Stats Revamp 1.7

Memphis Rainz · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Hey everyone,

I wanted to chime in to try to help us get on the same page with respect to healing, power healing, etc.
Here are some things players have asked for:

Make Roles more important

Make hard content require 2-2-2-2

Make more challenging content

Remove 1-shots from unavoidable NPC attacks

Now, some testers seem to be asking for a solo Role able to heal / power heal / tank through difficult content while at baseline stats (low SP, no mods, no generator mods). Basically, infinite power and the ability to constantly spam the highest cost abilities.

The two positions can't be reconciled.
Here are some problems. Let's use Healers as the best example. If a Healer has infinite power to spam max cost heals without interruption, then:

You don't need Controllers to power heal, because you have infinite Power.

You only need 1 Healer, because you're basically full healing the entire party every second. Also, healing becomes super "spammy", which was an issue we addressed in earlier versions of the Revamp.

Your sustained healing vastly outpaces NPC damage, meaning no challenge (you can heal through "stupid" easily). Thus there's no way to provide challenging content.

If we raise NPC damage to match the insane healing throughput this gives, then NPCs one-shot everyone besides the Tank.

Now a few more points: we are trying to balance the game to provide appropriately challenging content, and to provide choices in play style.

Choices in play style means as a healer, you can focus more of your stats (mods, generator mods, etc.) in power, to gain more sustained healing at the cost of lower burst healing. This will play differently from a healer who focuses exclusively on restoration for higher burst. This does not mean you put 1 point in power mastery and suddenly have unlimited power.
Fun healing in challenging content consists of a mix of sustained and burst healing, and will look sort of like a heart monitor over time (see image below). You have periods of sustained healing, then you respond to a big boss attack with a quick burst of high intensity healing, followed by a recovery period as you shift back into sustained healing. In terms of a rotation, this means you're doing a mix of weapon attacks and your priority heal and four-man heal for sustained healing, unloading your entire bar (maybe even supercharges) for the burst, then rebuilding your power with weapon attacks to be ready for the next spike. Since you don't need to be healing at max efficiency 100% of the time, you will be doing weapon attacks in between heals, which means you should go Hybrid for the better power regen from weapon attacks. DPS on the other hand will always try to be at max performance, hence the support for PftT DPS by adding power to the might stat.

Some last points:

At no point in this Revamp have we ever had feedback that groups have been unable to complete raids (because of high power costs or any other reason). Even in PUGS. Even in a 5-1-1-1 composition. If this does happen, it's likely a specific issue with content (NPC's bugged to be invulnerable or 1-shotting players), so please report any abnormally difficult (or easy) content as a bug. For Elite content we expect you to run multiple support roles as needed to beat the content. If you're beating Elites at your level with 5-1-1-1 either your support roles are exceptionally skilled and well equipped, or Elites are too easy .

Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs.

”

Agreed with every word. Good explanation for people that keep complain about power cost and don't understand all picture.

CrappyHeals · Jul 11, 2017

Powers costs, scaling are messssssed up and need to be addressed.

Mighty · Jul 11, 2017

Also, @Moja

Your comments here: Stats Revamp 1.7 make it seem like generator mods are factored into power scaling because in the first test the user utilizes Olympian mods, in the second test, which has the same "time to empty" the user uses special forces mods at a higher CR. Does that not mean that mods are required to maintain a status quo of power management per CR gain?

Charmed Legacy · Jul 11, 2017

Mepps said: ↑

“Your description above of combat and gameplay is very much in line with the goals of the revamp. Below is the opposite, and not in the direction we want to go.

It is very useful for us to see your thoughts spelled out so clearly, so thank you for continuing to engage.”

Mepps, no one wants more challenging content than I do, but watering down heals, crippling controllers, and making squishy tanks isn't how you accomplish that. When people complain for harder content they mean mechanics and challenges not this. Solo healing or trolling should still be able to be accomplished by a skilled player without the expense of something else. Yes, I am able to solo heal everything on test, but at the expense of abusing 2 trolls because my HoTs are watered down and my power costs are insane. That's not making content more challenging that's just unnecessary. Support roles should function properly, and the content be what the challenge is.

mexmex · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Hey everyone,

I wanted to chime in to try to help us get on the same page with respect to healing, power healing, etc.
Here are some things players have asked for:

Make Roles more important

Make hard content require 2-2-2-2

Make more challenging content

Remove 1-shots from unavoidable NPC attacks

Now, some testers seem to be asking for a solo Role able to heal / power heal / tank through difficult content while at baseline stats (low SP, no mods, no generator mods). Basically, infinite power and the ability to constantly spam the highest cost abilities.
The two positions can't be reconciled.
Here are some problems. Let's use Healers as the best example. If a Healer has infinite power to spam max cost heals without interruption, then:

You don't need Controllers to power heal, because you have infinite Power.

