Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. kizant Augur

    Sticking with this Renter/Landlord analogy it sounds like this renter has been living above their means for many years. Now, finally, after having maxed out their credit cards and being denied another loan from the bank have decided to try asking for a decrease in rent.
  2. Bamboompow Augur

    Is this information accurate and relevant? If so, than it doesn't matter whose board it lives on. In this case its all there for anyone to read in a convenient package.

    Also, Kizant probably has never lived anywhere like San Jose, Seattle, Austin or any other boom town where you have a small demographic of highly paid, elite tech professionals driving a rampantly inflationary housing market that impacts the entire region.
  3. segap Augur

    Landlords cannot charge what people won't pay. A vacant unit makes no money. What many of those cities have in common is government policies that don't allow for enough development to fully supply the demand. Shortage of housing means rents/home prices go up. It's a management problem of the resources by those that determine what the resources can be used for and set in place the regulations, fees, taxes, etc.

    Back to EQ (these things to correlate to a degree), the dev team makes decisions about resources, balance, regulations and timing of things. Some of the problems expressed here have been set in motion by how the game has been managed. The players do have a role and some responsibility, but we're all at the mercy of what those that manage the game decide to do. It's their city, they set the constraints.
  4. MyShadower Augur

    Freelance has a lot of good information that might surprise a lot of players by DOUBLING their DPS with minimal effort. There is a ton of information in the class threads on here as well although not so easy to locate but if anyone has specific questions and posts, some very knowledgeable people will usually reply with assistance.
    Cicelee and Sancus like this.
  5. baider Elder

    I am still baffled That I have not heard what the top tier guilds are fighting for by not wanting raids or classes to be changed mid expansion so more mid tier guilds can win raids.

    Can one of you PLEASE tell me what you are fighting so adamantly to defend. Just two pages back I posted a long response asking ONE of you to say this and called you guys out saying you are just going to say " you need better leadership, better players, better strategy" and look, here we go 2 pages later of nothing but just that. For FS can you please answer my damn question and not go on another 10 pages about how everyone just needs to be as elite as you or quit the game or enjoy not getting an upgrade for 10 months.
  6. segap Augur

    Since you replied to my post... In a previous post, I mentioned the stupidity of nerfs (valid or not) coinciding with the summer lull. To be fair, I also stated the raids (apart from possibly the aura that blocks crits) are not too hard. I still believe that. There were mid to low tier guilds beating Queen and Vault with 40-45 people prior to summer and the nerfs. The fact that guilds with middling dps compared to the top tier were beating those shorthanded supports that they're not too hard.
  7. baider Elder


    You literally JUST did exactly what I said once again to please not do. You have in no way, shape or form stated one thing that is NEGATIVE to you but instead have just once again like 1000 other posts on here said how it is deficiencies in mid tier guilds. I don't think one fricking person on here is arguing against that, the problem is people are calling for a solution and others are saying there is no need for a solution. The problem I am having is why are the people not wanting a solution, NOT wanting a solution and what harm do the solutions offered bring to them and their game play?

    Now, without bashing mid tier guilds and pointing out your theories for their flaws, can you PLEASE for the love of god either answer my question or say you do not have an answer.
  8. MyShadower Augur

    I have played on and off in some form since 1999. Raided in RoF/TBM/EoK when each was current and just about everything else in various eras on a casual level and raided TBM and EoK in a "top 10" guild. Like you, I just have an opinion I want to express. I would take my "elite" opinion with a mine of salt.

    I have seen the problems in what are considered the lower guilds and the same stuff exists in the "top 10" there just happens to be less of it by design.

    If I get a choice, I will always choose to rise to meet a challenge rather than lower the challenge to my current understanding/skill/etc. If every level 105 in the game was handed full EoK raid gear right now, it would change very little. If the developers go back to the same "lower bar" mindset that made the entire game much easier, I do not think you get the automatic effect of more players in game. Some time ago there were statements that they wanted to make things like aggro and mana matter again. I realize some people call all nerfs bad but, a lot of things they have changed really do make the game more of a game instead of push x, y, z combination and win.
  9. Sancus Augur

    I get that you're really into whatever point it is you're trying to make, but the guides really had nothing to do with whatever it is.

