I don't understand this response. You didn't say what power/role you are, what you fought against, or if you had seen a 2face in legends. I also don't understand what you mean by being aware of your surroundings when the main 1v1 maps are lair battles (confined area), batcave, and shadowlands which are node based with no environmental elements unless you want to bring health barrels or the adds you 1shot unless you're in legends. What mobility requirements are you referring to?
Not standing in/eating bs, avoiding attacks that can be avoided, etc. Same stuff we used to do just feels like it's a more critical factor now. I'm fire and pvp in DPS. Have fought the gamut of so-called cheese powers. Yes, I've faced good Twoface players in legends, though I mostly stick to Arena atm since I still need marks.
Those aren't surroundings since they're immediately on, not around you when they're cast. So you've been a fire dps and beat a good atomic tank who did nothing but combo on the node in batcave but blocked your wm combos if you're prec? a mental troll who had 5 shield loadouts with stealth attack? a gadgets who had 3-4 mine's waiting on the node to chunk 30%+ of your health as soon as you return? You also said that you stick to arenas since you still need marks. Given that legends gives the same amount of marks, is almost an admission that you weren't getting wins in legends, but were in arenas, or not as many wins. Is the appearance of two-face in those legends matches a cause of that occurence? If you were beating two-face's, what legends character did you play?
And? Get out of them. You can totally mitigate a lot of stuff by moving a few feet. Based on a few hundred recent matches, it doesn't seem like anyone realizes which moves they should simply get out of. Yep. Important to note: Everything you've described still costs power, nodes don't cap when contested, and if you're eating a ton of mines it means they already beat you without prepping mines. The best players I've faced haven't even been doing the "cheese" stuff. Jesus... I'm mostly in arenas because it's what's popping more.. I play every legends characters and mix it up on a whim... Two-Face is cool and all but it seems like a lot of people kinda just let him sit in a corner by himself and get away with doing ********.
I appreciate your attempt here to sound like you know what you are talking about with a reference to "natural soft counters" as that means absolutely nothing as 4 dps against 4 dps are "natural soft counters" to each other as there are no roles to worry about counters. Random queing with RPS actually had players que as their support roles or have the ability to switch once they saw the group makeup in the spawn point. Also if you were a tank class it was more than likely you could run into an apposing controller in a random que thus not only could have the confidence role bonus in addition to continually taking away that controllers pot. Vice versa applies to controllers as well if you are a controller powerset in a random que its a very high likelihood you'll find a healer on the other side, a controller stance player can do way more damage to a healer than the same player could do in dps stance. I said most duels "of a competitive" nature where all in dps stance which they were at fight club on the PS side or in the WT and you faced just a much ridicule from players for duelling in a support role as you did back then as you do now. Well you are free to upload your 1v1 lair battles as a fire dps in dps stance against an atomic in tank stance to show us how non-bs it is. You are welcome to upload your 1v1s against a mental controller just using Psychic Shock and having 5 shields on their loadout and show us how simple it is. And your last quote to me can be directly applied to what you said here. Were you the one just standing in a orbital strike in pvp letting it hit you? were you the one just standing around while they dropped a supply and had a 50% dmg increase and "face tank it"? Sure you ran into users like that in pvp but to tie the utility belt directly to the home turf trinkets as your only example is pretty funny considering the utility belt came out during hand of fate which was 5 months before the home turf trinkets were even released. I base my assumptions on my hesitance to find any of your opinions having any actual merit, go find me others that apparently hate the RPS as much as you do, I am sorry you had some a terrible experience with RPS in the past, I don't know more assumptions by me but obviously something happened. So you say you weren't trying to be disrespectful but you literally started your post with the fact that everyone before you was "hella off base" it would seem to everyone else in the pvp community your comments would be the outlier, no one ever had a problem with the RPS system, nor did anyone ask for it to be taken away. The RPS system became terrible when Spytle introduced the movement mode debuffs that were eventually dissolved because they actually were terrible. Just having all your PvP feats in the past means absolutely NOTHING to this feedback or opinion, that's like saying I am really good at elite raids because I have full elite renown???? Go to any thread in this legends forum and see the feedback left and you'll find something in common, none of the feedback is remotely similar to yours
Mental controllers have pot which significantly mitigates costs, atomic combos have reduced power cost in tank stance and with a superpowered spec properly, they cost barely anything. Mines cost power but they're prepped which means out of combat regen is active. And saying that they beat you without prepping mines isn't a good response because I could be at 35% health and they get a spawn timer of 3s and come back 100% health to my 35% and I'm stuck fighting off mines now until I can kill him. And that statement is contradictory to what I've seen from the community when everyone who is talked about is good complains about losing to the cheese that you're saying they're better than. And that statement confirms that you haven't fought a good two-face yet. A good two-face isn't in the back in a corner. They're in the front clipping 5tap with the backflip. Sitting in the back was pre-revamp cheese.
