What about BUFF Elite content?

Elite content is not supposed to cater to the majority of the player base. If so, then why do we have Event, Normal AND Elite content? The devs wouldn't take their time implementing different categories of content if there wasn't wasnt a particular reason/purpose for it. Especially when the Devs themselves have, on multiple occasions, told us what Elite Content is intended for. Elite content exists for a reason whether some players like it or not, and more than a few think that they should cater properly to THAT category of content so that everyone have a category of content for their acquired taste.

The whole point of this discussion is making Elite content cater more toward the crowd it was intended to cater to, rather than just being an enhanced version of already existing NORMAL content, that we already have of which already caters to the majority of players. Everyone having content up their alley to play is not actually a bad thing.

money.

customers.

I think people have probably misinterpreted that at least in my opinion. That doesn't say they're making "elite the new SM" at all nor does it say "we are going to make elite like SM in its regard to difficulty or mechanics" all it really is is they think about the devs learnings from SM when building elite content, what those learnings are or how they impact their thinking when making elite isn't elaborated at all.

Seems to me like players are subjectively projecting a lot of their own opinion in to that statement made by Mepps and expecting that it means their own personal view of SM is going to be replicated in elite.

I'm sorry but I have to call you out on this mate (and actually I meant to yesterday because it's a part of your position I disagree with), you don't actually have the numbers of players running around with full elite gear on, or the numbers of players even actively playing elite. you act like it's currently being played by the "majority" of the game based on the anecdotal evidence of your perception of LFG.

For all we know it's already only a minority of the game in terms of population numbers playing elite. I mean if you're taking numbers of people forming in LFG as evidence of the population of elite players when are you going to be happy, when you see 1 or 2 forming a day? when you see none and elite runs are set entirely within leagues?

"Anecdotal evidence of your perception of LGH" meaning judging upon the amounts of groups in-game actually running the content rather than bickering about data that none of us can actually take part of? Then yes.

As it stands, Elite's are easy enough for the average player-group to get passed the majority of the bosses in Elites, just because I want that changed doesn't mean I only want 1 or 2 groups forming. I simply want what I've expressed many times over, Elite content with difficulty that backs up the intended purpose of ELITE Content. If not, then what's the point of it when Normal content and normal content-progression already exists?

I mean, it's kind of obvious from the context.

Does it make sense to say,

"Yeah, guys, SM is a no go, because no one played it.

So we're making elite the new SM. And we're going to hope it will be different this time."

Lol.

This is where we disagree fundamentally.

First, I disagree about the purpose of event content. Event contents purpose is not to be "easy mode." If that were the case, free and premium and subscribers would all have access to event and normal.

Event content is designed to allow free players to immerse in the game. It's as simple as that.

Now, on to regular and elite. You claim there is a barely existent difference between the two. Is that really true? Can any casual group walk into elite and complete the entire thing the same as they would normal?

So the real question in consideration is simple, not that elite and normal aren't different, but that YOU PERSONALLY and other players want it to be harder than it is. The question is, do the devs want it to be harder, or it is in the right spot for them? It's easy for people with 160 artifacts and a carefully coordinated league group where all are in chat, and the stats from OP items, and 300+ sp, to complete Elite. So, are those going to be the entry requirements?

Now, you have a right to want harder content, and I hope the devs listen if it's what the majority of elite players want. I just think there should be some transparency on what you're asking for. The new SM. You don't want to run elite to gear up. You want to gear up to run elite.

Haha, no people can't have their cake and eat it too, people assert that position against me all the time, arguing that my positions aren't factual but are opinion based; saying my evidence is anecdotal.

You can't cite anecdotal evidence and then suggest it's factual, you're going based on feels.

"You feel that elite is too easy based on how many people you perceive as completing it and running it, based on personal experience and what you subjectively see in LFG when you're logged in".

Now I'm not saying I subjectively disagree with that assertion, but let's not pretend it's factual.

That's what I keep saying over and over, the developers see how many people are completing this content, they balance content around "how hard" it is for 'the bulk of players' attempting to run the content not how hard it is for the 1%.

