Mostly curious when raiders will realize the only reason EQ continues to exist is due to the much wider base of casual players. This change affects the game in a much wider way than you seem to grasp. We get it, some of you are in Valhallah, cool story bro, no one cares.
Only those who fought bravely may enter Valhalla when they die and relive epic battle on the day and feast with the gods at night.
They didn't re-tune it because of raid gear, or any gear for that matter, made it trivial. If that's what you think then I'm positive you're missing the whole point of everyone's gripe with it in the first place. Like I've said, gear doesn't make you better. It might make survival better but it doesn't make you a better player. When I had just started raiding and gathering bits of gear here and there I decided I wanted to do the back progression and experience the expansions passed. No one was willing to do these with me and/or at the pace I wanted to do them in. So I had to do it myself for the most part. I did have a lot of help through TDS, which I admit I wouldn't have been able to conquer by myself no matter the gear. Point is, I am a Berserker and rather than not try the things people told me I couldn't do, I tried them and figured out a way to adapt. That's exactly what I did when they said HA's are nerfed. I adapted by saying to myself "this will be a great opportunity to group up with some people now who don't want to box this crap either". I didn't come whining that my game play is completely ruined,and I'm quitting, or I'm cancelling my sub, or post about they are ruining the game for their core casual audience. I just would like to see people adapt to something without crying how unfair it is. I don't understand the remarks some are making about the casual audience being the backbone of this game. When you say casual who exactly are you describing? The players who stay silver and just farm all day either AFK or at the keys? Players who log on one to three times a week? I'm asking because I want to know. I mean even if you're on all day everyday unless you're subbing or buying from the marketplace you aren't keeping anything alive. Money keeps this alive not casual interest and game play. I agree with the above poster about gear not being the issue and this thread has gone off the rails. Previous content should not be on par with current expansion difficulty, it makes no sense. I am glad how ever that people are going to come out of Dead Hills and experience the rest of the game. I think it will do more good for them they realize. Reduce that experience, get out of the same old thing you've been doing for years, and FFS don't let problems like this go for years and then "fix" it. Get it together before the expacs released.
That's like the most amazing thing I've read in this thread. Bring your people to FV with millions of plat. I'll put all the idiots you want into raid gear.
Copied from another forum: I just looked at my bank statement to see what I was spending in the marketplace and it came out to $680 in Dec $425 for 4 expansions $265 for other goodies and Jan up to the patch $275. works out to close to $1k. I Haven't spent a penny since the 17th. wanted to put numbers to what this casual player spends on EQ. If I look further back in my bank statements I'm sure it would be a consistent number. EQ was my favorite thing to do even if it was only 30min to an hour at a time. I assume this is what a casual player spends. One of my guildies had 9 accounts with 5 paid now he pays for 1. I am a casual player and have never had a f2p char. they're just too weak in my mind. I was finally able to 4box all of TDS a couple of months ago without help from a single person. I wont subject people to the many afks i have to take. I am able to group sometimes but for the most part I have to box to get things done. With the new scaling I'm not able to do some of the things I could before. I've had to quit tasks half way through because I didn't have the time to commit to finish. Pretty much everything I was able to do before the patch has either doubled in time to complete or become so hard I cant complete it.
I have a few accounts myself and purchased expacs for them all recently as well, but I do not spend that much in other goodies myself every month. I'm not sure this is helping me make a decision. It never crossed my mind that people who only log on for short bursts are or would spend that much in a 60 day period, but there is the expacs included. Still the money spent on other goodies is a huge factor. You're one post though has made me realize that even though I'm on almost everyday there are people who spend more than I do. Maybe it's the fact I'm trying to focus on silver as casuals and not exploring the avenue that you yourself are taking. This has all just started to suck. I just wish you all were on my server and we could do some stuff. I'm truly like /sadpanda over here.
I think we have gone off the rails a bit and nit-picking the definition of casual. I think what most people really mean is "non-raiders". I call myself casual, but I really mean non-raider. I like to do group content, achievements (old and new). I try to get the best (group) gear I can for my characters. I try to max out my ability to play. But I just don't like modern raids.... stand here, wait for an emote, do a dance over here, press this button, stand over here, nuke now, stop nuking, melee here, switch targets, do another dance, wait for an emote, sing a song, duck, hop... what? bob missed a step, everybody start over.... yes I know I am exaggerating.... but just not fun to me most of the time...