You only need 1 Healer, because you're basically full healing the entire party every second. Also, healing becomes super "spammy", which was an issue we addressed in earlier versions of the Revamp.

Your sustained healing vastly outpaces NPC damage, meaning no challenge (you can heal through "stupid" easily). Thus there's no way to provide challenging content.

If we raise NPC damage to match the insane healing throughput this gives, then NPCs one-shot everyone besides the Tank.

Now a few more points: we are trying to balance the game to provide appropriately challenging content, and to provide choices in play style.
Choices in play style means as a healer, you can focus more of your stats (mods, generator mods, etc.) in power, to gain more sustained healing at the cost of lower burst healing. This will play differently from a healer who focuses exclusively on restoration for higher burst. This does not mean you put 1 point in power mastery and suddenly have unlimited power.
Fun healing in challenging content consists of a mix of sustained and burst healing, and will look sort of like a heart monitor over time (see image below). You have periods of sustained healing, then you respond to a big boss attack with a quick burst of high intensity healing, followed by a recovery period as you shift back into sustained healing. In terms of a rotation, this means you're doing a mix of weapon attacks and your priority heal and four-man heal for sustained healing, unloading your entire bar (maybe even supercharges) for the burst, then rebuilding your power with weapon attacks to be ready for the next spike. Since you don't need to be healing at max efficiency 100% of the time, you will be doing weapon attacks in between heals, which means you should go Hybrid for the better power regen from weapon attacks. DPS on the other hand will always try to be at max performance, hence the support for PftT DPS by adding power to the might stat.

Some last points:

At no point in this Revamp have we ever had feedback that groups have been unable to complete raids (because of high power costs or any other reason). Even in PUGS. Even in a 5-1-1-1 composition. If this does happen, it's likely a specific issue with content (NPC's bugged to be invulnerable or 1-shotting players), so please report any abnormally difficult (or easy) content as a bug. For Elite content we expect you to run multiple support roles as needed to beat the content. If you're beating Elites at your level with 5-1-1-1 either your support roles are exceptionally skilled and well equipped, or Elites are too easy .

Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs.

”

I do agree, people are used to be so power spammy, glad they can't now, and the healers need to be aware and maybe communicate more who does what or when rotate if one runs out of power, it is call team work. I do like this explanation, maybe I do agree with lowering the ability costs only in support role a little let's say 15%

the only thing I would want to point out is about controllers, let them throw pot, as often as trolls wants, add POT to more abilitys not to all of them, keep debuffs apart from POT, add a second instant recharge and change the number of people affected by it (1,5) and make some stun powers really potent without adding pot or debuffs on them, so controllers can really be more controlling according to the situation. And build content around all this changes in the revamp

xD25x · Jul 11, 2017

Yes everything can be beaten with the setup the way it is. Could it be that content is so easy? The other question I have to ask is it fun? Is it engaging for players? The majority of the feedback is that it isnt.

Jacob Dragonhunter · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Hey everyone,

I wanted to chime in to try to help us get on the same page with respect to healing, power healing, etc.
Here are some things players have asked for:

Make Roles more important

Make hard content require 2-2-2-2

Make more challenging content

Remove 1-shots from unavoidable NPC attacks

Now, some testers seem to be asking for a solo Role able to heal / power heal / tank through difficult content while at baseline stats (low SP, no mods, no generator mods). Basically, infinite power and the ability to constantly spam the highest cost abilities.

No, we aren't asking for this. We are saying Healers aren't manageable. 450, 300, 200 abilties are all over the place. And on top of it too, Controllers are barely able to feed us power as is on test. If you need Details, Charmed explained the power cost situation perfectly fine.
We aren't asking for Solo Healers, we are asking for these changes for multiple reasons.
1. Battle healing isn't viable due to high cost, and powersets like Celestial were known for having the function to do stuff like that.
2. As I've said it before, due to these high power cost's at this rate; you're basically making trollers batteries.
3. And because trollers aren't able to put out enough power, and the regeneration isn't good enough; Support Roles after the revamp will be tedious chores.
4. And one more thing, Why do you only insist on giving additional power only to DPS? Like I said before, DPS are the only one that get additional power through might. Support Roles barely use might, especially in hybrid. Just picture this on live "How do I get additional power for my controller so he can output more power" X person says"Spec into might" Troller guy: "But I don't use might, I use vit." X person"Oh well, that's the changes so you'll have to deal with it." See how inconvenient that is? We're expected to give out power, expected to use weapons/hybrid and yet the current stat setup doesn't benefit from hybrid; it only benefits Playing From The Tray.