I keep saying it over and over as it appears to be a point continually missed. Yes elite should be targeted at the "audience" that it is designed for "elite players". But no one appears to recognise the extent of this audience nor the above sentence I've highlighted above.

If, of the people attempting the content 25% (these are arbitrary figures to present the example) are passing with ease the developers might consider that too easy and adjust accordingly (buff) if only 1% are passing with ease the developers might consider the content too hard and nerf, if 8.6% are passing the developers might consider it ok.

The reality is we don't know that number, we can't know that number, and even if we did know that number the 1% at the top will be unhappy it's too easy and the 7% at the bottom would be upset its always too hard.

It also doesn't matter whether you segment the content into "event", "normal" and "elite" that just creates seperations of people, but the %'s above still remain relevant within the difficulty window discussed.

A truer word could not have been said.

Well isn't it having the cake and eating it too when people also want Elite content accessible to the average majority despite already being catered to within the vast majority of content in a DLC? That's my problem.

Balancing it around completion rates and the bulk of players attempting to run it is the problem since it's just becoming more accessible to the masses rather than catering to the smaller part of the community it's originally intended to cater to. You're acting as if setting a higher difficulty directly forces others out there, but the whole point is to HINDER them and then those players themselves decide whether or not they want to practice and overcome the obstacle in that category of content, or run the category of normal content.

Is it not? Have you run the majority of the Elite content and compared it to normal for yourself? Plenty of people have, plenty of videos are available to check out if you haven't. A good part of the pieces of Elite content we've gotten are way too similar to normal, especially the latest Elite raids in particular. That's also where my point in developing additional mechanics, objectives and elements to the fights in Elite comes in.

You do realize that Elite Content is supposed to be content designed for a "carefully coordinated league group", right? That's the entire point, yet there's currently tons of pug groups forming and spamming the first few bosses all the way to full renown, why? Because they can. Because the content allows them to. It's more similar to the normal content than what was originally intended and that's what I want changed.

I do have a right to want harder content, especially in the ONE category that is supposed to deliver HARDER CONTENT for those who want that. What I don't get is why some people make such a fuzz about it, when there's already two other categories catering to their crowds. Is having 2 additional pieces of content not catering to the masses such a big deal, when already catered to in the vast majority of all of the other content within a DLC? That's my gripe with all of it.

Call me crazy, but I love Elites being exactly where they are right now.

For me, Elites feel like they are actually about mechanics. If you don't block when you're supposed to, then you die. If you don't stand where you're supposed to, you die. If you make an error in the mechanics at all, you probably die.

Yes, these are the same mechanics that are present in the Normals, but in the Normals, these mechanics are often downright optional. "Oh hey, I didn't block Sea Beast's slam. That's okay. I'll still have 30% life left, and then I'll pop a soda and keep going." In Normals, most of these mechanics are looked at as something that is simply intended to be ignored and healed through. And I like that Elites do not provide that option.

Being an "Elite" raid was always intended to be about making those mechanics mandatory, while in Normals people bullheadedly power through and ignore them. You cannot effectively "outlevel" elites, because even in gear substantially higher than the level of the instance, if you mess up a core mechanic, you still get one-shotted. Don't believe me? Queue up and run a random PUG of Elite Blackest Day. Players 250+ are still getting one-shotted by exploding Manhunters. That is the design and purpose of Elites; to make the mechanics mandatory.

What an Elite is NOT intended to be is "just a higher level version". It's not supposed to be something you can out-gear. So it's not about giving the bosses more health, or having them hit harder. It is intended to be able to be completed by people at essentially the same CR; it is intended to have nothing to do with gear and everything to do with flawlessly performing mechanics.

Should an Elite be capable of being 4-man'd? If the Normal can be 4-man'd, then the Elite can be as well. Because they are, by design, supposed to be essentially the same, just one has a large margin for error and the other one requires near perfect execution.

I like the Elites the way they are. And if they were changed to be less execution emphasis and more of just generic "Harder" (which probably just translates to more health, hits harder, and more trash adds), then I would lose all interest in them.

