Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Bamboompow Augur

    Well, there is that finer detail. That and when you are on, you are busy raiding. You smelling what I am stepping in?
  2. Seldom Augur

    Don't need to find anyone online to post/pm parses or say what you're struggling with and take accountability. You smelling that? I put on a mask a long time ago after first couple of endless excuses ;). Continue to keep looking for excuses to fail and whatever else makes you feel better
  3. Bamboompow Augur

    Dude. Back off. Some might actually be trying to go along with your suggestions. If you want people to stop being all hat and no cattle, than drop the condescending attitude. That might be a big reason why people don't ask for help. That they will have to deal with a ration of BS just for inquiring. Its a big part of why this community is broken and it in a state of "Us" and "them".
  4. Piemastaj Augur

    The majority of classes also have boards to go to so you can cut out the middleman to find out why you are under performing. Obviously the best option is to speak with someone directly, but if your too intimidated than the best option is to search the interwebs for information. Most struggles can be solved by simply going to raidloot and figuring out exactly what your abilities do. Then you go and find out what conflicts with their stacking, and do not use some things together or combine them with other things so your not wasting discs.

    Strategy and DPS are 2 huge factors on why guilds fail plain and simple. You are either making the events 10 times harder by not looking through logs to see what is killing you (positioning, AEs, no cures ect), or you might have the winning strat, but your guild does no damage and you simply can not just sit there and heal for 3 hours. A lot of that is ADPS rotations with-in your group. You can't call for full burns and have your Enc hitting IoG 2 minutes in when your casters have no Twincast running.

    As to the mid tier having super-stars. While there are stand-outs, a lot of them just don't hold up when playing with people in the top 10% of their class. It is incredibly easy to look amazing when your playing with people below your skill cap, but when those players choose to move up into a guild with players at or above that skill cap it makes them look incredibly average. As it was said before, you see this happen quite often in my guild. So, while they are suffering somewhat playing with lower skilled players it does not necessarily mean they deserve to be in a top 5 guild because they are over performing in the mid tier.

    Bottom line is, use the thing you play on everyday and research some stuff. Get your players parsing and get those players to consult with people of their class on how they can do better. Calling people out in a constructive way goes very far, and should improve certain aspects of the persons game.
  5. MyShadower Augur

    People are trying to give you what you asked for, advice. Most people that are very familiar with a class are very open to sharing information, not to mention the vast amount of information that is on the internet. Nobody can pour the information into someone's head or make them want to learn more than they already know or think they know.

    Every piece of advice offered you have an excuse for why it does not work. At this point you are just whining about not being able to win EQ without expending effort. It is clear the only real help you want is to have the bar lowered. Why should the developers expend the effort to do that when you have not accepted their challenge?

    Buying a license to the expansion and subscribing entitles you to nothing but the opportunity to play the game. There is no guarantee you will complete any quest, mission, task, achievement, loot any item, etc.
    Phrovo1, Maedhros and Khat_Nip like this.
  6. MyShadower Augur

    Did you not have fun raiding?
  7. Cicelee Augur

    The obvious difference that the high end knows that the mid tier does not know is having an updated Magelo with regards to DPS. The more stats you have, the better your Magelo rankings is, and thus the better your DPS is.

    Obviously...
  8. Seldom Augur

    There is that "finer detail" you spoke of Bamboo. So basically, "you" need help because you're stuck on easy mode content. You then want to dictate how it is people advise and help "you" lol. You're claiming I'm being condescending when you sarcastically called me Master Yoda and attempted to put words in my mouth earlier. You called someone else Dickey. I don't care what you're "trying" to do or any other excuses that floweth over. I don't care if you find how I give advice condescending. All I've seen you "try" to do is convince developers to give your raid participation trophies like it's pee wee league and take no accountability as to why your raid force is perpetually struggling expansion after expansion, year after year. Plenty clearly aren't having the same issues. Many of them have given solid advice all through this thread
    Phrovo1 and Maedhros like this.
  9. Brohg Augur

    My guild was able to defeat all of TDS & TBM in-expansion with a raid census significantly divergent from optimal. As a rule, we're more than a full group short, with ADPS *ahem* "unideally" distributed, and for sure our share of individuals not putting their best foot forward. Through some combination of good strategy, good play, or sometimes, honestly, sheer determination, all encounters could be tackled.

    That's not the case in EOK. With the first win at the Kar`Zok encounter in particular, no completeness of understanding, no sublimity of strategic or tactical execution, no excellence of play or determined deployment of all possible tools can make up for numerical shortness on the roster, or the incredible hobbling of those dps players that can't reliably fire their Alliance (due to either the aforementioned shortness on the roster, or a class imbalance that remains even on a full one)

    And with just that one barrier, 3/8 EoK raids are inaccessible. Lack of progress leads to lost enthusiasm, and sure enough, some weeks 2/5 more raids don't get checked off. My guild hasn't changed much. A couple players get traded out over time. -A necro here, +a mage there, pick up a good bard, lose a good monk, whatever. But instead of racing the other two raid guild on our server vis-a-vis Conqueror and then Vanquisher, now we're a scrub guild?

    The progression rates, don't lie - That's really changed.
  10. Bamboompow Augur

    Yup, there are no warranties written or implied. However most people in the opposite camp of yours are not asking for anything at all, other than for people to give it some thought. You all don't know me from some bum off the street so just cool it on the absolutes and maybe others might not plug top 10% players into the "Elitist Jerk" category so quickly as well.

