More Difficult in Upcoming Raids

I like the idea but maybe it's the Rep farming/gear structure that's the issue. I'll never be able to run the higher tier difficulty, and that's fine. What I don't find ok though is having the best vendor gear locked behind Rep farming with no way to get rep if for whatever reason you cannot complete Elite content. Farming rep should a time sink, not a huge challenge.The introduction of varied Elite difficulty opens a few new paths. Allow rep to be farmed via weekly mission or something opens the door for more players to actually dip toes into Elite content without getting steam rolled or kicked as easily.


But, all the Elite folks in this thread. I'm curious.. once you max rep do you really still run the hardest version of the raid just for "fun"? Or do you downgrade to regular just for the marks and boasting? Because once you max rep.. what is the point of doing the hardest of the hard if it's only Rep? It seems a bit masochistic to me. I'd be ok if the best of the best gear only dropped on super elite hard mode like most MMO's and wasn't purchased off the vendor. Then you're actually earning it instead of just farming rep and marks to buy it. Maybe a new category of gear.. like "Legendary" or something.

I dont honestly care one way or the other what steps they take (i think they took good one this time in that there is 5 dif hardness settings)
Thats a step in the rite direction to me.
My whole point is players come here claiming to be elite (which is subjective) and they claim its too easy because its easy for them (also subjective and quite self centered).
Im simply exposing the glaring flaw in the claim is all.
Just cause they think they are elite doesnt make it so. And just cause its easy for them doesnt mean its too easy.
I cant say it enough, that line of thinking flawed on every imaginable level. There nothing substantive to it, nothing factual, and its not evidence based. Its nothing more a conclusion drawn based on subjective limited info (im sooo elite and good but at the time its too easy for me therefore it must be too easy)
Gimmi a break..... thats the argument presented..... seriously? No one can do better?

Follow that train of thought to its logical conclusion. The top 8 best players in the game can make the exact same argument with just as much merit and if they got their wish, then elite wouod tuned up to the point only they could complete an the same ones here cryin its currently too easy would be cryin its too hard.
The argument is busted, and busted quite easily. Make a less subjective and more factual and evidence based argument and perhaps more people would jump to your side.
I personally think they should be harder as i have said. Im just coherent enough to understand its due to my own narrow subjective view of it and i have the capacity to understand that in itself makes it a weak an hollow argument thus im not making the claim.

I think you're mischaracterizing the problem. You're right that difficulty is subjective. It's subjective because it depends on each individual's ability. However, we can talk about difficulty more objectively by fixing a point of reference. If we have some objective goal or standard for difficulty, then it makes perfect sense to say that something is objectively too hard or objectively too easy relative to that standard.

Of course, we don't have such a standard. The devs have never come out and defined some objective quantitative standard that can be used to determine whether an elite raid is of sufficient difficulty. Maybe they have some version of that internally. I don't know. The devs certainly have made some qualitative comments here and there about their intentions for elite difficulty, which is better than nothing, though I'm not sure how useful that is as a measuring stick during the actual design/tuning process.

What this objective standard should be is often debated in discussions about difficulty. What is the ideal difficulty of an elite raid? What does it look like? See, the problem is not that difficulty is subjective, it's that we don't have this agreed upon standard that would allow us to objectively describe the difficulty of a raid.

If two or more people did agree on a standard, they would also agree on the objective difficulty of a raid regardless of who they are or what their skill level is. "Too easy" would not mean "too easy for me," it would be mean "too easy relative to what it should be."

Ultimately, this intended goal or standard for elite raid difficulty is entirely up to the devs. Only they can shed light on things like what proportion of players should be beating elite, to whom should it feel easy/difficult/impossible, etc. Maybe they've changed their mind over the years. I don't know.

My opinion, based on the devs' expressed intentions for elite ever since TOTDe, as well as my own bias, is that even the best in the game should feel challenged by elite content. And past raids have proved that this is entirely possible.

The argument that some players are just too good to ever reasonably expect the devs to create content that challenges them, just like your "8 best players" argument, is nice in theory, but doesn't make sense in reality. In reality, it is not possible to linearly rank every DCUO player according to their skill and then create a raid such that only the top 8 players can beat and no one else can. In reality, this game doesn't have millions of active players and there doesn't exist this small group of outliers who are so extremely good that creating challenging raids for them would mean excluding 99.9% of players. That just isn't the case.