I think we're butting heads because you're assuming the majority of those players are "completing" the elite runs they're forming. In fact if "farming first two bosses" is as systemic as you suggest then they can't possibly be doing so, your entire argument is actually self defeating and you seemingly don't even realise it.

That's the trouble you're not defining "how or why" it's too easy, you're just saying "it's too easy, buff it", because I say so.

Again you've said "becoming more accessible to the masses" based on what evidence, must I remind you, that, you don't have any? You have anecdotal feelings.

If it is different than normal, then it is different than normal, if it is technically harder than normal, then it is technically harder than normal. Subjective difficulty doesn't change those facts. Whether we believe the mechanics aren't sufficient or difficult enough doesn't change those facts.

I don't disagree with this aspect, the last few raids have been a bit too similar in terms of the mechanics, but throughout the course of Elite there really hasn't been that many more mechanics, perhaps one or two additional ones over normal.

Any suggestions? It's one thing to say "develop more mechanics" it's another to put forth suggestions, especially when you're the one purporting them to be lacking.

See you've let your hand out here a little "carefully coordinated league group", your words right here and I asked the question earlier, when would you be happy" clearly indicate that you see elite as being league only, PUGS and LFG be damned, league exclusive is it.. You see I actually don't think you'll be happy until elite is so hard LFG forming is complete absent, dare I say it you're moving a little closer to that "eltist stereotype" here.

Again you don't know how many of those runs are finishing, you also don't know how many of those people are just attempting last boss and then failing because it's too hard. You're assuming they're just "farming the first two bosses", tell me, is there a difference between making a genuine attempt to finish and just farming first two bosses?

Here's the cruncher too, are you alleging that those groups aren't "worthy of beating those first two bosses, despite the fact they've clearly done so", how or why is them beating those bosses any different from you beating those bosses? was the task you undertook to do so any way superior? it seems to me that you want to make those first two bosses way more difficult in order to gate more people from the elite content entirely that you find subjectively unworthy, you don't think that doesn't err a little on the side of stereotypical elitism?

The other question I'd ask too is "WHY do you care about other people with elite gear? Does this somehow affect you? or is it just an inferiority/superiority complex where you desire to be better than these perceived LFG scrubs you assert are unworthy?

You have a right to want harder content, but you also have to recognize that your "idea of what is harder" is subjective.

I am running elite just for one single reason, feats & renown... once done cya maybe again if ask to help.

Now I think you are just completely trying to undermine my point completely, just to undermine it. Because I have on multiple occasions throughout our discussion explained WHY they should buff it, in what aspect as compared to that silly and highly misinformative statement above claiming I have only said "it's too easy, buff it, because I say so."

You can keep calling it emotion/feelings rather than facts all day long, but I am talking from actual, in-game perspective in what we can actually see and experience vs. "facts" that you, Shark, me nor anyone else but the devs have access to, and you're using that data as a point in the argument, of which you, Shark or me know NOTHING about. So arguing with that data is no more "correct" than me arguing based on in-game experiences from part of the community we can actually see and interact with.

Not sure if you really know what you are talking about yourself, there, on that greenlighted part. What facts? What's different?
Fact is, a lot things are NOT technically different in Elite content, not to the point of which I was trying to explain in where most of the mechanics are too similar and in need of different ones to truly separate and differentiate normal content from Elite content.

As for a "carefully coordinated league group", you're reading way too much into that to the point where you're twisting it around rather than aknowledging what's being said. Elite content should be all about being carefully coordinated, with communication and teamwork on point in ways that necessarily won't ruin your run in average normal content, but will do so in Elite content. That's what it should push for, why shouldn't it? That's not me saying pugs and LFG shouldn't be forming for runs, that's me saying just how important those things should be in Elite Content.

I am not assuming anything, I am speaking from an actual in-game perspective in where the first two weeks of not only this episode but also previous ones, have had LFG filled with request and groups forming for this very purpose of farming. If that's not a form of evidence then I don't know, maybe I should start screenshotting more often to be worthy of your trust?

You can't tell me this phenomenon doesn't exist because you know it does, and it undermines to whole point of what is supposed to be challenging content when the majority of the average players can just farm the first few bosses, pay to reset and repeat this all the way to full Elite gear.

