Paladin agro

"Keep in mind in 1/4 of the time i did 70% of the total damage you did. WITHOUT 7th/Pureforge or VR[/QUOTE]

There ya go playing monday morning Quarter back again....Nice parse btw...Things to consider such player assignment. In my former guild, we were killing rituals as they spawned. So pulling away to dps ritualists and hopefully proc a blessing (If I get lucky which I didnt), is going to drastically cut into my dps and bring it down. I am sure you were 100 percent of the time on the boss. I was pulling away to clear adds, died twice and still made a decent parse.

So I wont play monday morning quart back and ask you why you were wasting a glyph of lost secrets when that should be used when you're focus is healing. Otherwise, Cataclysm, clearly this was a burn....But I wont monday morning QB because I don't know all the facts.

Now can we get back to the topic of discussion? Paladin aggro. Look the way I see the three classes developing is like this. Warriors and SK's seem to be better positioned for tanking raid content. The reason that is, is because of higher aggro generation. I don't think there is any argument about our ability to gank aggro and hold it for a short period of time. the problem is in our ability to generate enough aggro to keep it. Crush X2, FD, Valliant is what we have for generating aggro, even using marr's salvation it is not enough to make Paladin's viable as a solid raid tank. For the other tank classes to say otherwise is BS. Again, I am not complaining, I am more then satisfied with what we do have. And the role we play in a raid. I would not change it for anything.
But lets not pretend that its even close to being competitive between Warriors / SK's / Paladins in that area.

Wasn't to me, but ill post my line-up and tanking summary for Vim..


/GU Vim in 357s, 156349k @437952sdps --- #13 Linden + pets 2886k@8084sdps (11828dps in 244s) [1.85%]
/GU Tanking summary for: Linden --- Total Melee --- Damage: 8318559 --- Avg hit: 27545 --- Attempts: 412 --- Riposted: 11/412 [2.67%] --- Parried: 8/401 [2%] --- Dodged: 14/393 [3.56%] --- Blocked: 37/379 [9.76%] --- Defended: 70/412 [16.99%] --- Missed: 35/342 [10.23%] --- Hits: 307/412 [74.51%] --- Absorbed: 5/307 [1.63%] --- Real Hits: 302/412 [73.3%]
Linden - 208
--- Ageless Enmity IV - 3
--- Armor of the Inquisitor XXIV - 1
--- Blessed Shield - 1
--- Blessing of Life XVIII - 4
--- Brilliant Vindication Rk. II - 3
--- Burst of Dayspring Rk. III - 7
--- Burst of Sunrise - 5
--- Crush of Povar Rk. II - 6
--- Crush of the Darkened Sea Rk. III - 12
--- Defensive / Evasive disc ended - 1
--- Dichotomic Force - 1
--- Disruptive Persecution VII - 2
--- First Spire of Holiness IV - 1
--- Force of Disruption XV - 20
--- Group Armor of the Inquisitor IV - 1
--- Hand of Piety XXXIV - 1
--- Holy Guardian Heal - 36
--- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XXIII - 25
--- Inquisitor's Judgment XXIII - 1
--- Lay on Hands XXIX - 1
--- Leopard Maw III - 1
--- Lesser Yaulp IV - 3
--- Lion's Roar 1 - 12
--- Lion's Roar 3 - 1
--- Marr's Gift II - 1
--- Projection of Piety III - 1
--- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 2
--- Received DI - 1
--- Shield Flash - 1
--- Shield of the Righteous - 1
--- Slain - 1
--- Splash of Atonement Rk. III - 4
--- Staunch Stance Rk. II - 2
--- Tendon Slice - 31
--- Valiant Deflection Rk. III - 12
--- Wave of Grief Rk. III - 5

Produced by GamParse v1.5.1.7[/

I would like to see a tanking parse for Vim from some paladins, please? Raven, Shifty, care to put them up? I am sure you both can produce a simple tanking parse on either vim or vigor, right? You have tanked them before, right? A 5 minute parse

Offtanking: TBM T3 targets:

/GU High Bokon Boromas in 928s, 1023527k @1102939sdps --- #27 Linden + pets 8542k@9205sdps (10170dps in 840s) [0.83%] (dps is low because I was offtanking add's) Now miss me with the, "Lets help linden become a better paladin", . Because I know none of you have completed TBM T3 raids yet. Let alone the exansion. So yeah, miss me with that crap..please.