I can get behind a fair bit of that and im gonna cherry pick because i am sick and cant unpak it all.
Im glad someone advocating for it harder for “reasons” has the cognitive ability to not just cry “its too easy”. Also glad that you have the comprehension to see the lack of objective info to justify or support the claim and even admits the personal bias.
Thank you for that
That said, i feel like you, my subjective view is that its too easy (specifically now that i know the mechanics). I dont consider myself elite by any stretch. I am asset to almost any group fro almost any task but elite? Na, my ego just isint big enough to claim that. Given that, im not gonna just post cryin its too easy with that elitist attitude. Since u say previous raids proved the “elite balance” can be obtained, im curious what content specifically your referencing? I ask because origin crisis is referenced in this argument a fair bit but i’d be careful using that as the benchmark of what elite should look like. I say that because many ppl quit the game over those 2 raids. Thats bad for business. Im sure those “elite” players who figured it out an made it through were lovin it but was that worth losing the customer base?
My thing is if someone wants to approach this like you and form coherant arguments based at least in logic since we dont have the objective standard as you mentioned then im all ears and that’d be good and productive feedback.
Its the cryin “its too easy” that get under my skin. Theres no logic or explanation or justification. It just sounds a bunch of ppl who think are so good are just upset that players they think are inferior are a le to clear it also.
And if im rite an that is what their issue is then nothing they can offer is feedback, its just whining.

Edit:
My “8 best players” reference/example is simply the logical conclusion based on the argument most make which is “its too easy” or “elite should be only for elite”. What they mean when they say this is look how good i am, no one worse than me should be able to have what i uave an if they do its not fair an was too easy. Its quite self absorbed and for sure does not have the best interest of the game or other players in mind. Its a self serving attitude and a toxic one at that.

Im talking in general you have a lot of players who would like harder versions of the elite raids.

Q one of the harder versions then
Try the new system for more than a week.
Not you specifically, but in general these “holier than thou” super extreme elite players just cant handle that ppl with a lower aptitude for the game than themselves are able to get through an get renown too.
Personally i wanna run with these “elite” players an see how good they really are.
Im bettin they either aint as good as they think (im not, dif is i can admit it) or they r prob just good with mechanics and/or have a select group who are also good an thus make it feel easier than it actually is. I dont have a super elite special group that i do these elite runs in. I join/build groups if enough league ppl aint on. You should not have to have some super secret super friends group that knows each other well an knows the playstyles an prob have strategies worked out ahead to be in perfect sync to clear a relevant elite raid.
If u have a group of solid players an can fig out you can clear. I see no issue in that.

Let me ask this, its a guess so no im not hold anyones feet to the fire on the % or the numbers.
How many active players are there at endgame? And out of that, how many do any of u believe actually want these 2 elites to be harder OR think they are too easy?
Im betting if your honest, it aint all that high of a % and the player count im betting aint as high as you’d bet be ause to be honest, you have to go outside your “elite” circle to see the rest of us and account for us.

I pug ALOT, partially on purpose, partially due to not many on friends list live when im live. I say that to say that i hardly ever run into anyone i dont already know that i would say “holy crap, this guy/gal is a beast”.
That could mean a few things but 2 things it prob means is:
1) the “elite” players are sticking to themselves and not venturing out into the general population to run content
2) they carry a distorted sense of if the raid is actually hard because they are making it as easy as possible by running it with the absolute best players on at the time.
These 2 points are what fuels my logical question.......
Is it the raid is too easy or are “you” too good?

Stop getting paranoid dude, I don’t care who can or who can not do the raids, i want some versions of raids that feel impossible,if it’s too hard for you you could always do the easier difficulties.

So conclusion, you have always some lower difficulties for those who can’t beat the harder versions so these people are happy isn’t it?

No what about people who want some harder difficulties that feel very hard and a serious challenge, they can’t get that?

We should only please you?

So you want to be able to beat absolutely everything with random groups made in LFG, but players/leagues/groups who want some hard raids screw them right?

Such a good post

The most recent example is FGSe. While not a perfect raid, I think the difficulty was about right (with all bugs fixed). I'm pretty sure even the top leagues/players didn't find it too easy.

I'm not sure how exactly the raid was received by the endgame population as a whole. I'm sure there are people who would argue that it was too hard, as there will always be, and in that case, I would ask what their argument is.

Yes, a lot of us keep running it even if we're maxed on renown. Could be for rare drops, could be for extra coins, helping friends max theirs, helping league mates cap old prestige, many reasons really. Plus it's more fun. Can already run the new regular raids with 7 dps and a tank so not like we aren't trying to find ways to challenge ourselves any other ways. Then most have alts and that starts the farming renown happen all over again.