Iunno what to tell you man. This isn't the insurmountable advantage you seem to think it is. You've obviously got your mind made up and you're making a lot of assumptions about how I/others play so there's really no point in this. If your go to is "this person who disagress with me can't be as good/experienced as I am," just don't even bother.
Well, I have an atomic tank that I've been undefeated on for over a year in queue's and scrims outside of the power glitch in arenas so I would of course question you questioning the insurmountable advantage. I would be curious to see how your dps does compared to the 100+ that failed and the 100+ that immediately left queue or didn't even send scrimmage.
No.... that isn't at all what a soft counter is. It's because of stupid stuff like this, combined with your arrogance, that a lot of people can't take you seriously. Then your entire argument is that my point was moot because people in duels, which are essentially pre-arranged 1v1 scrims, dueled in DPS... while at the same time arguing that RPS was great in 1v1 anyways. That's some olympic level mental gymnastics given the two are totally unrelated. Attempting to use duels in defense of the entire system is meaningless. "It's totally cool that a dice roll determined if someone got a buff in 1v1 because in non-random duels people would go DPS" isn't an argument. Eh... iunno. With how low some (>.>) uploaders have set the bar on DCUO videos I'd rather just play the game and let the people deadset on Q_Qing in the PVP section continue to Q_Q in the PVP section. I didn't come here to epeen, I came to say that after months of avoiding PVP because of the ******** people post in here, I feel confident after several hundred matches (including tons against the alleged cheese) that PVP is in generally good shape. From what I can tell, the biggest problem with PVP is the forum's PVP section. Some things never change... That's not a defense of your point or an indictment of mine. That's empty rhetoric. There's a good reason the utility belt, as well as outside trinkets/pets/mods/etc were removed. Oh... gee.. iunno... Where can I find an example. It was clearly so beloved and good! That must be why it's still in the game... oh wait. RPS was arbitrary and made matchmaking QC far more random. There's no strategy to going a role and rolling the dice as to what kinda of RPS advantage/disadvantage you'd get. The only defense you've made for it only applies to pre-planned scrims... which... cool... great. Terrible idea when taking 4-16 people at random. Yes, Chill... because "hella off base" is clearly on the same level as you making a bunch of air-headed assumptions about me and my skill/knowledge/experience level and being a chode in general. Coulda been a perfectly normal conversation but you went full troll immediately. Citation needed on your other baseless claims there. Can't say I ever spoke to someone in game who was like "oh man!I just love arbitrary class buffs that may or may not work in my favour! It's so much better than a more level playing field with nuanced counter mechanics!" I get it... you liked RPS so you think everyone liked RPS. They didn't. I'm not sitting here saying "everyone hated RPS." I didn't like it. Lots of others didn't like it. It was, from a design perspective, a weak and contrived mechanic. Cool?
Do you draw much? There's a few peeps I bump into where it's just a stalemate. It's annoying but seems appropriate to me. Also unavoidable if two evenly matched self-healing capable powers get matched, since at a comparable level it's just a never-ending slugfest. Usually we either just take it chill when we match after the first time or re-queue. A complaint I do have with PVP is that I don't feel like I need to open myself up to be countered nearly enough compared to how it used to be, and vice versa. That used to help break these sorts of showdowns where now it's kinda just 5min of whacking followed by both ppl stopping, thumbs up/bowing, and either chilling or taking turns bowing out to save time.
Only in lairs I draw. Normally one person is late to a node or a gets a capture by character placement error so whoever gets that first lead by whatever means is who wins. I just 965-0'd a rage tank in shadowlands because i knocked him far enough off the node between thermo and rifle to get a capture after like 5 minutes of fighting total.
Yeh same. Tbh that's why I don't really enjoy node 1v1. I'd love it if both players just started on the node (but still had to run back on re-spawn to avoid spawn cheese) because I do like the sumo wrestling, knock-him-off-the-node aspect but I hate the lol-i-got-here-first aspect.