No wonder Shark is liking your post, you're almost starting to twist words and statements around worse than him now. Please don't go that route, your previous posts in our discussion had such a nice, constructive and on-point touch to them.

LMAO

I'm not asking you "why" they should buff it, I'm asking you "how they should buff it, what they should buff and then why they should buff the item in question to make it harder, doing so would make others understand why the item in question is too easy, understand the extent to which you want to buff it, why you want too and what the end product of your buffing would be.

No I'm telling you that anecdoatal evidence and experience in the game is personal, limited in scope and cannot be extrapolated to replace the actual data. I have pointed out to you that the developers have the "REAL" data, no one here does, so it actually at the end of the day doesn't matter what any of us subjectively think about difficulty because if the developers see 70% of people attempting elite content are struggling they're going to think it's difficult enough. The reason for this is because despite the fact you assert "there is normal" content for them, that is true but also not the point at the same time.

"Elite content" is open to everyone to attempt, not just 25%, 10% or 1% of the community. You therefore base your perception of difficulty against those attempted runs, ascertain how many are completed, not completed, in what time frame etc and use these real facts to determine the difficulty. Someone is always going to find it too easy and too hard.

The developers have this real data but it seems some people just don't want to accept the fact that the elite content is being balanced around this data at the developers discretion not our own. The developers don't need our feedback to ascertain this.

Said I agreed mechanics should be different, didn't I?

You used the word league, perhaps you shouldn't have? I don't disagree with the assertion elite runs should necessitate communication, of course they should.

It's still a selective sample size that cannot be extrapolated to imply a bigger picture that cannot be proven. Again you don't know whether they're farming first two bosses unless they say that's what they're doing, again I ask is there a difference between "farming first two bosses and giving up" and "attempting the elite run and finding it hard, someone then bailing and the group falling apart, happens a lot, especially in LFG groups".

It's also not a new phenomenon it has been present since Blackest Day Elite, were you complaining then? The reality is, unless they make "every boss" difficult to the point of your subjective difficulty level there are always going to be some players capable of beating some bosses and not others. You're always going to end up with players doing this. I have to wonder too why does it matter to you really? Those players are clearly not finishing the raid, which actually signals to the developers the difficulty of the last boss is sitting somewhere about right, you realise that's how they'll be interpreting the data right? Now I'm not saying I agree with where the level of difficulty is currently set subjectively but that doesn't mean I don't understand the concept nor does it mean I believe I have a right to subjectively decide where it should sit.

I'm not actually trying to twist your words more than I am trying to understand where you're coming from while trying to exclaim my point

About The Throne (Elite):
-First Boss : You can ignore Sea Beast slam attack with a shield sc without blocking,you can also ignore Corum Rath's Purple Balls by using a shield sc,same with brine swarmers,and the same with the floor aoe.
-Last Boss : Level up corals so that you dont have to roll away from the Red Line(no special skill there),shield sc on Corum's skull attack,shield sc on Barniculous,shield sc on brine hatchlings or just walk away or just dont be afk when this happens.

About Crown of Thorns (Elite):
-First Boss : King Shark's skull attack is lungable,you can also level up your artifact again,for all his other abilities like whirlpool use shield sc.
-Second Boss : yea...
-Last Boss : Ignore War Magus,Coralmancer's,Aquamancer's skulls with shield sc,use shield sc on Murk's charges too or walk away,tank doesnt have to block to Murk's skull attack since it only leaves you at 5% health and you just rely on the healer or use a soder.

Of course I dont want elite raids only to be hard based on damage,because then we wouldnt be able to choose between a variety of powers and it would feel like higher rounds on sm.

The problem is that they havent adjusted the elite raids based on the stats and the advantages we gain from artifacts.
By that I mean elite raids havent progressed while,apart from gear, extra stats & abilities are getting upgraded.
Either that or instead,adjust artifacts to match the elite difficulty.

Let's try and keep this constructive please.

Don't want to get the thread locked.

Most of the reponses have been constructive, including mostly everything but the one sentence you chose to respond to now. So was my previous response to you on which you let somebody else reply to. So please, yes, keep it constructive.