Now a few more points: we are trying to balance the game to provide appropriately challenging content, and to provide choices in play style.

Choices in play style means as a healer, you can focus more of your stats (mods, generator mods, etc.) in power, to gain more sustained healing at the cost of lower burst healing. This will play differently from a healer who focuses exclusively on restoration for higher burst. This does not mean you put 1 point in power mastery and suddenly have unlimited power.
Fun healing in challenging content consists of a mix of sustained and burst healing, and will look sort of like a heart monitor over time (see image below). You have periods of sustained healing, then you respond to a big boss attack with a quick burst of high intensity healing, followed by a recovery period as you shift back into sustained healing. In terms of a rotation, this means you're doing a mix of weapon attacks and your priority heal and four-man heal for sustained healing, unloading your entire bar (maybe even supercharges) for the burst, then rebuilding your power with weapon attacks to be ready for the next spike. Since you don't need to be healing at max efficiency 100% of the time, you will be doing weapon attacks in between heals, which means you should go Hybrid for the better power regen from weapon attacks. DPS on the other hand will always try to be at max performance, hence the support for PftT DPS by adding power to the might stat.
Like I said before, this setup forces Hybrid for support roles. Combo powersets won't be unique, Celestial was known for it's ability to be a battle healer and now you've basically taken that away with this setup. Another thing that boggles my mind is that DPS powers are capped only to 300, Yet Healers and Trollers have to deal with 450's.. That's not fair or balanced, Moja.

Also: Unloading your entire bar will just cause Controllers to yell at you, Controllers are meant to power up the entire group not just the healer. You're trying to say this revamp is promoting skill, but you also say we should start doing things like Unloading our entire power bar.. That's Spam healing in a sense. No skill, and certainly not efficient.
The Controllers Main Job is to provide Power, Stun, and Debuff; but if it can't stun or debuff due to the healer unloading their entire power bar, then you have a big problem on your hands.

Some last points:

At no point in this Revamp have we ever had feedback that groups have been unable to complete raids (because of high power costs or any other reason). Even in PUGS. Even in a 5-1-1-1 composition. If this does happen, it's likely a specific issue with content (NPC's bugged to be invulnerable or 1-shotting players), so please report any abnormally difficult (or easy) content as a bug. For Elite content we expect you to run multiple support roles as needed to beat the content. If you're beating Elites at your level with 5-1-1-1 either your support roles are exceptionally skilled and well equipped, or Elites are too easy .

Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs. Keep up? If you try running any form of solo content, you won't be able to do a PFTT rotation or anything like that without struggling and just spamming one 100 burst attack over and over again. This also means that it's gonna be a struggle for Healers and Support Roles to complete any daily content; since their cost is so high compared to DPS.

”

Oh boy, that was a lot of misunderstanding.

I typed out my response in red.

mexmex · Jul 11, 2017

Charmed Legacy said: ↑

“Mepps, no one wants more challenging content than I do, but watering down heals, crippling controllers, and making squishy tanks isn't how you accomplish that. When people complain for harder content they mean mechanics and challenges not this. Solo healing or trolling should still be able to be accomplished by a skilled player without the expense of something else. Yes, I am able to solo heal everything on test, but at the expense of abusing 2 trolls because my HoTs are watered down and my power costs are insane. That's not making content more challenging that's just unnecessary. Support roles should function properly, and the content be what the challenge is.”

If you are still solo healing in the revamp, it proves that it can be done easily with two healers isn't? If that is the case why so much complaint about it, is just because they can't spam so often? honest question

stärnbock · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs.”

look, this is exactly the problem and i dont see how this is not a big problem...!
gear rises costs more than you get power in return, meaning the higher the cr the less powers you can use...
you expect everyone to have all generator mods on power, health is not an option. also, there is no way to get power with SP,
unless you do might/power... THAT is of course making it harder as a challenge, but is it realy fair? especially when it only gets worse in the future with new gear, higher costs, less and even less powers to be able to use untill the power bar is empty...

its just something that is giving me the shivers, and please explain this to me, because i still don't get it...?

Shark Dental · Jul 11, 2017

CaptainColdJr007 said: ↑

“Um. If "entire group can be paying no attention, just the healer" is the direction you want to go, that contradicts the purpose of a solo role in 5-1-1-1 as opposed to 2-2-2-2.