Linden - 282
--- Admonish Rk. III - 13
--- Ageless Enmity IV - 2
--- Ardent Fury Strike II - 19
--- Armor of Experience - 1
--- Aurora of Dayspring Rk. III - 3
--- Blessing of Life XVIII - 13
--- Brilliant Vindication Rk. III - 12
--- Burst of Dayspring Rk. III - 7
--- Burst of Sunrise - 4
--- Crush of Povar Rk. II - 8
--- Crush of the Darkened Sea Rk. III - 13
--- Defensive / Evasive disc ended - 1
--- Dichotomic Force - 2
--- Disable Ability - 2
--- Disruptive Persecution VII - 41
--- Elixir of Speed X - 1
--- Enable Ability - 2
--- First Spire of Holiness IV - 1
--- Flames of Redemption - 1
--- Force of Disruption XV - 22
--- Glyph of Lost Secrets - 1
--- Grief Rk. III - 1
--- Group Armor of the Inquisitor IV - 1
--- Hand of Piety XXXIV - 1
--- Holy Guardian Heal - 14
--- Holyforge Disc - 1
--- Impose for Honor Rk. III - 7
--- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XXIII - 26
--- Inquisitor's Judgment XXIII - 2
--- Lay on Hands XXIX - 1
--- Lesser Yaulp IV - 11
--- Marr's Gift II - 1
--- Projection of Piety III - 1
--- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 3
--- Received DI - 1
--- Second Spire of Holiness IV - 1
--- Shield Flash - 1
--- Slain - 2
--- Splash of Atonement Rk. III - 12
--- Tendon Slice - 4
--- Thunder of Karana II - 1
--- Umbrage Strike - 20
--- Valorous Rage IX - 1
--- Vanquish the Fallen II - 4

Let me help you out raven.Group line-up..Lose the crushes first! Go with this:


Brilliant
Valliant
force of darkened sea
force of ardency
ardent force
burst
burst
aurora
consecration
Grief
sorrow
admonish

using crushes, nukes, will drain you're healer much too fast. 2hander instead of 1hander, using crushes and nukes with a 2hander isnt going to work out too well for ya in tbm zones, but it will if you use the stuns. and for those times you get 5 adds, youll have the mana pool reserved and the spells needed to pop disc and handle it.

So you tanked for 357 sec straight ? Were you spamming the 4 aggro stuffs above when they were refreshing ? Because in a 5 min timeframe you could have cast 30 Crush of the Darkened Sea,15 Crush of Povar and like 50 Valiant Deflection. I ignored the 0,5 sec cast time of each, but noneless I think you could have doubled at least the number of Crush you did and x 4 the number of valiant deflection ?
Not sure of FoD recast time, so cannot comment on number of them.
Also if we assume you used Projection of Piety right at start, given it's 5 min refresh with max AA, in 357 sec, you could have cast a second one too ?

So, bit under 6 minutes not 5.

I cut the discs, clicks & procs.

59 spells cast, for ~10/minute, or 1/tick.

And 3 Yaulp. Left that in to observe that you had a max of 1/2 the fight with this freebie self buff on.

Longer duration, 15mins.

82 spells cast. Down to 5.5/minute, barely over 1 per 2ticks

Up to 11 Yaulps, though! That's … well, better.

The point is, you're showing overall fairly low spell volume. With nearly all 0.5sec & under cast times, getting to 2 spells/tick in the context of a raid isn't a wild goal. Not doodling around a DH HA or whatever, but 5 or 15 minutes of intense battling to get the best loot in the game.

In that second battle you've highlighted for us, these wizards with cast times mostly of 1.5-1.9 seconds, squeezed out 210 and 194 spells, respectively.