Cool? Once again the reading comprehension is disastrous, you were the one attempting to use RPS and 1v1s as apart of your underlying argument for saying it was terrible. If you actually what to use the dice roll example it would be using the pvp weapons that gave a chance to penetrate toughness that were inconsistent so it was a actual dice roll if you'd do the increased damage it was supposed to do against a player. Using RPS in a 1v1 was about overcoming disadvantages and if you didn't want to worry about any disadvantages than you just stuck to dps stance only or if they still refused to switch stances there were the pvp consumables to level the fight. Yea you are right some things never change, there are always players that are blind to the overall picture you want to take a sample of pvp when the community is it its smallest and most pvp concentric players and leagues have moved on to other games to do your "several hundred matches" Why don't you enter that tournament of Popa Kola's then based on your several hundred matches of practice? Yea it was their attempt to dumb down and make everything the same just like having 1 set of gear, removing influence consumables and on the pve side removing jump cancelling, removing consumable clipping, removing weapon modifiers Yea cause its so unrealistic to have players form groups or be in leagues or have friends or use chats to play together and form a proper balanced group. I just feel that you think its arbitrary because you were able to handle the RPS mechanics. It would be too much for you to handle that a tank could strip a controllers own POT and that controller would have to know in his head after the 25 seconds has expired or communicate with the group in order to know when to pot again to avoid wasting needless power to repot to have it stripped again. Lets not forget the tank who would have to routinely either be on the controller to keep the pot stripped or to tab between targets to make sure he keeps pot off the troll. Much too hard of concepts to grasp i'm sure. I can easily form those opinions because your have completely evaded any actual debate as to why the RPS system was flawed. "weak, contrived, terrible, arbitrary, garbage, unnecessary, nightmare these are the words you have used to describe the RPS system, I am so happy that you found your thesaurus, however none of what you have said about the RPS system is indicative to an actual argument against it. All you've said against it was that it lowered que time, there were lots of factors that went into lower que time: ranking system, separate map ques, no system to allow us to see how many players are queing each playlist, most non premade groups not queing anything higher than 4v4, premade scrims, feat hunters, groups trying to sync ques. The argument that RPS made wait times longer cause players were scared to que because they were only a dps and wouldn't have a support role in the group is completely laughable. like I said really difficult concepts to grasp here
It actually isn't. Failing to understand what soft counters are, how they work, why they're important, and why we now have a better, more nuanced, faux "RPS" that doesn't rely on arbitrary buffs is utterly disqualifying to any PVP conversation. We aren't going back to RPS. While I'm sure whoever designed it in the first place is flattered by your defending it this hard, it's dead. It's not coming back. Contrary to your lies, people complained about it for the same exact reasons I've brought up. You can take the rose-tinted glasses off now. Or... yknow.. it could just be a blanket, level playing field with subtle soft counters, like it is now, so people can play w/e roll they damn well please w/o risking having an unnecessary advantage or disadvantage for doing so. But yeah... nah... the old way of people getting randomly/arbitrarily rewarded or punished by matchmaking for playing the way they wanted to made so much more sense, clearly. Hence why all great fighting games have a rock-paper-scissors system where certain characters get buffed against certain other characters! Except that's obviously not a thing because it's ******* asinine, hackneyed game design, hence why it's gone. Your posts/videos generally have that impact on the community, yes. Citation needed? Clearly we've got Schrodinger's PVP community up in here... simultaneously at its smallest yet somehow pops matches constantly, even in stuff that rarely, if ever, popped when it was in its supposed prime. You'd make more logical arguments if you'd tuck your lolepeen away. Side note: The term you're looking for is "PVP-centric." If you're gonna throw stones about reading comprehension, at least get your **** sorted. Uhh... yeah... That's correct. I was able to handle them. Everyone was. They weren't complicated. Stop making it sound like rock-paper-scissors is somehow 4D chess. Now... take a deep breath and think for a minute. Even if you teamed up, if you weren't scrimming against another group, what control did you have over what matchmaking gave you? Your "proper balanced group" could still be hard-countered by a different, just as "properly balanced" group with differing RPS priorities. Given two equally skilled/spec'd teams, RPS determines the outcome... because that's how RPS works when everything else is equal. The smaller the team size, the more pronounced and frequent the issue. Compare that to now, where this straight up can't happen in any way that can't be overcome without the advantaged player(s) being markedly worse skilled/spec'd than the soft-counter underdog(s). Stop arguing that "b-b-but you could could be way better and feel good about beating them in the old RPS system!" That's not an argument. If two equally skilled/spec'd players/teams can face off against each other, in any game, and the outcome can be determined by arbitrary buffs, it's not a good thing. It's even less strategic than actual rock-paper-scissors, where there's a human component. In DCUO it was just "we pick rock" and matchmaking decided whether you get rocked, papered, or scissored. The argument is and has been that arbitrary, hard counter player buffs/debuffs dependent on matchmaking RNG are bad game design. It's why it had to be changed here. It's why fighters don't use anything remotely like it. It was lazy. Your counter argument that it was good because it meant sometimes you'd win when you were at a disadvantage is idiotic because that just means the one player/team was heavily outclassed by their opponent. If you want to, you can just spec yourself to be at a disadvantage now. Your counter-argument that it allowed for more strategy is idiotic because the same fundamental concept of role counters still exists, but in an appropriately nuanced and properly balanced way, like it does in more serious fighting games. All they did was take the hard counter and make it a soft counter. Trolls still have advantages against healers. Tanks still have advantages against trolls. Healers still have advantages against tanks. It's just subtler, like it would be in any good competitive game. I never said that queues were popping faster because RPS is gone... I said PVP's popping a hell of a lot better now, and feels overall much healthier than it did when it was in its supposed prime. The general point that RPS was a weak, archaic system was separate. Reading this thread, I had the impression PVP was a wasteland of cheesers... so imagine my surprise when I find it to not only be alive and kicking but far less cheesy than advertised. The absolute worse thing going for PVP right now is the forums. This PVP section reads like people are going out of their way to dissuade others from PVPing, they speak so lowly of it.