The community sees the difference as being based on the skill of the individual as opposed to the rest of the group.

- group has a healer who's skill level is 6/10 in a 5-1-1-1 comp.
- group makes a mistake and dies because that healer couldn't heal them

*community solution*
- bring in a healer who's skill level is 8-9/10 that can heal them through that mistake because of their skill level.

*dev solution*
- bring in a second healer who's skill is 6/10 for a 4-1-2-1 comp.
or
- group learns to not make a mistake

The current problem you haven't seemed to realize is that what happens on revamp and what most will try on live is:
*community solution*
- bring in a healer who's skill level is 8-9/10
- wipes again because even though they know how to heal through the mistake, they are limited due to power issues and healing output possible.

To run 5-1-1-1 or any variation of 1 troll or 1 heal, we expect to have skilled support roles that are able to use their knowledge and reaction time to keep people powered/healed.

When that solo troll or solo heal is limited by the game itself and cannot carry the group, the productivity of their skill is gone.
If the solution to that situation is on the group to not a mistake, then anyone can solo heal because it's a group effort and it's no longer skill related. If you bring in a second heal, skill doesn't matter either because you have twice as many healers.

You are basically forcing 2 troll, 2 heal, 3 dps,1 tank in certain scenarios, not out of the fact that the players aren't skilled enough enough to run 1 troll 1 heal, but that the game forbids 1 person from achieving the output needed from that role.

To put it another way in an example:
raid boss requires 11,0000 healing every 5 seconds.

A person with a skill level of 1-10 will give 1000 healing every 5 seconds for every point they have.
Skill level of 2 has 2000/s
Skill level of 5 has 5000/s
Skill level of 9 has 9000/s

Even with a skill level of 10, you'd only be at 10,000 healing. Even a perfect healer would be struggling and possibly barely carrying the group if at all dependant on how strict that 11k requirement is.

Considering you've babysat the community in seasonals and nerfed raids over the year, the option of the group not having a mistake is off the table. Which means bringing in a second healer, and all you'd need is 2 healers that are 5-6/10 skill level wise to get to through the raid. That makes every healer that's at 8-10/10 that's used to solo healing for years feel like their extra skill is useless. They'd never be able to solo heal from a mathematically standpoint with the way the community is. You'd be struggling trying to push that 10k up to 11k somehow praying to god that RNG makes it 10,500 and you get a few healing crits or that your controllers have some overdrive when you need it most, which makes you dependent on them.

A solo healer is supposed to be able to make up for a group's mistakes, not just to be some weak roleless buff inside of a raid. How much they can make up for depended on their skill on the past, with the best healers being able to make up for most mistakes besides extremely heavy dots (pools for ex. or zeus lightning) or 1shots (1-3 huge hits in less than 2-3 seconds). To have that no longer exist because of power issues, says that their skill level above 6/10 doesn't matter because 6 is all it takes to complete content with 2 healers, and you'll never be high enough to solo heal consistently with pug trolls.”

I get what you're saying, and I get where they're coming from too. Basically, it comes down to, they don't want one healer to be able to heal the entire group all the time to full anymore. In the past, they compensated for this by boosting boss and NPC damage so much that there was literally no wiggle room for mistakes. 1 shots galore. Button mashing. Who cares what heal I use? They all will do the job!

Now they're reducing NPC damage, and healing to full shouldn't be necessary all the time. Does the tank forget to grab an add? It shouldn't one shot the nearest dps anymore. It should do significant damage, but not kill them. That way they can move, or the tank can grab them, etc. And this seems to be the case on test, as far as I've seen from videos (I only tank in revamp). Does half the group have their health bars at half? No problem. That's what the devs are saying. There shouldn't be any reason having your health bar at full is essential anymore.

Perdition · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Hey everyone,

I wanted to chime in to try to help us get on the same page with respect to healing, power healing, etc.
Here are some things players have asked for:

Make Roles more important

Make hard content require 2-2-2-2

Make more challenging content

Remove 1-shots from unavoidable NPC attacks

Now, some testers seem to be asking for a solo Role able to heal / power heal / tank through difficult content while at baseline stats (low SP, no mods, no generator mods). Basically, infinite power and the ability to constantly spam the highest cost abilities.
The two positions can't be reconciled.
Here are some problems. Let's use Healers as the best example. If a Healer has infinite power to spam max cost heals without interruption, then:

You don't need Controllers to power heal, because you have infinite Power.

You only need 1 Healer, because you're basically full healing the entire party every second. Also, healing becomes super "spammy", which was an issue we addressed in earlier versions of the Revamp.