High Bokon Boromas on 5/14/2016

Wizard main - #
--- Bucolic Gambit Rk. II - 2
--- Claw of the Flameweaver Rk. III - 72
--- Cloudburst Stormstrike Rk. III - 7
--- Dichotomic Fire - 10
--- Ethereal Fuse Rk. III - 24
--- Ethereal Rimeblast Rk. III - 33
--- Ethereal Skyblaze Rk. III - 58
--- Shield of Consequence Rk. III - 2
--- Twincast Rk. III - 2

Wizard alt - #
--- Claw of the Flameweaver Rk. III - 62
--- Cloudburst Stormstrike Rk. II - 2
--- Dichotomic Fire - 3
--- Died.
--- Ethereal Fuse Rk. II - 21
--- Ethereal Rimeblast Rk. III - 13
--- Ethereal Skyblaze Rk. II - 48
--- Narendi's Fire Rk. II - 15
--- Quiescent Harvest Rk. II - 6
--- Shield of Consequence Rk. II - 1
--- Shocking Vortex Rk. II - 20
--- Twincast Rk. III - 3

All four of the good clerics present had more casts of just the spell:Spiritual Remedy than your total.

When your spell volume in an event has the potential to double, your observations about the class' agro generation seem… open to debate.

9sec cooldown, so 6/minute. About half of those went out.

We group and raid with different calibers of players man. The cleric I regularly group with (who was #9 on that parse at 82k btw) doesn't have mana issues and we both focus heavily on DPS over healing in group content. Because we can afford to.

Couple quick things:

1. I was trying to help you, and even said you are a decent player.

2. Everyone has room to grow, this is to help you, and just as much or more, other paladins that are trying to learn and better themselves.

3. You should try some of the suggestions before batting them down, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and some are definitely better than others

4. I have completed all of TBM on my zerker, and tanked up to and including event 1 in t3 on my SK.

5. You are losing a ton of repost dps and spell dps with going with stuns over crushes in group. I would bet that you would make up more dps than a wiz merc on burn going that route and I know you would if you have a somewhat decent healer. You are raid geared, there is no reason you need to use stuns unless solo'ing.

Truth. My standing auto attack tanking dps is like 20-25k. No reason a pally with a higher damage wept and spells should not be at least hitting that mark or exceeding it.

I'm a dorf. I don't grow any taller.

You guys haven't figured it out yet,.that's what it is. Look when you do you will solo.tank/dps without any crushes or nukes.
Linden -vs- Eltun Clawspire: -- DMG: 2670822 -- DPS: 127182 -- Scaled: 92097 -- Slay: 1301039 -- Slash: 1135830 -- DirDmg: 222592 -- Bash: 8175 -- Environmental: 3186 -- % dmg as normal: 62% -- % dmg as critical: 30.6% -- Non-crit rate: 78.3% -- crit rate: 18.5% -- crippling rate: 3.3% -- Attempts: 101 -- Hits: 92 -- Missed: 9 -- Accuracy: 91.1% -- Avg Hit: 29030 -- Max hit: 335451 -- DMG to PC: 245528

/GU Eunice, Well-Wisher in 99s, 12268k @123918sdps --- #1 Linden 12268k@123918sdps (123918dps in 99s) [100%]

-Linden -vs- Commissioner Edrun: -- DMG: 9713045 -- DPS: 119914 -- Scaled: 119914 -- Slash: 8439272 -- DirDmg: 1217183 -- Bash: 36840 -- Environmental: 19750 -- % dmg as normal: 27.6% -- % dmg as critical: 72.4% -- Non-crit rate: 77.5% -- crit rate: 22.5% -- Attempts: 569 -- Hits: 510 -- Missed: 59 -- Accuracy: 89.6% -- Avg Hit: 19045 -- Max hit: 160957 -- DMG to PC: 2250040