    You say accept the dev's challenge. Is there anything about them accepting ours as customers?

    Well, when we can't accept their challenge to completion, is it their job to offer a product we at least want to buy? Their job isn't just to offer some challenge, especially for just some narrow target group. They also have to produce something that customer's want and has some demonstrable quality for money paid. If most of the what has become sparse content is not usable by the bulk of players than there is something wrong that needs at least more than a cursory look. That might involve some compromise and that doesn't have to involve just dumbing down raids or lowing the bar. How about doing away with the mid-cycle class ability nerfs that come every year like clock work? Isn't beta testing good for that? Isn't the top 10% a big part of that? Or more content for fellowship level or smaller raid forces. Is that unreasonable?

    Now you can just call it excuses. Busy schedules. Kids. Jobs. Responsibility. Time zones and just boiler plate it all under lack of skill, initiative or poor leadership. A deficit of leadership and player skill are definitely relevant issues. Even then, when mid tier players think they might be getting somewhere, here we have the top guys saying "Um..No. You're not. You still suck. Try again". It is on everyone to take it seriously or not at that point, since past the "constructive criticism" it boils down to what is fun.

    Those who find enjoyment in bettering themselves to max potential will do so. Most players of this game probably won't, however...unless its easy to find information that makes sense. There are SO many more games that are vastly less complicated. Is that EQ's fault or is it the players for not wanting to sort through it all? Has anyone just stopped and looked at their UI and noted how much crap is on it just to make it run? There are aircraft cockpits that are more simply laid out. A shaman needs 32K AA just to max all their skills? Come on, man. Some aspects of this game need some relief. If not the raid difficulty than just the shear complexity of some aspects of it. It demands a lot of time to acquire, understand and then refine these multiple layers of complexity. 30-40 hours a week, some quoted. That's a work week. Hey, I am glad that for some it just comes easy. Its a gift or just dedication, but this is still just a video game.
  11. MyShadower Augur

    You are all over the place. Now the AA, UI, information that does not make sense, the game is too complicated, requires too much time are all in your way? Why do you play?
  12. Bamboompow Augur

    Not everything I post is a direct, personal issue. You ever heard of empathy?

    Why do I play?

    I like the challenge. You can laugh if you want.
  13. baider Elder


    THIS right here is a perfect representation of the actual reality of what is happening in the guilds that are successful at raiding but not in the competition to be server firsts, or, as termed here "mid tier" guilds.

    I see here a lot of people have flat out said it that their top tier guilds are full of players who outshine the top performer of mid tier guilds, so, how are you expecting these events to be so "easy" with low numbers in mid tier guilds if even top tier guilds have wipes here and there or miss a raid here and there some weeks due to "low numbers"? You do realize these are mid tier guilds, no bottom of the rung or leveling or alt guilds. They have ALL completed group content, spent months raiding TBM during the TBM expansion, and have leveled up and geared their alts. The only thing left for them is to upgrade to EoK raid gear. So yes, it sucks they may have bad leadership or some bad players, but what do you see these people who have been sitting and raiding the same three raids every week and missing out on others week in week out, doing? They are going to quit, that's whats going to happen and mid tier guilds are going to fail and crumble and drop to raiding only past expansions and not even really be "raiding" guilds anymore. This may not effect your game play because you are "above them" but it is going to effect a LOT of other peoples game play and it is going to effect DBG's income.
  14. MyShadower Augur

    If it is a numbers problem...why not call for server merges before nerfs to the content?
  15. Bamboompow Augur

    Others on this thread have suggested server mergers. Other have suggested that will solve nothing.

    This whole discussion could be summed up this way:

    Tenant: The rent is too darned high!
    Landlord: Nope. The rent is fine. A bargain actually. You are too lazy and need to make more money or you need to find somewhere else to live that is agreeable to your means. No one is forcing you to live here.
  16. MyShadower Augur

    We are probably reading different threads. It is unlikely the landlord(s) will respond here. These responses are likely other tenants and/or friends/family of tenants.
  17. Sancus Augur

    Not that I believe that lack of available sources of information is actually an issue for mid tier guilds (I think a lack of motivation on behalf of players is more likely the issue), but FWIW here are two more resources to add to the multitude that were already mentioned: Freelance's class forums and Primal blood's (both open raiding guilds).

    I also make house calls ~
    Bamboompow likes this.
  18. Bamboompow Augur

    Tenant: Person A: (player):
    The rent in this city is too darned high!

    Landlord: Person B:(Someone else who is not DGB):

    Nope. The rent is fine. A bargain actually. You are too lazy and need to make more money or you need to find somewhere else to live that is agreeable to your means. No one is forcing you to live here.
  19. wingz-83 Augur

    .............Maybe
    .
  20. baider Elder


    I am not sure if you are really witty in this post and being a ******** or actually oblivious to what you posted. Both of those "open raiding" teams are the epitome of what is happening to mid tier guilds. Go look at their DKP pages. Freelance spends week after week after week wiping to queen in chardok, then going back to TBM for worthless alt loot and some lcea or droga here and there, losing players left and right and mostly just alts staying for alt loot. PB hasn't even done anything in EoK because they are too busy wiping in TBm and think they lost so many players from EoK difficulty they just stopped raiding.

    I know of about three or four other guilds who hosted open raids and had to stop because they could only do lcea, prince and droga and kept wiping fast on queen and lost people and then started losing to lcea and prince and stopped altogether.

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