I totally agree about the failure to communicate what "casual" really means. It just appears it means different things to different people including myself. At this point I think we can at least all agree that this scaling issue is a problem for everyone, indirectly or directly. In case my attitude came across sour I just want to make sure my opinion on this is clear: I don't want anyone to leave the game or be unsatisfied while also championing the fact that there is so much more out there to do in EQ. It may not be what people are use to or might not be the easier, more logical path, but there are things out there to provide entertainment within the game. I would hate to see more people leave because this new expansion has made me get out there and meet new people through grouping and so on and I'm really enjoying that aspect right now.
I presume this comment is in reference to Gribbles? What about expansion progression and achievements that are now out of reach for so many? I, among many others, are no longer able to complete past progression due to HA scaling now. Progression, being a prime feature and many character power-ups and having rewards attached to the achievements, is necessary. A requirement, if you will. A requirement no longer viable with HA scaling. I feel like this is what the EQ Devs are telling us: 'Missed progression? You'll have to raid power up or recruit raiders to help you. Oh, and it will take you 2-5 times longer to complete now than it did when the content was current.' #sorrynotsorry
I was meaning Gribbles, yes. Yes, I agree, the achievements through progression are the most valuable part of your in game experience, especially concerning Hero's Rewards. I can't really say more than that other than on my last server I watched many do everything but work towards progression rewards which I couldn't wrap my head around. And you don't have to tell me about the scaling even in raid gear. The DH HA's other than Gribbles were hard enough even still during TBM. I went in there with a Mage the other day to duo some content for him and was like wth. It wasn't impossible for us, we had raid gear and I've done those HA's a hundred times to get collections and Hunters so I knew what to expect, but yeah they hit hard as heck. I still think saying the scaling ruined the game is a stretch just for the fact that we are three expansions ahead of Gribbles now. That is years of time to complete those so I'm not sure how I feel about people saying the progression part is ruined.
At 105, pre-RoS, most of the CotF HA's could be completed by two players with mercs. At 110, post-RoS, most CotF HA's can't be completed by two players with mercs. This is even more true if they are relying on a merc tank or merc healing or both. That is an unreasonable change and needs to be revisited.
True and true. Gear should NOT even be mentioned in this context, but it has been brought up (as it invariably is) and therefore there were remarks on that too. ESPECIALLY since now the HAs, like RoS require a certain gear-level to stand a fighting chance. Again, like with "challenge" most everyone has their own definition of what makes a "casual". For ME there is both a casual raider and a casual grouper - and ther eare "hardcore" players of both types. If a raider only logs on for raids and otherwise expects his guildmates to drag him through, he's casual. He raids, but is still casual - not matter how "well" he performs on raids. A casual grouper is one who doesn't have much playtime and / or infrequent gameplay. it doesn#t matter if silver or gold. But when saying that the groupers are who keep this game afloat then i'd say that's from simple numbers: We have 47guilds listed on the progression site - some of which are not even part of any "race". Even if we take an average of just under 100 "mains" per guild, which would be a lot of surplus given our 54 slots (i know i know, the casuals with low RA, have to account for them too...), that's still just 4500paid (raid)accounts. And now we look at the accounts that are paid and played in the group game (and perhaps some of which work as ALTs in raids), i think it's fairly easy to see where the majority of paid subs are. Some raiders think that just because they hold 2,3,5 or more paid subs that every raider were too - that's simply not the case. For every raider with his account(s) we have a grouper with just as many accounts, and then some. Ok, i have no "proof" of any of what i say here (last released numbers are far too old), but for ME otherwise the game would not be paid for over that many servers, even if overall population has shrunk noticeably. So i go by "it's the groupers" that enable us to keep going - even if it's typically the raiders who preorder first. And yes, that IS the people that log on 2-3 times - or even just one time - a week only. Especially if they hold a sub nonetheless, which many do - many more than you give them credit for, by what you wrote! (just to illustrate: as a grouper i had 5paid accounts - now as a raider i only hold 2, and they're not yearly subs anymore either! - no i don't claim to be representing the norm, just giving an example) No you aren't, when you think a bit more about it. If you happen to have free group slots and are actually taking in random LfG's, then you will pretty quickly judge "what a looser" or somesuch similar. because DPS (and gear) is not up to your par. And in the above, you are also repeating other's mistake of reducing HAs to Dead Hills. The playtime is a big factor, and the availability of groups. On MY server, "casual" guilds have all but disappeared. So guild support for many people - isn't. Neither are guild groups. So many people box, out of necessity - or play with their spouses, children... HAs give a variety of stuff to experience. And for the people i am thinking of, they don't have that many viable alternatives. So if you are lfg for 50% of your playtime or need that long to get going before you get to do something "real"... How long would it take YOU to say "oh, i think i better play something else"? I am glad we agree on that at least!