Your sustained healing vastly outpaces NPC damage, meaning no challenge (you can heal through "stupid" easily). Thus there's no way to provide challenging content.

If we raise NPC damage to match the insane healing throughput this gives, then NPCs one-shot everyone besides the Tank.

Now a few more points: we are trying to balance the game to provide appropriately challenging content, and to provide choices in play style.
Choices in play style means as a healer, you can focus more of your stats (mods, generator mods, etc.) in power, to gain more sustained healing at the cost of lower burst healing. This will play differently from a healer who focuses exclusively on restoration for higher burst. This does not mean you put 1 point in power mastery and suddenly have unlimited power.
Fun healing in challenging content consists of a mix of sustained and burst healing, and will look sort of like a heart monitor over time (see image below). You have periods of sustained healing, then you respond to a big boss attack with a quick burst of high intensity healing, followed by a recovery period as you shift back into sustained healing. In terms of a rotation, this means you're doing a mix of weapon attacks and your priority heal and four-man heal for sustained healing, unloading your entire bar (maybe even supercharges) for the burst, then rebuilding your power with weapon attacks to be ready for the next spike. Since you don't need to be healing at max efficiency 100% of the time, you will be doing weapon attacks in between heals, which means you should go Hybrid for the better power regen from weapon attacks. DPS on the other hand will always try to be at max performance, hence the support for PftT DPS by adding power to the might stat.

Some last points:

At no point in this Revamp have we ever had feedback that groups have been unable to complete raids (because of high power costs or any other reason). Even in PUGS. Even in a 5-1-1-1 composition. If this does happen, it's likely a specific issue with content (NPC's bugged to be invulnerable or 1-shotting players), so please report any abnormally difficult (or easy) content as a bug. For Elite content we expect you to run multiple support roles as needed to beat the content. If you're beating Elites at your level with 5-1-1-1 either your support roles are exceptionally skilled and well equipped, or Elites are too easy .

Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs.

”

Moja,

Tell me the point of controllers? All i can see is that u made them pure batteries again. There is nothing else u can do.. The way they are designed now is just to apply a debuff and spam the same power every 1,5 secs and still that isnt enought to keep healers up... u say the mods are not mandatory yet they are showing by the test result.. so which one is it.. where did the "control"er aspect go? I will give u a raid as example: Assault And Battery. That raid was amazing, it gave trollers actually something to do.. half of the testers here knows this game inside and out. When they point flaws please listen to them. Too many bad moves happend in the past by ignoring those people. I will stand my ground and keep saying that power consumption need to be looked at and that we dont need to sacrifice our main stat to spec into power. Because that is what we have to do now....

Xibo · Jul 11, 2017

To be honest, most are still having a lot of problems to complete DWFe in terms of 5-1-1-1 formation. I don't think that we are having problems of hard content since the Elite version was created.

Lt Skymaster · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“snip”

I had to chime in and say:

The ability to heal should be an added part of the difficulty of a raid, but it shouldn't be the sole thing to address. When you're talking about the difficulty of a raid it should be based of of mechanics that aren't only directed towards healing ( Like I said healing should only add)

I believe the feedback hasn't been well understood in that regard.

Celestial Powers · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Hey everyone,

I wanted to chime in to try to help us get on the same page with respect to healing, power healing, etc.
Here are some things players have asked for:

Make Roles more important Yes make them important, making them useful is another issue, the cost for output for healers isn't as high as you think. And if controllers If i saw above correctly can only dump 3000 power with that ability, what's 3000 power when my ability costs near enough triple that?

Make hard content require 2-2-2-2 Yes, hard content, this means stuff like Nexus and Paradox, layers upon layers of bosses and mechanics, not things that just have a lot more HP and damage and things that allow you to ignore mechanics with minimal danger, see the Olympus and GoM

Make more challenging content

Remove 1-shots from unavoidable NPC attacks Remove one shots from attacks that are unavoidable yes, but if there's a warning for it, a skull and an indication to move out the way then it should still one shot, if you take out that aspect of the game then you reduce so much potential for any sort of worry of a group wipe and just makes the game boring.

Now, some testers seem to be asking for a solo Role able to heal / power heal / tank through difficult content while at baseline stats (low SP, no mods, no generator mods). Basically, infinite power and the ability to constantly spam the highest cost abilities.
The two positions can't be reconciled.

Ultimate Solider Regular, first is not difficult, comparing it to the actual difficult content that this game had, Solomon Grundy is a joke, Gentleman Ghost has one mechanic that requires a little bit of brain and then there's the rooms fire mechanic. The last boss, the Ultimate Solider while has some nice mechanics falls flat because even if I am in the red target zones I'm not going to die, even if I don't block. And even when allowing all three bosses to come through, the main reason it's easy is because of how easy DPS have it to burn through them.