And just to comment on other ways to get renown: very unnecessary. There's plenty of ways and plenty are taking advantage now. Just ran the elite duo (needed 2 extra coins) on my maxed renown toon and my partner was barely cr relevant and highest art was a 79 eog. 2 others weren't at 20 rank yet. They came out with however much renown you get after 6 other toons dipped on them before I came in. I applaud their desire to play harder content and reap the rewards. Making it any easier than that and may as well just toss elite gear

Fgse is perfect in my eyes and I would assume it just passes over the "too difficult" line in the sand. It just had like a tinyyyy bit of too many mechanics overlapping and the only terrible part of it is that the Zues fight makes you start all the way over at the statues and any down counts. That fight is far too long for that portion to have been included.

You do need to consider that both raids had only one difficulty there was no novice (easyier) version.

It would be the same if they would release elite difficulty only in a episode the same mass exodus would happen so there wasnt something wrong with the content / difficulty itself but with it having only one difficulty these days we have 2 difficultys so this issue wont happen if they decide to make it very hard again.

I feel like a lot of people don't consider this. Imagine elite raids existed when Origin Crisis came out. And imagine the Paradox and Nexus that we had were the elite versions, and there were much easier normal versions. There's probably no mass exodus in that case. So the argument "look what happened with OC" in response to the idea of having elite raids with a similar relative difficulty to that of the OC raids fails.

Back when there was only one version of a raid, it made perfect sense for the devs to want the vast majority of the endgame player base to be capable of beating it. The same cannot be said about elite raids. Only a small percentage of the endgame player base is expected to beat it consistently. That's literally the reason it's an additional version of a raid and not its own unique raid. So that those who can't or don't want to do elite aren't missing out and can still experience the raid in its normal version. And this isn't my opinion. This is all straight from the devs' mouth from back when TOTDe came out.

I will say it seems like the percentage of players expected to be capable of elite raids has increased over the years and I'm totally okay with that, however, it should only be allowed to increase insofar as the content does not begin to defeat its own purpose, which is to provide a challenge to the more skilled players of the game.

Yes and to touch on the topic that there are more players that are „Elite“ these days is imo because of certain things such as artifacts that made it way easyier to play as a support roll and that increased our ST dps by a insane amount which decreased the difficulty by alot. Allowing people to use 4-5 DPS in a raid group contributes to this further.

if they would adjust the content knowing that people have 3x rank 200 artifacts aswell as acces to full Elite gear (elite alert,duo) without even entering the Elite raid that would be a good direction,the game gets less popular for Endgame players because of the mediocore difficulty i know so many that take a break because they feel once again underwhelmed by the Elite raids do they not want people to spend hours,days trying to defeat the bosses, gearing up buying things to get stats,being active? All of this is not needed if we can do it with previous episode stats.

A quick mediocore Elite raid is not fun. I really hope they understand how much it means that Origin crisis with the hardest raids ever released won and how much this is the type of difficulty people want for Elite. And generally for them to invest more ressources into the Raids. To wait 4 months for new Elite raids just to defeat each boss in 4 minutes isnt fun.

Disclosure:
Paradox wave is easily my fav raid ever. Would love to have a relevant version. That said, “origin crisis won” is a terrible argument maybe? I mean, i was there for it, many many ppl quit the game over it. That raid was legit! That said, would it not be logical to assume that the votes cast in the pool dont truly reflect all the players? I mean, if u quit over it then your not here to have your voice. The only voices we have are from those currently playing/following no? If im correct (i may not be) then the data would have a massive flaw in that it would unintentionally be very biased toward that raid/episode.
Now i get it, i agree that it is some data we objectively have access too but forming an argument based on data we know pretty much must be flawwed is foolish no?

You clearly haven't read the whole discussion. Not once did i complain about the difficulty... i tried to tell him that his feedback is not the only feedback that the developers will listen to. So next time before you reply try to read the whole subject instead of assuming that i'm complaining about diffculty.

Thank you and take care.

From what I understand there were also external influencers at play in terms of that poll, If I understand correctly Justice League Dark was actually winning until some people started appealing to their followers and the like to vote for Origin Crisis.

You could argue some of those votes aren't really legitimate, as they don't truly necessarily reflect the opinion of the voter but rather the person persuading them to vote that way, without those votes Justice League Dark my very well have won.

Given Justice League Dark included two modern elite raids and it was obviously heavily voted for by players also currently still playing this game one should possibly look at those elite raids as a potential benchmark, worth a thought.

Agreed
Poll data in any form is always some of the least reliable and easily manipulated of the data sources one could use for various things.
In politics its presented as if its some gospel reflection yet i have never once been polled nor have i met anyone who has been polled im aware of. Its selective and easily manipulated.
Now, i personally think origin crisis was the best because dox was legit an nexus was a good one too. I dont think they were too hard day 1, just needed figured out. Also, i got my quantum power from that dlc so im biased lol

Tom Brady - "You made football far too easy. I already earned 7 Super Elite Rings"