The only players that complained about RPS were the very roles saying it was unfair to that much of a disadvantage against the counter role which was the whole point to the RPS. What you glaringly and honestly I think its a complete joke of you to leave out is that RPS system was at the bottom of the list of issues with PvP where other issues like immunity, stat scaling and clamping etc. I could go through any random thread talking about the past RPS and find exactly what I said above, the support roles complaining about RPS and everyone else saying it was fine and should be brought back Here's one from 2016 https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dc...rock-paper-scissors-arena-pvp-balance.277802/ Blanket level playing field with subtle soft counters? yea ok I don't think you could be even more off base its comical. Yea blanket level playing field with 1v1's all consisting of basically 4 shields on a loadout unless your power has self healing moves then its mixed in with the shields, blanket level playing field with spam movement mode powers like superspeed's vortex trap, weapon mastery combos that favor single target damage much more than others like ma>uppercut, unblockable weapon combos like rifle 5-tap, unbalanced form changes like nature dog. I really seem to think you didn't actually face one real pvper in your entire several hundred matches of practice and they were just all pver's just trying to have some fun and or gear up. If you want to take that argument that pvp is alive and thriving in DCUO just because you get alot of que pops go for it, that is a argument that holds as much merit as your other ones so it is pretty much par for the course for you Side note: you can critic my spelling and grammar all you want doesn't change the fact that the reading comprehension level is that of a schoolboy RPS didn't always dictate the outcome, there were plenty of groups of equally skilled players that wouldn't run with a tank despite the clear advantage of having debuffs cleansed and the power implications on the other group because the damage penalty of the tanks were great enough that the role could be ignored and you could run 2 healers because both healers could not be consistently debuffed which would allow for the non-debuffed healer to cover the slack if the other heal was focused fired. You could also do what many PC groups did and take 2 controllers with one controller being spec'd for damage and the focus fire target would always be one of the healers so that both healers could remain debuffed, in addition to having the increased damage from the damage controller to deal with. I really don't ever expect you to understand that type of playstyle or group synergy in competitive pvp at all. In my FNL competitive series against iCarry both teams had solo healers and we went with 2 power trolls instead of one being spec'd for damage and the only setup that iCarry was successful in killing us was when they had 3 tanks to counter our 2 troll setup. Why wouldn't they just run with 3 dps? that is what im sure a player like you is thinking cause im sure 3 dps of course could do more damage to a player than 3 support roles? There is no concept of role counters in this game lol, before you didn't see players in tank stance dominating duels like you do now because they actually had a damage penalty because of the benefits of their role. They had the highest toughness gear, they had the dom/resto, they had the abilities that were stronger in tank stance shield and self healing wise so they got a damage penalty to counteract those role buffs. Now that is completely gone, atomic tanks and fire tanks can just sit there and heal back all the damage you even try to deal with them to the point where atomic tanks barely even have to block a ma>uppercut combo as 1 proton remedy can heal back whatever damage it does when you can easily have a resto and precision spec. Healers could spam as much of their abilities in the past as they can now but with their severe damage penalty it took a healers skill to outlast their opponent without running out of power first, expect for the case of sorcery healers which were very power conservative. Now in current pvp players have to do weapon only duels or iconic only scrims just to try and get some balance and even then you can't do weapon only now because of the multiple weapon imbalances. Compare Duels to the past to now: the past 1 shield in reflect pain which back then wasn't even considered a true shield because you still took damage, the rest of the loadout is all damaging powers, a fluid mix of powers, counters, weapons. now: troll stance, 4-5 shields, spamming 100 power cost moves in psy shock and ambush sleep yes it truly is a blanket level playing field certainly, once again completely and utterly laughable. LOL it's because the wasteland of cheesers aren't even playing duco anymore, 5v5 chat is completely dead and is just players bickering with mattsuper. You would have to go back almost 2 years in this game to find an actually active time in PvP. there aren't even any players left from any of those leagues still around today. Night Fall is gone, OPT is gone, HoB is gone, UE is gone, 300 is gone, CMK is gone, Milestones is gone even active leagues like NigthtFall where all they would do was PvP haven't been active in a year. PvP ques are a sea of mediocrity of players who can actually try to pvp because they will meet the same type of players who just want to have fun and que where any element of competitiveness or skill is completely gone from pvp which is why that entire community has left the game. Almost sounds like the reason you started pvping again and found so much success LOL