I haven't seen anyone ask for being able to solo a role at barebone stats, no one's mentioned the word infinite power nor have they implied it, If anything comparisons have been done with how live servers deal with power and if you think that's infinite power then I don't know what to say. Power consumption on live servers was 100% perfect, the only reason we went down to one troll was due to the WM and AM power mechanics.

Here are some problems. Let's use Healers as the best example. If a Healer has infinite power to spam max cost heals without interruption, then:

You don't need Controllers to power heal, because you have infinite Power.

You only need 1 Healer, because you're basically full healing the entire party every second. Also, healing becomes super "spammy", which was an issue we addressed in earlier versions of the Revamp. Healing is still super spammy, the only thing I've seen you guys done to try and rectify it was to majorly boost the priority heals potency, everything else still has a fairly low output for what these costs are asking for, Rejuvenate costs 250 power, roughly 17% of my power bar and heals for about 8.5k for a non crit, this is only fine because it's a 0.5s cooldown where as ritualistic word, 300 power cost, 21% of my power bar heals for about 5k to four people and has a 3s cooldown. 21% of my power bar for roughly 15% of someones life (average health pool at 201 is 33k) Did you take a look of that controller PoV for Ultimate Solider that I posted?

Your sustained healing vastly outpaces NPC damage, meaning no challenge (you can heal through "stupid" easily). Thus there's no way to provide challenging content. Uh no, not in this version at least, our sustained healing only outpaces NPC damage if we blow multiple "high" costing abilities all at once because they are weak on their own. And healing through stupid isn't done easily by any means if these people are constantly in a state of no awareness you'd have to focus to keep them alive which itself is rewarding content. There are more ways to provide challenging content besides NPC damage especially if there are multiple things we have to be aware of.

If we raise NPC damage to match the insane healing throughput this gives, then NPCs one-shot everyone besides the Tank.

Now a few more points: we are trying to balance the game to provide appropriately challenging content, and to provide choices in play style.
Choices in play style means as a healer, you can focus more of your stats (mods, generator mods, etc.) in power, to gain more sustained healing at the cost of lower burst healing.

That's just it though, there's no way of sustained healing. If I spec for power then the potency of my healing goes down hill a lot. That ends up including any sort of sustained healing, I mean speccing restoration now, my HoTs barely do anything and especially since I'm bound by these cooldown increases, if anything sustained healing basically just means more spamming because I'll have to spam to make up for the lost restoration

This will play differently from a healer who focuses exclusively on restoration for higher burst. This does not mean you put 1 point in power mastery and suddenly have unlimited power.

Well right now it still means I'll have no power because trolls aren't giving me anything.

Fun healing in challenging content consists of a mix of sustained and burst healing,

Sorry, fun healing to me is how it plays out on live, not how it is on test. What you're describing is how live was, on test sure the heartbeats similar but the muscles surrounding it all about to hemorrhage.

and will look sort of like a heart monitor over time (see image below). You have periods of sustained healing, then you respond to a big boss attack with a quick burst of high intensity healing, followed by a recovery period as you shift back into sustained healing. In terms of a rotation, this means you're doing a mix of weapon attacks and your priority heal and four-man heal for sustained healing, unloading your entire bar (maybe even supercharges) for the burst, then rebuilding your power with weapon attacks to be ready for the next spike. Since you don't need to be healing at max efficiency 100% of the time, you will be doing weapon attacks in between heals, which means you should go Hybrid for the better power regen from weapon attacks. DPS on the other hand will always try to be at max performance, hence the support for PftT DPS by adding power to the might stat.

Some last points:

At no point in this Revamp have we ever had feedback that groups have been unable to complete raids Because everyone's using the highest gear possible. Completing the content doesn't mean enjoying it, this is something you guys have failed to consider, while the DPS side is enjoyable for many due to destruction of AMs, you've really missed the bar to how support roles have taken this revamp, I've heard non-stop negative feedback about everything that isn't DPS (because of high power costs or any other reason). Even in PUGS. Even in a 5-1-1-1 composition. If this does happen, it's likely a specific issue with content (NPC's bugged to be invulnerable or 1-shotting players), so please report any abnormally difficult (or easy) content as a bug. For Elite content we expect you to run multiple support roles as needed to beat the content. If you're beating Elites at your level with 5-1-1-1 either your support roles are exceptionally skilled and well equipped, or Elites are too easy .

Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs.

”

5-1-1-1 Group compositions came from content and game design unfortunately, not because players want to chase damage, why would there be a need for extra support roles if the content doesn't pose a reason to use them?

We lost controllers because of AM power refunds and WM power reductions, also a lack of need to CC things why do I need a spare one? Tanks are questionable as some content does need 2, this again is content design, where it's designed the community usually ends up with them. And lastly healers, if the only thing to heal is basic boss attacks and aoes, rather than quick incoming and mechanic driven damage why do I need more than one? You can see this in the latest elite raids, many groups are taking two healers because the content demands it from them!

stärnbock · Jul 11, 2017

the problem is that the power costs are not correctly in relation to the power stat gained the highr the gear gets...

CrappyHeals · Jul 11, 2017

I was going to write out a huge detailed post but after reading through this thread i realize i will be wasting my time like in previous threads on the power consumption issue. To sum it up scaling and the formula used needs to be reevaluated, when increasing CR the gear should provide you with enough power so you are able to keep up with scaling. You should not have to be fully modded and have the best generator mods only to still struggle with power. Power should not be a stat you NEED to invest in when your a healer or tank, any power you spec will be sacrificing your main stat so if you spec power that power should be a bonus not a requirement. And at the beginning of a new tier or when getting new gear if the power cost are this bad fully modded man are players going to be in trouble with power costs while leveling up to the new max cr cause no one mods green/blue and even purple gear in most cases. You wait until you get the best gear to mod it and generator mods take a good while to make cause of the new crafting system so basing power off someone being fully modded is such a huge mistake.

Also for the power players use trolls give out such little power. I thought you were trying to move away from the whole battery trolling thing....well that didn't go well..... all this revamp has done is made it more of a battery trolling playstyle then even before gu36. Now even the healers need 2 trolls lol

Thats all i got in me on this subject, theres so much more but others have seemed to cover it and frankly i don't want to waste anymore of my time beating this subject to death when theres a clear issue and all you have to do to see this is simply play the game. I just hope this time these pages of feedback don't fall on deaf ears.

Charmed Legacy · Jul 11, 2017

Moja said: ↑

“Hey everyone,

I wanted to chime in to try to help us get on the same page with respect to healing, power healing, etc.
Here are some things players have asked for:

Make Roles more important

Make hard content require 2-2-2-2

Make more challenging content

Remove 1-shots from unavoidable NPC attacks

When people said make hard content they meant with more mechanics and environmental issues to pay attention to not handicapping support roles. Also you are making roles less important because they feel like crap and no one wants to do it. I'll give you an example, when our group of testers start discussing raids for later on in the day when everyone will be free people start dodging being the trolls like the plague..
Now, some testers seem to be asking for a solo Role able to heal / power heal / tank through difficult content while at baseline stats (low SP, no mods, no generator mods). Basically, infinite power and the ability to constantly spam the highest cost abilities.

The two positions can't be reconciled.
Here are some problems. Let's use Healers as the best example. If a Healer has infinite power to spam max cost heals without interruption, then:

You don't need Controllers to power heal, because you have infinite Power.

You only need 1 Healer, because you're basically full healing the entire party every second. Also, healing becomes super "spammy", which was an issue we addressed in earlier versions of the Revamp.

Your sustained healing vastly outpaces NPC damage, meaning no challenge (you can heal through "stupid" easily). Thus there's no way to provide challenging content.

If we raise NPC damage to match the insane healing throughput this gives, then NPCs one-shot everyone besides the Tank.

No one is asking to have infinite power in healer stance, not really sure how you arrived at that. On my healer I have a 45k power pool with special forces power gen mods. Consume Souls is a 300 power cost (9381), AcB is 17,648 for the combo, and Divine Light is a 450 power cost for 14,071. In total that's 41,100 power to put out 3 burst/HoTs that has 6 ticks on each HoT. 41,100/45,000 power pool gone just by using the power as intended. How do you not see the problem with this? This is what the healers here are talking about. Then the trolls come in with a power dump of roughly 3,000. That doesn't even replenish 1 of my HoT abilities. It doesn't even replenish my instant heal (Renew) which is a 250 power cost (7817). As I stated earlier to Mepps we don't want just anyone to be able to solo support role making them ridiculously OP, but skilled players should be able to do it NOT at the expense of the trolls or anyone else.
Now a few more points: we are trying to balance the game to provide appropriately challenging content, and to provide choices in play style.

