough players to support your guild, that is simply an artifact of the server dynamics involved, and making raids easier won't accomplish anything.

    If the play isn't competent enough, making raids easier MIGHT help force you through for awhile, but it comes down to poor play, poor leadership, or poor strategies.

    So it is what it is. The progression rates don't lie. Nothing has really changed other than 1-2 guilds serverwide dies off (at least in terms of current content raiding) every expansion.

    And let me be frank, as someone in the top guild, I see many of this mid tier "superstars" come and app, and they are awful, and 90% wash out in weeks. Heck, we end up letting them stay much longer than we should, probably because leadership feels bad they server xferred to app, so let them get geared.

    Honestly, it comes down to dps in those mid tier guilds. You have a zerker doing 1/3 of what someone like Behelit does, necros that just use dots from one spell line up, poorly timed adps (my god, the terrible IoG timing or other major adps things from support classes from people coming from the mid gear seems to indicate to me that there is a BIG problem in regard to that), spell casts 1/2 of what top players do, etc. And NONE of that is about knowledge, or even skill (what skill is there in keeping abilities on cool down?), it comes down to attentive play versus laziness.

    Its not healing, as these events can be beaten with 6 priests. Its not tanking, as the tankable stuff is generally very forgiving. It is lack of dps to get through enough of the event until it gets easier.

    Like the key to the first korsha event without any blockers, is getting 2-3 of those mobs dead so you can focus your healing on everyone else tanking. More healing just leads to a slower wipe. More tanking as well. You need enough dps to blow through a couple mobs.

    Honestly, the only thing I would change right now as a bone for lower number/mid tier guilds is the blocker thing. That debuff when everyone has it REALLY hurts dps. We said it when we first did it, that it was going to be a problem for a lot of mid tier guilds. But if you can't beat queen, you have zero chance in korsha 1 anyway.

    Like, how hard is it to have someone kite the captains, and if warcasters are up, kite until they ae, then bring the adds in to kill? Even bring in 1 at a time if that's all you can dps down before they recast. The warcaster ae is timed after all.
  16. yepmetoo Augur

    Oh, and I hope any guild struggling on korsha 1 would at least be smart enough to give blockers to top dps classes before anyone else, and not go based on seniority. Tanks should be the last to get it (ok, maybe bards/chanters), healers 2nd to last. All your dps should get it first. Just one group of dps having blockers shaves a TON of time off.
    Warpeace likes this.
  17. Bamboompow Augur

    Ok. Who trains these people how to improve? I am guessing you all would rather not.
  18. Seldom Augur

    You cannot train people to improve if they don't want to. Plenty of folks in this thread have offered help and already given VERY solid advice. They are the same types who offer it in game FYI. Post parses or say what you're stuck on and I'd be willing to wager plenty of people would openly help if YOU or whoever else approach it as YOU need the help and want it. Gratefulness doesn't hurt also =p
  19. Bamboompow Augur

    The advice on specific encounters is great and raid leaders who read it will appreciate it, but it seems that Yepmetoo has a general grievance with skill levels in general of dps classes he has apping. Amazingly enough, some people do want to improve. Going about it might not be so simple.

    The player community is not what is used to be and many class boards are closed or allowed to go fallow. Even then, some of the more pertinent tips and tricks tend to be not always openly discussed. Fear of nerfs perhaps?

    People who have had continuity playing probably do well for you all, but anyone who has been gone and returned after 2-3 years or whatever might be a bit behind the 8 ball. Also there is probably some apprehension that if they approach anyone considered to be a master at their class about this sort of thing, you might get "Go look it up. You have a computer. Go Google" or "For me to know and you to find out". Those attitudes may have changed, but people are still busy and can't just drop what they are doing to tell someone something that supposedly everyone is already supposed to know.

    That make sense?
  20. yepmetoo Augur

    Most people I know are perfectly happy giving advice on how to play better. The problem will be finding anyone online considering most of us play 3 hours a week then don't log back on until raids again =P

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