Anytime fundamental changes are made to a foundational element of any game/content, players will be alienated, complain, and leave. "Different," however, does not intrinsically mean "worse." It's hypocritical to decry real or perceived issues with the new system while ignoring the problems with the old one. Rose-coloured glasses don't leave much room for objectivity. Some of the categories you're complaining about were just as problematic then as they are now, some things are worse, and some things are better. Perfectly balancing PVP for multiple arena sizes simultaneously is effectively impossible. Even serious, dedicated, competitive, 1v1-only fighters with comparatively minute, set-in-stone move sets struggle (and fail) to do so. With the revamp, we saw massive, sweeping changes that affected balance and meta across the board. We shifted from a primary focus on fighter-lite mechanics that were sometimes problematic due to the game's net code to an emphasis on power use/avoidance and CC/interruption, with weapon attacks still being integral in anything close to an even match. Arena specific meta comp options somewhat replace those of the RPS system while still requiring balance, benefiting smaller arenas while (over)simplifying larger ones. Weapons rebalancing has been a mixed bag. 1v1 role "cheese" existed just as much then as it did now. Neither system is perfect. I'd have rather seen a hybrid that used RPS in 8-man content, non-RPS for lower, and restricted 1v1/2v2 to DPS only. One specific note: decrying a game/system for players feeling the need to make bans/house rules in competitive play is foolish. This is extremely common, specifically because of the aforementioned challenge of balancing competitive games. Fighters do it. TCGs do it. Pretty much everyone does it. Getting mad at the devs for some powers/abilities being overtuned for some situations when the spread of potential situations in DCUO arena has a ludicrous number of permutations is ridiculous. It's asking them to get into an absurd level of minutia that would detract from pretty much every other aspect of the game in order to achieve. Players can either just disallow certain powers or impose restrictions on them, just like other competitive communities do. Regardless of one's feelings towards the change, its important that they be honest/objective about things. My "hella off base" comment was in the context that this section/community is extremely vitriolic in their lambasting the new system as a wasteland dumpsterfire filled with nothing but atomic cheesers and the like to the point it seems almost everyone here is basically campaigning to keep people from doing PVP at all. The reality is a lot lest smacked by epeen and hubris. Could the devs make further improvements if they wanted to? Of course. But why bother when this is how the PVP community acts? Not only will any change alienate a percentage of the playerbase, but this section of the forum seems incapable of objective analysis on what should important, nuanced, and complex issues. Off topic: Are you a narcissist?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ allllllllll of this. They don’t understand how bad pvp has become because they didn’t play pvp during that time. RIP CMK
Incorrect. PVP'd extensively as it was the only thing in the game I had left to do. Pretty much the only PVP-associated feats I didn't get back then are the ones that were still broken at the time. It's fine to acknowledge that most veterans didn't like the changes. However, it's still important to maintain objectivity when assessing the differences.
Being that most vets and every known PvP league 86'd the game after revamp. It's pretty a pretty safe comment. Did you pvp, competitively or in set groups, before revamp? Back when se had RPS? After every PvP thru the life of this game. There have been mass exodus. My point, this last change after the revamp did not see a new round of PvPers. When my boys and I were bored and PvPing nightly this past January. We rarely saw set groups. Before revamp? Most knew not to que containment or temple. There would 100% be set groups in there. Pvp is dead. The only goal left in this game is how much in-game money you can hoard and wearing dumb looking materials, auras, eels, etc. all over your character.