Choices in play style means as a healer, you can focus more of your stats (mods, generator mods, etc.) in power, to gain more sustained healing at the cost of lower burst healing. This will play differently from a healer who focuses exclusively on restoration for higher burst. This does not mean you put 1 point in power mastery and suddenly have unlimited power.
Fun healing in challenging content consists of a mix of sustained and burst healing, and will look sort of like a heart monitor over time (see image below). You have periods of sustained healing, then you respond to a big boss attack with a quick burst of high intensity healing, followed by a recovery period as you shift back into sustained healing. In terms of a rotation, this means you're doing a mix of weapon attacks and your priority heal and four-man heal for sustained healing, unloading your entire bar (maybe even supercharges) for the burst, then rebuilding your power with weapon attacks to be ready for the next spike. Since you don't need to be healing at max efficiency 100% of the time, you will be doing weapon attacks in between heals, which means you should go Hybrid for the better power regen from weapon attacks. DPS on the other hand will always try to be at max performance, hence the support for PftT DPS by adding power to the might stat.
Fun healing huh? Do you find apologizing to your troll every five minutes for your power consumption fun? Do you find it fun seeing people about to die while looking at your empty power bar and soda and supply on cooldown fun? Do you find it fun knowing that if your heals are under-performing this badly and you're this hard on 2 trolls that SM is gonna be a massive sh*t show? There is a big difference in being able to be strategic as a healer and this mess we have here. Solo healing is about making sure you maintain your HoTs to mitigate damage, it's about reaction times on instants/burst heals, its about perfectly timed SC's and shields that save the group. That is what a skilled solo healer should be able to do without spamming and without hurting for power constantly. You're not giving us that. You are giving us watered down heals and extreme power costs that make solo healing a chore and nothing fun about it anymore. I don't mean to come across like an as*, but I main heal and take this to heart where I probably shouldn't.

Some last points:

At no point in this Revamp have we ever had feedback that groups have been unable to complete raids (because of high power costs or any other reason). Even in PUGS. Even in a 5-1-1-1 composition. If this does happen, it's likely a specific issue with content (NPC's bugged to be invulnerable or 1-shotting players), so please report any abnormally difficult (or easy) content as a bug. For Elite content we expect you to run multiple support roles as needed to beat the content. If you're beating Elites at your level with 5-1-1-1 either your support roles are exceptionally skilled and well equipped, or Elites are too easy .

Power costs scale with the item level of your equipment, which is also the only factor in determining your CR (for now). Mods, Generator Mods, and Skill Points have zero effect on power costs. What these do affect is your Power, and thus your regen, and thus your ability to keep up with higher costs.

Lastly at no point ever should a healer, troll, or tank have to sacrifice their main stat and effectiveness for more power to keep up with the insane costs being placed on us. Healers can't afford to sacrifice the restoration with the healing formula as it stands and the bursts/HoTs as weak as they are. Yes, I'm able to solo heal on test. No, we don't have any wipes. Just because I can do it and some others can do it does not mean the role is functioning properly. ”

Memphis Rainz · Jul 11, 2017

CrappyHeals said: ↑

“Powers costs, scaling are messssssed up and need to be addressed.”

As mentioned by Crappy, here lies the REAL PROBLEM.
With increaing our CR we increasing our power cost to much.
For example:
We have loadout: Revenge, Frenzy, E. Chain, G. Eruption, Severe Punishment.
On 170cr we can use this rotation 60 sec until we out of power, but on 201cr we can use it only 20 sec.

All complaints about power cost like "we need more power, we can't spam, we can't play supports with PftT play style" incorrectly at the root.

Moja · Jul 11, 2017

Mighty said: ↑

“Also, @Moja

Your comments here: Stats Revamp 1.7 make it seem like generator mods are factored into power scaling because in the first test the user utilizes Olympian mods, in the second test, which has the same "time to empty" the user uses special forces mods at a higher CR. Does that not mean that mods are required to maintain a status quo of power management per CR gain?”

Power cost: comes from gear, just like CR
Power pool (and regen): comes from gear, mods, generator mods, skill points, etc.

In the test case you linked, you only need to upgrade mods, generator mods, or skill points if you are using those to get Power. If it's just Might or Restoration it's not going to have any influence on your power regen.

So if I use 20% of my mods, generator mods, skill points etc. to increase my power at one level, I will need the same 20% at the next level to keep the same relative cost to regen ratio. Does that make sense?

Charmed Legacy · Jul 11, 2017

mexmex said: ↑

“If you are still solo healing in the revamp, it proves that it can be done easily with two healers isn't? If that is the case why so much complaint about it, is just because they can't spam so often? honest question”

The point isn't about spamming. See my response to Moja, I don't feel like repeating myself.

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