-Linden -vs- Vizier Albert: -- DMG: 12134453 -- DPS: 170908 -- Scaled: 170908 -- Slash: 5615249 -- Slay: 5028501 -- DirDmg: 1423086 -- Bash: 52239 -- Environmental: 15378 -- % dmg as normal: 56.5% -- % dmg as critical: 33.5% -- Non-crit rate: 76.1% -- crit rate: 20.3% -- crippling rate: 3.6% -- Attempts: 420 -- Hits: 364 -- Missed: 56 -- Accuracy: 86.7% -- Avg Hit: 33336 -- Max hit: 443832 -- DMG to PC: 1290490
-/GU Glorious Cistina in 84s, 12302k @146450sdps --- #1 Linden 11978k@142592sdps (142592dps in 84s) [97.37%] ---

/GU Render in 52s, 12496k @240300sdps --- #1 Linden 11400k@219236sdps (219236dps in 52s) [91.23%]

/GU Necromaticus Abominatio in 124s, 13962k @112594sdps --- Linden + pets 13962k@112594sdps (112594dps in 124s) [100%] --- A clockwork soother DXCIII 0k@0sdps (0dps in 0s) [0%]

/tell Linden Linden -vs- Necromaticus Abominatio: -- DMG: 13960628 -- DPS: 112586 -- Scaled: 112586 -- Slash: 8319424 -- Slay: 4095620 -- DirDmg: 1441412 -- Bash: 59684 -- Environmental: 44488 -- % dmg as normal: 46.4% -- % dmg as critical: 43.4% -- Non-crit rate: 77.7% -- crit rate: 17.9% -- crippling rate: 4.4% -- Attempts: 690 -- Hits: 564 -- Missed: 126 -- Accuracy: 81.7% -- Avg Hit: 24752 -- Max hit: 542803 -- DMG to PC: 2328345

If I had used nukes, I would have lost dps.....Those line-ups are traditional and standard for most paladins, but they they do the opposite...They are supposed to give you more dps...but the truth is they don't. What they do is make you vulnerable. and you lose dps. Get rid of nukes and crushes. go with stuns and a 2hander, none of the ones posting anything to the contrary is going to post dps parses this high. My parses tell the story...Keep using those nukes and crushes, and ill be doing 3 times the amount of dps that you do
I am always willing to try and learn new things, but unless you can show me differently, I would say, looking at the parses, I am doing something that you should probably look into doing as well. It works better this way

/GU A diseased pusling (24) in 416s, 56576k @135999sdps --- #1 Linden + pets 27237k@65474sdps (65474dps in 416s) [48.14%]
No crushes, no nukes.

So yeah, you let the cleric nuke and the paladin stun, trade you're nukes for their ukes, mu8ch more dps to the group...how long does a mob live more anyway..7-8 seconds? how nukes will you land in that time? 2? for a total of 100k...how much will a cleric do with one nuke? 1mill

I don't understand what point you are trying to prove. Is this solo,molo, or In a group?

From what I can tell you are posting dps parses from soloing named mobs or something. In a thread we are talking about holding aggro better... No one cares if you can drop the kitchen sink in raid gear and kill a named.

/GU A failed attempt in 26s, 2919k @112275sdps --- #1 Linden 2455k@94424sdps (175358dps in 14s) [84.1%] so in 14 seconds how much more damage is that going to make? If you have a healer, they should be nuking, letting you self self, and stun.

You sir are the exception, my zerker is a dwarf too.

I will reiterate what shiftie said, We are not questioning or even concerned with what you are doing solo, this is to try and help in group and raids, where you said many times that you have issue with raid MT'ing and others do not.

But ill also bite on the "if you have a healer" you know healers can now nuke and heal at the same time, so you still should be using crushes because in those 2-3 casts that you didn't, you could have done another 15-20k dps most likely, and thus making everyone's go up.

What happens when that stun freezes the mob and you don't land your riposte double slay?

Also while I know you think your dps is impressive I've got years of data that say you are wrong on how to play a paladin. Stunning is for the weak and underplayed Paladins. You can choose to keep doing it. But you are flat out wrong outside of rare situations.

As for aggro your parses leave A LOT on the table. And it is no secret as to why you feel the way you do about your aggro