Well, that is true. But i think we also have to take into account that live server's population is very "mature" (i.e. the max level, many AA character far outnumber the rest). What i observe with regards to Gribbles is that people are dragged in there to help give them a boost and people coming to like it, even perhaps develop a feeling that that kind of XP is "the norm". Then they stick their heads out every once in a while to find their noses bent and bleeding and return to the "safety" of easy and known content. Especially lately, we have had quite a few apps who didn't know about their class - but that was ok for them there, in their setting, with their friends or regular groups. The playtimes and personalities are then what divides that crowd into those that are "stuck" there forever, and those that might eventually make viable apps, even if rejected initially. WE are even more than that "ahead" of Gribbles. But that's not true for everyone. HAs (in general and Gribble's especially) scale down to level quite well, so "scoop up" many a player at an early level (i.e. 75 or 80 now). A group of low-levels is rare, so the norm was a max-level doing them for himself and/or ALTs and filling up slots. This change has, i am sure, significantly lowered the number of HA groups going on in general. So in extension the chances for the "lower" people to find playing opportunities are lower too. Alternatives do exist, but might be out for a number of reasons - one i think most likely is knowledge (got to know your alternatives in the first place to use them). Real "work with young talents" isn't much going on anymore (that's where the loss of casual guilds hurts us all), so new and returning people depend on who they meet and what they're told. All just symptoms, yes. And as you say, something should perhaps been done about it sooner - both by Dev's but first and foremost by players. But it's a situation we find ourselves in - and for some i don't think it's overreacting when they say "i am out of viable alternatives for my playstyle". Especially when the friends they've made are choosing to spend their time elsewhere already. Hmm... As i said, i wiped at "The Doomscale Horde" when i tried it - the last wave invariably got me. I am not saying ALL CotF progression is ruined (and i have done all but Arx in TDS and all of TBM,EoK so not many problems there for ME - except for my ALTs), but i AM saying there's a boatload more issues than what i had before. And i am simply refusing to burden guildmates with 5year old progression. If i cannot do it boxing as i should be able to by now, i am not going to do it, period. I am in full EoK raid gear and we're farming RoS T1, waiting for the flags to enter T2. My ALTs though (especially my other tanks) are "only" in EoK group gear So yeah... When *i* have issues doing progression, then i know that i won't stand a chance with my ALTs. Doesn't "ruined" describe that quite well then?
I never said HA scaling ruined the game. I said it made progression impossible for me. Three expansions ahead, true enough. But I came back last fall after several years away and started doing missed progression. Smack dab in the middle of actually doing TBM progression on my main, they changed HA scaling. I cannot proceed. My friends aren't powerful enough to help. I went in to a mission prior to the change and, while it was a challenge at 105 with three chars and three mercs, I was able to complete it. Then the patch hit. The next mission was like hunting in T2 ROS. My group got obliterated on the first trash mob. A few of my 110 friends joined, and we got destroyed by the trash. You're trying to tell me you're okay with this? Put yourself in my position - One day you're able to complete the "three expansions" ago content, the next day you're getting steamrolled like you're a bug on the windshield. How is that okay? How is that reasonable? I'm not going to wait around forever, hat in hand, hoping some dev takes pity on us casual players. I'm honestly ready to move on to a game where I feel like the money I'm spending counts for something.
Wish they would just cap the scaling to the level of the expansion. Do we really need to keep doing DH HA's at 110? My guild was looking forward to going into Fear and getting dracolich and CT down, but HA scales to 110 so that is not going to happen.
Imo casual means every non-raider, and there are more of them than raiders. This scaling is awful for casuals, but some raiders are hurt by the scaling too, hardcores play with casuals, in a lot of cases pickup groups have a raider or two in them that like doing mundane for the company and personalities of casuals, and even partake for future raid recruitment in rare cases. The truth is, scaling old content hurt everyone
i really cant believe pple this upset about not being able to solo dh. Number one it wasnt meant to be solod, it was meant to be a group mission, so they complaining they cant do something they wernt really meant to do. they also ignoring fact the whole dh thing is what was destroying eq because too many just did dh over and over for months then quit because bored. To keep a player base long term its best pple once more encouraged to group either in scale or in has as that will keep eq interesting long term. people saying they upset because of progression etc is bs, pple werent doing dh over and over for progression.