    FWIW (I know, this will be a plot twist), I support tuning raids down some at this point. But in any such discussion, reasonable suggestions/resources for overcoming the challenges that exist currently are appropriate IMO.
  10. segap Augur

    Let's see.... I agreed with you on one point. My agreement segued to the second. I think that the point I agreed on is part of the problem that caused guilds able to beat content earlier this year to now be suffering. I don't agree that the t2 raids should be reduced in difficulty. I think there is sufficient evidence that they were being beat by an expected number of raid forces, even without full rosters. Now, you could argue about re-tuning based on the nerfs. I think they were beatable even with the nerfs. The problem is more of the nerfs driving players to take breaks or quit which exaggerates the impact. t3 is a different story.
  11. Act of Valor Augur

    I hope this thread progresses into RadarX tier and he closes it.
    EnchFWO and Sindaiann like this.
  12. Reynen Journeyman

    Because you're wrong thinking there are so many midtier guilds stuck and there's anything to change to help them. Anything you'll try to do won't be enough to salvage them if they're about to fold, but with your proposed change, you will make it even more tedious and boring to farm for 4 more months for the 20 guilds or so having np killing the content they're given while also not helping the 2 or 3 guilds that struggle. Your idea is pointless to fix what it's intended to fix and detrimental to the others. Simple, no?

    Glad you agree!
  13. Thrillho Augur

    Wow. What a thread. I've tried posting a few times and usually back out, but I think it's time to throw my hat in. Far too many things to respond to, so I'll try to respond to what stood out for me in the past few pages.

    You would guess we would all rather not? Axe to grind? Some have an elitist attitude, not many I've played with. And I'm sure some of us come across as jerks, myself included, but that might just be because we're typing large messages instead of having an actual conversation.

    Any monk that wants to chat is welcome to chat with me. I've had random folks from various servers send me tells and emails, PMs & posts in forums, and even app to my guild. I've sent many an out-of-game email regarding my own burns and strategies, and I've helped improve the DPS of most, if not all, of them. Xegony.Thrillhouse. I'll chat with anyone, even during raid times.

    I know this one is a joke... but it has a bit of truth behind it. I'm a heroic dex chaser. I've been vying for the top slot for a while (and had it for a while). Because of this, I've improved my gear, improved my augs, and I've been working on my artisan's aug. That in turn has improved my DPS. I know a few folks out there have been chasing the same, and a lot (if not all) of them dish out a lot of DPS.

    So even with a full new expansion worth of AAs, gear, spells, and abilities, people are wiping in TBM?Yes, by all means, lets nerf the current expansion for them. There's something wrong here, and I would argue it comes down to strategy / leadership, as others have pointed out.

    Every expansion offers new AAs, gear, spells, abilities, and sometimes levels. Every expansion offers a nerf to the previous one, yet people don't want to go back to the old because it's not as appealing. It's not shiny. It's not new anymore. It doesn't have the same glory, glamour, and prestige anymore. It's no longer a challenge. Which ties into my last point:

    There's a desire to keep the prestige of the raids. There are plenty of reasons why folks who weren't able to beat the TBM raids don't want to go back and try again. They want to beat it while it's current - while there's still a challenge. What's the point in facing a challenge when the challenge has been removed?

    I was in a mid-tier raid force for a while. The feeling you get when you finally get a win is fantastic, especially after weeks or months of grinding it out. Something just clicks and you understand the raid's mechanics and you can do it over and over again. I never got that feeling when a raid was nerfed. I wanted to beat it while the challenge was there. It was the same with plenty of my fellow raiders, and I'm certain there are some out there now who feel the same.

    In terms of killing off the feeders for the top tier guilds - there will always be top tier guilds, until the end of the game. The skill level of those guilds is most likely going to drop (and most likely already has dropped). Highly skilled players are replaced with lower skilled ones who need to be trained. Overall future raids will become easier to accommodate them, as its those guilds who do the testing. It's the game as a whole that is dying, and it's not surprising at all considering it's 18 years old.

    You want to remove a part of the game that makes it fun for the higher tiered guilds. I know plenty that have quit when content got turned into farm, simply because it wasn't enjoyable for them anymore. Some of them return at the next expansion, most don't. You want to accelerate this by making it even easier for the farmers. Yes, some top tier guilds still wipe - could you imagine how boring it would be for us if we didn't have a challenge? If we didn't have to follow the mechanics and just strong-armed ourselves through it?

    There is always going to be a tiered system in terms of skill. For EQ, for WoW, for Mario Bros. Any game you play there will be people who do exceptionally well and people who don't. And there's nothing wrong with that. EQ has been a game about time - it always has been. There's always been a grind to it - levels, AAs, gear, quests. It's not surprising there is a grind for raids. If you can't do a raid, there's nothing wrong with that, and nothing stopping you from returning to that raid later on when you have whatever it is you're lacking - levels, AA, gear, spells, skill.

    Having said all that, there are some things that need to be adjusted / fine tuned on the raids. In particular the warcasters on the Queen. Plenty of folks have talked about it, myself included - there's no reason why they should be able to respawn. I think this is an oversight by the devs and should be addressed. Just as the Queen killing the Captains was fixed made the raid harder, the Captains need to be fixed to not return after that - which would in turn make the raid easier. It's an oversight that's making the raid difficult, and fixing it wouldn't be a nerf.
    Maedhros likes this.
  14. Bamboompow Augur

    There is actually good discussion and information occurring here. The tone may not be friendly, but these types of discussions usually aren't.
  15. Sissruukk Augur

    I keep seeing this term "slacker" tossed around like its candy here. Here are the definitions that I have garnered from reading this thread:

    1. Slacker - someone that shows up but doesn't do their best in raids and expects loots.
    2. Slacker - someone who has other obligations other than EQ, so they are unable to make 100% raid attendance stats, but makes when they are on, shows up for the raids, does their best, gives 110%.

    Now, from what I have seen, everyone agrees that Slacker #1 is generally looked down upon. However, when it comes to Slacker #2, this is where the elitists show up, looking down their noses at them as being somehow less-than-equal because these people have obligations that keep them from living, eating, breathing, sleeping EQ (or any other MMO). These elitists believe that if you aren't dedicating your life to the game, you somehow deserve less reward from the game. Yet, in most cases, these "Slackers" usually perform better, are more dedicated, and show up with there A+ game when it is time to hit the hard content. Most mid-content guilds are made up of these "Slackers", people who guild together based off of time zones, work schedules, etc. They adjust the game to their life, and not their life to the game. Yet, they put as much passion and drive into the game as they would anything else the put their focus on. Should these "Slackers" be penalized? Elitists say yes, because they are slackers for not putting the game #1.
    Shadva Del`Shai likes this.
  16. MyShadower Augur

    What does someone deserve from a raid for showing up and giving 110% yet still does not complete the objectives of said raid?

    In reality, EQ does not require a massive time commitment to accomplish stuff in. If you want all the green checks and max everything each expansion, you are in for project for sure. You are not entitled to anything because you bought the game and show with your best effort.

    It is not elitest to expect others to perform at a certain level. Sometimes your best is really just not enough. That does not mean the expectations should be removed.
  17. baider Elder

    okay seriously, do you have a learning disability? You ONCE AGAIN HAVE NOT SAID ONE thing of how it is negatively effecting anyone, instead AGAIN you have just said AGAIN that people are just playing bad and nothing needs to be changed. I swear to god I dont understand how your reading comprehension is soooooooo bad. Everyone gets it that the top guilds DO NOT think things need to be changed, why would they, they are already farming this stuff. But like I have asked about 10 times now


  18. Cicelee Augur

    There is nothing wrong with tweaking raids such as Queen /Vault/Kor Sha down right now to make it easier for a 54 player raid mid tier guild that is struggling with it.

    There is something wrong with tweaking raids such as Queen/Vault/Kor Sha down right now to make it beatable for a 30-40 player raid mid tier guild that cannot defeat it.

    Many "elite" have no qualms about the former. Many "mid tier" demand the latter without realizing it is not the raid that necessarily needs to be changed, but rather the number of players. That is the crux of the issue IMHO...
  19. baider Elder

    That is all I am saying, I am not saying make it easy mode for everyone to beat. I am also not saying fundamentally change the game to make it like WoW and turn every raid easymode from the get go. But if you look at progression boards you can see a massive stagnation of guilds progressing and a very large portion of high frequency raiding guilds only killing a couple events a week. It doesnt effect the top tier guilds so i understand they just want to fight and bicker and argue because they want to keep their "prestige" of being the "elite" but it is effecting a lot of other players who are becoming very disheartened logging in every week and wiping to events they beat 5 months ago because only 46 people logged on or 52 did but only 3 are clerics, and then when you finally do beat the event 1 time a month , people are dropping 3 months banked dkp on an earring.
  20. dwish Augur

    This is very true. My guild finished somewhere around 12-16 when it comes to finishing EOK, so I definitely wouldn't call us an elite force like the top 5 guilds would be. Yet, we have been able to beat queen and vault with numbers in the low 40s (summer has been rough on us this year), and we have done dragon in tier 3 with 38 people in the instance. Granted, we do all already have blockers, but 38 for dragon is still a pretty darn low number, especially from a guild that isn't full of superstar players.

    The point I'm trying to get at here is the raids are definitely doable without a perfect force. It is frustrating to hit that wall as a raid force, because it doesn't take long for people to start jumping ship. It can happen very quickly. I have seen it personally. I would be in favor of some smallish nerfs to tier 2 and 3 EoK raids, but large-scale sweeping nerfs so all the "mid tier" guilds can beat it I think sets a very bad precedent.
    Cicelee likes this.

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